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General => The Soap Box => Topic started by: Siekmanski on August 03, 2022, 09:41:47 AM

Title: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: Siekmanski on August 03, 2022, 09:41:47 AM
 :biggrin:  :rofl:

In a crazy World, logical thinkers are very dangerous people!  :bgrin:

UNESCO says it is seriously concerned about the increase in 'disinformation' and 'conspiracy theories'. “Conspiracy theories can be dangerous,” the UN agency warns.
“Often they ignore scientific evidence and polarize society with dire consequences. This has to stop."

The director-general of UNESCO says that conspiracy theories can "damage people, their health".
“They reinforce misconceptions about the pandemic, reinforcing stereotypes that can fuel violence and violent, extremist ideologies,” said Audrey Azoulay.

The UN agency has launched a real campaign to help people recognize, debunk and report (!) conspiracy theories (!) to prevent them from spreading further.

Yes really.  :bgrin:

This campaign is being carried out in collaboration with the European Commission, Twitter and the World Jewish Congress.
The UN has created a toolkit to "debunk" anyone who dares to claim that governments are not fair and transparent.
The UN also warns that George Soros, the Rothschilds and Israel should not be linked to “alleged conspiracies.”
World events "are not secretly manipulated behind the scenes by powerful players with evil intentions," the UN claims.

And if you come across someone who thinks the world elite is plotting to consolidate power or direct events, then you need to take action!
According to the UN agency, if you run into a conspiracy theorist, under no circumstances should you enter into a discussion.
The conspiracy theorist will say 'that you are part of the conspiracy and strengthen that belief'.
In addition, the conspiracy theorist will "probably defend his or her ideas fervently."
That is of course out of the question.

Instead, you should "show empathy", "don't ridicule" the conspiracy theorist, and if you're a journalist, you should "report" him or her on social media and "contact your local or national press council or ombudsman."

https://en.unesco.org/themes/gced/thinkbeforesharing

So you know:
UN declares war on 'dangerous' conspiracy theories: 'World is not secretly run by elites'  :badgrin:
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: jj2007 on August 03, 2022, 09:53:52 AM
The WEF wants us to work less - they portray Italy as a paradise for lazy people, and the Netherlands as a mediocre country where people work too much (pig farmers included). This is a dangerous conspiration theory, where can I signal it to the authorities?

(https://assets.weforum.org/editor/bJhE2-3vQyVJE9hBr1TaTNiF7hIkUENLHtmvx8GhavQ.png)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: Siekmanski on August 03, 2022, 10:04:47 AM
 :biggrin:

> they portray Italy as a paradise for lazy people, and the Netherlands as a mediocre country where people work too much.

That's not a conspiracy theory, just your interpretation.

BTW, Italy received 70 billion euros as a gift, of which 4 billion from the Netherlands. Because of corona.
Now they are renovating their houses with our money.  :thdn:
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: hutch-- on August 03, 2022, 11:26:42 AM
Hi Marinus,

Sounds like they are trying to establish the "Ministry Of Truth" where those in authority know all things and control thought on the basis of their infallibility. Now where have I heard this before ? If you have a good grasp of the middle ages Catholic church history, you could come close to an authoritarian structure of this type but then that style of thought control came unstuck in subsequent generations of enlightenment and the modern Catholic church is a far more moderate institution than from times past.

Now it would appear that some of nominal Jewish persuasion are trying to take up the mantle of thought control. This is evident with the interests that Marinus has mentioned, George Soros, the Rothschilds and Israel. One can only wonder who'se interests are being served with such attempts at thought control.

Lets look at a recent conspiracy theory, we know that George W Bush and Colin Powell always spoke the truth when it came to those weapons of mass destruction that Saddam Hussein had available because they were people in positions of authority but the same weapons of mass destruction have persistently managed to keep hiding from anyone who went looking for them.

