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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: caballero on December 17, 2016, 12:29:18 AM

Title: Vaccines
Post by: caballero on December 17, 2016, 12:29:18 AM
Those bullshits
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: K_F on December 17, 2016, 01:06:41 AM
I have heard so.. then again vaccines have been able to save countless lives.

Like anti-biotics, I see it's limited use in temporary boosting the immune system  ;)
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: caballero on December 17, 2016, 05:20:31 AM
Every time we vaccinate the kid, he takes fever over 39ºC. I wonder if it is really good put so many garbage into our bodies. We live in the prehistory of medicine, I suppose, for the moment is what we have...
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: K_F on December 18, 2016, 12:43:56 AM
A vaccine is the virus/infection but it is a small amount so the body's immune system can overcome it, Thereby registering the virus in it's immune signature bank.
The fever is a normal reaction which should subside after 24 hours. You just have to monitor the kid and keep them cool with a damp cold cloth if necessary.

This can be stressfull for parents of young infants.. but hang in there
Hope all is well there.
 8)
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: caballero on December 19, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
> A vaccine is the virus/infection but it is a small amount so the body's immune system can overcome it

I know it. The current medicine is based on break/infect on the hoping that the body fix the mess, which does not seem very sophisticated. Even it is not a guarantee of success to be vaccinated of something, I have met people who have had chickenpox having being vaccinated against it. A disease that is passed only once in life, but can be manifested later in the form of herpes zoster.

Vaccination fever lasts for more than a day, during which period the defenses are low and the child can catch some type of infection, such as an otitis, etc.

I was only vaccinated with a few diseases and I've never had anything weird. However today they vaccinate the children of dozens of them. And I wonder if the body would know such diseases if it were not for the vaccines themselves.
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: mineiro on December 19, 2016, 09:18:58 PM
I was thinking that this was just a conspiracy theory but sounds real.
They vaccinated old persons on my country to flu or flu variation, some of then don't get good. I was looking some grandmother saying that will never get vaccinated again, that don't trust on these vaccines.
Maybe reaction to mercury (hg) thats used inside vaccines to preserve some characteristics.
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: hutch-- on December 20, 2016, 12:57:25 AM
My generation here in OZ were spiked with everything while we were at school, polio, tetanus, whooping cough etc etc etc .... but the upside was we never had the problems after being vaccinated. I understand the risks and I know that in OZ the mercury preservative was removed in the 1990s due to possible risks but problems were in fact very rare. The risk with the drop off in vaccination is a population re-infected with diseases that have been long gone in the past.

In OZ there was a rigid regime for TB testing which basically eliminated TB but with relaxed standards and Asian immigration, the risk of re-infection has increased. Any medication potentially has risks but in the larger picture, vaccination has reduced a wide range of diseases so they more or less don't exist any longer. Smallpox was destroyed by vaccines on close enough to a world scale and it used to be a terrible disease.
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: PauloH on December 20, 2016, 02:48:32 AM
 Perhaps Caballero would like to see smallpox again or polio spreading out the world. My country, as the mineiro country, is Brasil and in the 70's we had hundreds of polio cases by week in our hospitals. Everyone can check the statistics, they aren't secret.

Mineiro, about mercury (Hg), when you eat fish in our country, you have more mercury than in vaccines! By the way, check this, and if you dont't trust the FDA, CDC blah, blah, blah, search the academic research about this specific subject --> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/ (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/)

I suggest some historical and medical studies about infectious diseases and how vaccines help us to control them.

"Vaccination fever lasts for more than a day, during which period the defenses are low and the child can catch some type of infection, such as an otitis, etc."