With the last 80 years of reported UFO sightings, you have conspiracy theories ranging from smart weather balloons capable of causing mass hallucinations that fooled a wide range of people and a whole range of cock and bull stories about how people were fooled by lighting conditions.

When whichever group succeeds in thought control, you will be able to hear things like - Babies are delivered by the stork at midnight, the moon is made of Swiss cheese, politician always speak truthfully and worse, you will have nothing and be happy (about being cold, hungry, expendable etc etc etc ....).  :tongue:

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: caballero on August 03, 2022, 05:02:24 PM
> debunk and report (!) conspiracy theories

Neighbors can report anonymously, even your children, to be a good citizen. This has already been seen in totalitarian regimes.

Suppose there were harmful conspiracy theories, this should be fought with information and openness, never persecution, if we want to live in a free and democratic society.



> Italy as a paradise for lazy people, and the Netherlands as a mediocre country

The truth is that the countries of southern Europe are bankrupt and live exclusively by issuing debt bought by the ECB. This means that the countries of northern Europe, with better economies, are who are buying our debt, we are socializing throughout Europe the waste of the south. They are keeping us from our standard of living.

I am surprised to see how we have reached this situation in southern Europe, being heirs to the Greco-Roman culture. When northern Europe was a barbarian people, democracy, mathematics, architecture, philosophy already existed in Greece... Really, jj, what has happened to us? I think that in the south we could contribute much more to Europe if we ever get rid of the populists who submit the people to the state in exchange for a small payment.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: jj2007 on August 03, 2022, 06:16:09 PM
BTW, Italy received 70 billion euros as a gift, of which 4 billion from the Netherlands. Because of corona.
Now they are renovating their houses with our money.  :thdn:

BTW, it's a loan, not a gift, and Italy is a net contributor to the EU, just before the Netherlands.

(Hey, I just debunked Marinus' conspiracy theory! Do I get a prime for that?)

(https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/18794.jpeg)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: hutch-- on August 03, 2022, 07:23:02 PM
The curse of Europe is the Euro, where many countries could set their own exchange rate, they did OK but once linked into the Euro, it worked for rich countries like German and France by dropping the Euro value for export, but crippled the poorer countries and left them in a situation where they just keep getting further into debt.

The solution, each country goes back to its own currency not linked to the Euro. Pesos, Franks, Drachmas, Deutchmarks etc ....

A country like Greece could then set its exchange rate based of its produce and tourism, not an inflated value like the Euro that serves countries that are heavily industrialised.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: jj2007 on August 03, 2022, 07:43:45 PM
The solution, each country goes back to its own currency not linked to the Euro. Pesos, Franks, Drachmas, Deutchmarks etc ....

Absolutely, a great solution! It's a shame that New York and California have to help out the poor have-nots in Arkansas, Alabama, Idaho, Texas and similar sh*tholes! We'll get quickly used to California dollars (Cal$), NY$, Ark$, Ala$, Ida$, Tex$ etc :cool:

(I can't nominate you for the Nobel Prize in economics because there is none (https://mronline.org/2022/01/07/there-is-no-nobel-prize-in-economics/))

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/GDP_per_capita_by_U.S._state.svg/1280px-GDP_per_capita_by_U.S._state.svg.png)
Source: Abbasi786786 - CC BY-SA 4.0 (https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=102463828)

P.S.: If that sounds too complicated, one could use only two variants, red and blue dollars:
(https://i2.wp.com/blogs.cfainstitute.org/investor/files/2018/02/Red-States-Blue-States-Two-Economies-One-Nation.png?fit=1200%2C628&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: Siekmanski on August 03, 2022, 08:04:08 PM
BTW, Italy received 70 billion euros as a gift, of which 4 billion from the Netherlands. Because of corona.
Now they are renovating their houses with our money.  :thdn:

BTW, it's a loan, not a gift, and Italy is a net contributor to the EU, just before the Netherlands.

(Hey, I just debunked Marinus' conspiracy theory! Do I get a prime for that?)

No, you don't.  :skrewy:

The Corona recovery fund simply means that Italy will receive 200 billion from the EU, of which 70 billion is a gift.

Dutch parliament, Debunked Jochen at 2:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wps0An3-ig8
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: jj2007 on August 03, 2022, 08:13:19 PM
The Corona recovery fund simply means that Italy will receive 200 billion from the EU, of which 70 billion is a gift.

It would be great if economy were so simple (https://eufactcheck.eu/factcheck/mostly-false-matteo-salvini-recovery-fund-is-a-loan-like-the-esm/) ;-)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: Siekmanski on August 03, 2022, 08:53:52 PM
I wish that was true.  :thumbsup:

Who pays the most per person......
Who contributes more than it recieves.....

https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2016/50/netherlands-largest-net-contributor-eu-this-century
(https://50pluspartij.nl/images/2016/Thema_Europa/Afdracht_aan_EU_netto_bevolking.jpg)

Payment to the European Union per capita; The Dutch pay the most - Chart: European Commission 12 dec 2018
(https://50pluspartij.nl/images/2016/Thema_Europa/Afdracht_aan_EU_per_hoofd_bevolking_European_Commission.jpg)
https://50pluspartij.nl/actueel/2816-europa-begroting-eurolanden-debat-12-december-2018
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: TimoVJL on August 03, 2022, 09:34:06 PM
Economic and Budgetary Outlook for the European Union 2022
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2022/698897/EPRS_STU(2022)698897_EN.pdf
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: hutch-- on August 03, 2022, 10:04:27 PM
 :biggrin:

JJ,

I think you will find that they all use the California or New York dollar. In the US there are poor folks in every state, if you are black or hispanic or any other poor minority group in New York, you can be a s cold and hungry as anyone else anywhere else. The level of coherance in the US is different to the hotch potch in Europe where you have basically tribal warfare between countries that are supposed to be allies.

Forcing Greece to be bound by the Euro trashed their economy, much the same in Spain and Portugal as their economies are structured differently and while having poor countries helping to keep the value of the Euro down for export reasons, it forced them into terrible debt that probably can never be paid back.

If Greece told the EU to go phuk itself and reintroduced the Drachma, their exchange rate would be based on the overall economies performance, not a currency value that worked to the advantage of the big industrial countries.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: jj2007 on August 03, 2022, 10:07:33 PM
the hotch potch in Europe where you have basically tribal warfare between countries that are supposed to be allies.

It's not that bad, Hutch, just the Netherlands, Poland and Hungary. All the others get along quite well.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: caballero on August 04, 2022, 01:05:51 AM
@Hutch

I disagree, and the example is Ireland. While the per capita income levels of both countries were similar not so many years ago. Ireland knew how to seize the opportunity of the EU, while Spain did not. Now Ireland triples that of Spain.

https://datosmacro.expansion.com/paises/comparar/irlanda/espana?sc=XE15
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: hutch-- on August 04, 2022, 08:08:00 AM
I tried the link but it was blocking me unless I accepted their cookies so I left.

Ireland is an interesting case, they got stuck into boosting their economy some years ago and have done well. I am sorry to hear that Spain is lagging behind, most probably governments selling their arse as well as their population. I see the EU as an agency impoverishing populations with the excuse of greening the planet while using it as a measure of population control.

Spain had viable coal mines that would protect it from energy shortages but the morons have shut it down. Its a bit hard to connect that a viable pathway to genuine pollution reduction delivers long term results while shutting things down impoverishes a population.

With this pandemic bullsh*t, I will probably never get to see Spain which is unfortunate as there is much to see there. I have to suffice with good quality video on Youtube these days.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: jj2007 on August 04, 2022, 09:38:31 AM
I see the EU as an agency impoverishing populations with the excuse of greening the planet while using it as a measure of population control.