Well you can change a fever that lasts for one or three days by those:
http://www.amnh.org/explore/science-topics/disease-and-eradication/countdown-to-zero/smallpox (http://www.amnh.org/explore/science-topics/disease-and-eradication/countdown-to-zero/smallpox)

https://www.google.com.br/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcarrington.edu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F02%2Fsmall-pox-770x392.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcarrington.edu%2Fblog%2Fmedical%2Fvaccines%2Fsmallpox-and-smallpox-vaccine%2F&docid=MNDq4MFZlgeMbM&tbnid=TxqTxleeXavX6M%3A&vet=1&w=770&h=392&client=firefox-b&bih=905&biw=1920&q=smallpox&ved=0ahUKEwjq_KiuyoDRAhWCEZAKHSLWDHgQMwgwKAUwBQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
 (ftp://www.google.com.br/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcarrington.edu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F02%2Fsmall-pox-770x392.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcarrington.edu%2Fblog%2Fmedical%2Fvaccines%2Fsmallpox-and-smallpox-vaccine%2F&docid=MNDq4MFZlgeMbM&tbnid=TxqTxleeXavX6M%3A&vet=1&w=770&h=392&client=firefox-b&bih=905&biw=1920&q=smallpox&ved=0ahUKEwjq_KiuyoDRAhWCEZAKHSLWDHgQMwgwKAUwBQ&iact=mrc&uact=8)

https://www.elsevier.com/connect/remembering-the-dreaded-summers-of-polio (https://www.elsevier.com/connect/remembering-the-dreaded-summers-of-polio)

"In OZ there was a rigid regime for TB testing which basically eliminated TB but with relaxed standards and Asian immigration, the risk of re-infection has increased. Any medication potentially has risks but in the larger picture, vaccination has reduced a wide range of diseases so they more or less don't exist any longer. Smallpox was destroyed by vaccines on close enough to a world scale and it used to be a terrible disease."

It seems the young ones do not understand this very well, so they believe in conspiratory theories about vaccines etc. Conspiratory theories can't protect you against smallpox, polio, measles etc, but I know, some people are not convinced about the vaccines...
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: nidud on December 20, 2016, 02:57:12 AM
The story of the devils are interesting. Cancer wipes out 90% of them where the remaining population are now immune.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/19/tasmanian-devils-developing-immune-response-to-contagious-face-cancer
 (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/19/tasmanian-devils-developing-immune-response-to-contagious-face-cancer)
The sort of hard flip-side of this debate.
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: jj2007 on December 20, 2016, 03:04:11 AM
Conspiratory theories can't protect you against smallpox, polio, measles etc, but I know, some people are not convinced about the vaccines...

Why study scientific evidence if you can believe in something? Some years ago, it was fashionable in Germany that parents organised "measle parties" for their kids - see Pox party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pox_party) for the English version. IMHO such parents should go straight into jail, on grounds of criminal dumbness.
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: nidud on December 20, 2016, 03:23:55 AM
Mumps, measles, and chickenpox are not that serious. Better you get it when your young, like you and I did, than when you old.

TB and polio on the other hand..
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: jj2007 on December 20, 2016, 03:32:34 AM
Mumps, measles, and chickenpox are not that serious.

Measles end fatal, every now and then. As long as it's not your own kid, that is probably "not serious".
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: nidud on December 20, 2016, 03:39:29 AM
Less so than bee-stings. Should we wipe out the bee's just to be sure?
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: caballero on December 20, 2016, 03:47:29 AM
I had measles as a child and I am still alive, I do not remember anything special about it

I agree that vaccines have been instrumental in ending some deadly diseases. Does this imply that we should be crammed with them? I do not know, so I will continue to vaccinate my children, but I am inclined to think that we are exaggerating its use. What about prevention?
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: jj2007 on December 20, 2016, 03:54:28 AM
Less so than bee-stings. Should we wipe out the bee's just to be sure?

Bee stings are the largest killer of humans in the U.S. directly caused by animals. An allergic reaction to the venom is bee’s kills 53 people per year. (https://historylist.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/human-deaths-in-the-us-caused-by-animals/)

from 1956 to 1960, there were an average of 450 measles-related deaths reported each year in the US (http://2020science.org/2015/02/03/risk-dying-catch-measles/)
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: mineiro on December 20, 2016, 04:26:08 AM
Mineiro, about mercury (Hg), when you eat fish in our country, you have more mercury than in vaccines!