That was funny, thanks :badgrin:
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: hutch-- on August 04, 2022, 10:12:53 AM
 :biggrin:

The only real problem I see for the global elite undertaking population reduction to get a clean green world, is how to keep enough plebs around to do the dirty work. Can you imagine how difficult it would be for one of the elite to have to clean out sewerage systems or even put the garbage out and that is before processing it in a circular economy ?  :tongue:
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: José Roca on August 04, 2022, 10:13:22 AM
Steve,

Please read informed sources instead of giving credit to misleading stadistics posted by caballero.

It is an economic letter by the Central Bank of Ireland titled "Is Ireland really the most prosperous country in Europe?"

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/economic-letters/vol-2021-no-1-is-ireland-really-the-most-prosperous-country-in-europe.pdf

This link has not cookies, so you have no excuse.

Quote
Conclusion
Ireland is a prosperous country, but not as prosperous as is often thought
because of the inappropriate use of misleading, albeit conventional statistics.
There is less consumption per capita than in the United Kingdom, and on this
metric we are closer to New Zealand, Israel and Italy, than to the United
States, Switzerland or Norway (which is where the GDP comparison would
put Ireland). The same conclusion is drawn if GDP is replaced with the
Ireland-specific GNI* indicator. Using GDP as a measure can mislead analysis
of such matters as debt, carbon-intensity and inequality.

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: hutch-- on August 04, 2022, 10:22:26 AM
Hi Jose,

The situation in Ireland is very well known, compare the living standards in Ireland in the past and the level of improvement is substantial. No economy has a magic bullet and they all have their problems but large scale improvements in the living standard of a population is one of the indicators of successful government policy.

Much the same can be said about China, for whatever problems its economy may have, Xi Jinping has done great things in poverty allevation for the poorest people in China who have often been extracted from severe levels of poverty and subsistence farming to a more urban lifestyle where they have viable incomes.

Much the reason why China has become more powerful is they have been willing to get off their arse and improve many things in the country.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: jj2007 on August 04, 2022, 10:39:29 AM
The situation in Ireland is very well known, compare the living standards in Ireland in the past and the level of improvement is substantial.

Successful government policy? It's the EU that made this happen, and it's not an entirely positive thing, because Ireland chose to become a tax haven (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_as_a_tax_haven), like other small EU States (mainly Lux+NL). Small EU States have a tendency to abuse their smallness, by granting favourable conditions to Apple, Amazon & friends, thus reducing the tax revenue of bigger countries who cannot afford tax dumping.

Malta and Cyprus used to sell their national passports to Russian oligarchs, thus making them EU citizens - a truely parassitarian behaviour.

Luxemburg sits between F, D and Belgium. They sell fuel at slightly lower prices, so that French, German and Belgian car owners drive hundreds of kilometres to save a few bucks, at the expense of a) the environment and b) the bigger states who get less tax return.

(If somebody now jumps in to say "lower taxes are good", thus demonstrating that he can't count to 3 and doesn't know what taxes are good for, no problem, be my guest :cool:)

Quote
The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp) is a tax avoidance technique employed by certain large corporations. The scheme involves sending profits first through one Irish company, then to a Dutch company and finally to a second Irish company headquartered in a tax haven.

See also Gibraltar is no longer a Tax Heaven (https://expatsmagazine.org/gibraltar-tax-heaven/) and
Quote
Is Malta a tax haven country? (https://www.newsweek.com/tax-havens-favorite-millionaires-billionaires-panama-cayman-british-states-1641152)
With a market share of just 0.66 percent but a secrecy score of 62, Malta has long been considered a traditional tax haven due to some of the lowest tax on profits of any country in the EU. While local businesses pay a 35 percent tax on profits, foreign corporations pay as little as 5 percent.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: caballero on August 04, 2022, 05:46:04 PM
> giving credit to misleading stadistics posted by caballero

The economic newspaper Expansión is one of the main newspapers in Spain. The case of Ireland is a widely recognized example of success. I have put it here only to compare it with Spain, since it hooks very well having had such a similar per capita income for so long. I brought this example up to indicate that although the EU were an invention to reduce the value of the currency of the richest countries and thus make them better exporters, the truth is that a lot of wealth has been distributed and Ireland has taken advantage of it. Therefore, other countries could/should also do the same.