It seems the young ones do not understand this very well, so they believe in conspiratory theories about vaccines etc. Conspiratory theories can't protect you against smallpox, polio, measles etc, but I know, some people are not convinced about the vaccines...
Hello sir PauloH, I hope you're fine.
Time to stop to eat dourado, robalo, ... . I know that on vaccines the marcury quantity is tiny. Thanks for that info.
Well, I have my 2 foots on back when talking about vaccines and pills, I don't use these things. When I have headcache because drinks, I just wait the time pass. My parents say to me use a pill like aspirina. No, I don't use. Scientists don't discovered what ends with headcache, simply some substances that cause headcache effect disapear.
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: PauloH on December 20, 2016, 04:27:34 AM
I had measles as a child and I am still alive, I do not remember anything special about it

I agree that vaccines have been instrumental in ending some deadly diseases. Does this imply that we should be crammed with them? I do not know, so I will continue to vaccinate my children, but I am inclined to think that we are exaggerating its use. What about prevention?

Your case is not all cases, this is primary error when people discuss about health conditions -> anedoctal evidence.
Try some reading about Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis related to measles and its consequences. Complications of Measles (https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html). If you do not trust the gov sources, read some Medicine book like Harrison's (http://www.harrisonsim.com/) . There are statistical simulations about infectious disease spreading "inside" an unprotected population.
Prevention? Vaccine is a kind of prevention. Read some book about epidemiology and infections. You'll discover how vaccines changed this scenario. Think about rabies, rubella etc. The consequences of this diseases can be severe in many aspects.

Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: nidud on December 20, 2016, 04:44:23 AM
Should have used "probably" there but it is still a very low number. However, going to the doctor/hospital and get a needle inserted into your body is a risk in itself:

Medical Errors Are No. 3 Cause Of U.S Deaths, Researchers Say

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/476636183/death-certificates-undercount-toll-of-medical-errors
 (http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/476636183/death-certificates-undercount-toll-of-medical-errors)

Quote
medical errors cause 251,454 deaths a year among hospitalized patients in the United States
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: jj2007 on December 20, 2016, 05:08:04 AM
However, going to the doctor/hospital and get a needle inserted into your body is a risk in itself

With a little effort, you will surely be able to find numbers showing how many kids died from vaccinations - and how many lives were saved through vaccinations. An enormous amount of research has been performed on this subject.

To get you started: World population is 7.4 Billion, average life expectancy is 70 years. If there would be no vaccination against measles, everybody would get it once (it's extremely contagious). That means 7.4e9/70 = 105 Million people would get measles per year; roughly 0.1% die from it, so that is 105,000 deaths per year. Now all you have to do is to find the number of persons who die from measles vaccination per year.
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: nidud on December 20, 2016, 05:21:12 AM
Now all you have to do is to find the number of persons who die from measles vaccination per year.

How?
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: MichaelW on December 20, 2016, 06:07:30 AM
Vaccines are a good thing. Consider how many lives an effective influenza vaccine could have saved in the 1918 influenza pandemic. Even during a time when there was much less travel, and the means of travel much slower, compared to today, the infection spread over most of the world and killed something like 50 million people. If we ever have an Ebola epidemic, for example, with no effective vaccine it could kill virtually everyone.
Title: Re: Vaccines
Post by: caballero on December 20, 2016, 07:29:32 PM
Ahh, statistics. Let it be medicines A and B, with results 10 and 12 respectively, more or less same effectivity. We could do the next graphic:
Code: [Select]
  |
12+     **
  |     **
  |     **
  |     **
10+ **  **
  | **  **
  +----------------
    A   B
I am not lying, but my intention is to deceive.

Do you know the possible complications of a flu or an otitis? How many flu or otitis have been classified independent of a vaccine when they have actually been a consequence of it?

If there was a vaccine against Ebola, I would not like to put it, unless this disease was already installed in my country (... hopefully that does not happen ...) even so, I would still be very scared to put it in my body.