I have already seen on other occasions cases of good work criticized by the left, to enter, parasitize it, and destroy it in the name of the people, resilience, climate change, etc.


Lithuania and Cyprus overtake Spain in GDP per capita
https://www.eleconomista.es/economia/noticias/11283506/06/21/El-consumo-y-la-riqueza-per-capita-en-Espana-ampliaron-su-brecha-con-la-eurozona-en-2020.html


I would say that the main reason why we stagnate in per capita income is that many people have been taught to live off the state, which raises prices and taxes indiscriminately. This makes it very difficult to innovate and compete.

Mr Roca used to say the mantra that they usually repeat like parrots: "what has to be done is that the brains that have left return to Spain". So that? to steal from them too? Do you think that someone who has made an effort to have a life outside of here is going to want to come back? to pay you for your luxuries?


> If somebody now jumps in to say "lower taxes are good", thus demonstrating that he can't count to 3 and doesn't know what taxes are good for

Yeah, my fault  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: Gunther on August 04, 2022, 06:53:24 PM
(If somebody now jumps in to say "lower taxes are good", thus demonstrating that he can't count to 3 and doesn't know what taxes are good for, no problem, be my guest :cool:)

Well, for that you counted to infinity and that two times in a row. Who can claim that?
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: José Roca on August 05, 2022, 02:43:02 AM
> The economic newspaper Expansión is one of the main newspapers in Spain. The case of Ireland is a widely recognized example of success.

What I'm saying is that the data posted is misleading because the Irish GDP is distorted by including profits made elsewhere. For example, a multinational makes 10 billions of profit for services provided in Spain, but they declare it in Ireland to avoid taxes. These profits should increase the Spanish GDP, but instead they increase the Irish GDP (on paper only, of course).

Please, read the article of the Central Bank of Ireland that I have posted.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: NoCforMe on August 05, 2022, 11:47:26 AM
Please, read the article of the Central Bank of Ireland that I have posted.
I'm reading it now, and I have to say I'm impressed. For one thing, the author(s) of that article aren't doing the expected thing by trying to make their country look good at all costs; in fact, it's quite anti-booster, which is a good thing.

Important take-away from that article:
Quote
[...] it is extremely common for a single indicator to be used in international league tables, and when it is, either Gross Domestic Product (GDP) or Gross National Income (GNI) is usually the measure used, despite well-known deficiencies in these as measures of wellbeing.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: hutch-- on August 05, 2022, 11:58:20 AM
While I understand what Jose has addressed, sad to say for many governments around the world, tax havens are sucking the tax revenue out of many of them. OZ is a resource rich country but massive multinationals pull huge amounts of money out of the OZ tax base by shifting the profits to low tax havens.

It would take international co-operation to address the problem and many conservative governments around the world would not be willing to shut such tax loopholes as they have too many vested interests in keeping them. The patsies are of course, ordinary taxpayers who don't have a trick to pay far less or no tax at all.

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories can be dangerous
Post by: caballero on August 05, 2022, 06:01:00 PM
I'm not going to waste my time reading that document. Let's say that the per capita income is not as high as the official figures indicate, even so I bet that they are still much higher than those of Spain.

What you propose is to make the Irish way of life ugly in order to raise taxes, which is a good thing, and to do away with what has made it more prosperous. Don't count on me.

If someone does not like tax havens, destroy the tax hells first and it will not be necessary to go there. It is quite simple, but the objective is to raise taxes to manage the money and keep it for myself.

Probably all countries lie with their official figures and Spain is not a model to look at, where there is no way of knowing what its gdp is or its debt or the number of unemployed.