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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: xanatose on July 13, 2015, 07:35:03 AM

Title: Trump for president.
Post by: xanatose on July 13, 2015, 07:35:03 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDtvk9GRrpQ
For those who didn't think he would run :)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: K_F on July 13, 2015, 05:03:23 PM
Nothing like a straight talking president... He might just win..
The mood in the USA might be right for his type of character.

He has hair, charisma and the smooth ability to sell ice to an Eskimo.

Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: hutch-- on July 13, 2015, 06:26:56 PM
If your a Democrat, Trump is manna from heaven.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: dedndave on July 13, 2015, 07:44:42 PM
trump shows high in the polls
but - the polls are badly biased
they are bought by the highest bidder
theory being that a candidate showing high in the polls gets more votes
which is probably true, to some degree

don't pay attention to the polls - lol

trump would make a super-crappy president
he's already made enough statements to prove that
it seems, every time he opens his mouth, stupid stuff comes out   :lol:

as always, we don't really have a good candidate
bernie sanders might seem ok - but it's mostly the typical "election lies", i suspect
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: sinsi on July 13, 2015, 09:00:28 PM
http://www.cracked.com/blog/10-stories-about-donald-trump-you-wont-believe-are-true/
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on July 14, 2015, 12:13:07 AM
I have always wondered if the Donald was in fact a Democratic mole to mess the repubs up...No proof,but makes you wonder...
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Zen on July 14, 2015, 04:41:59 AM
Quote from: VAN
...He has hair,...
I LOVE this one,...it's been characterized as 'cotton candy',...

...And,...SINSI,...excellent post,...HILARIOUS !!!  :bgrin:

Quote from: DAVE !!! FOR PRESIDENT
...trump would make a super-crappy president,...
DAVE !!! How will the Secret Service keep this guy alive ??? We should deport him to Syria on a fact-finding mission,...

DONALD,...
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/6d/6ddb9ab71ed5722b5f5733f0cbef0054d8059f42782f14a8d66989936edfabfc.jpg)

...Still,...I hope he runs,...that'll give late-night comedians ENDLESS OPPORTUNITIES for scathingly, vicious humor,...

This is kind of funny: Donald Trump President, July 13, 2015, The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/donald-trump-president/)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: K_F on July 14, 2015, 04:27:30 PM
I actually think he'll be good for the USA, for probably about 1 term, as it'll shake up the the current political arena that's 'steering the USA down the tubes'.
The one who cr.aps on you is usually not your enemy, but your friend :biggrin:
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: K_F on July 14, 2015, 04:40:38 PM
Looking at that video... you're dealing with a very shrewd  businessman, who knows how to press all the buttons, communicate with the youth and Joe Soap on the street - the political power base.
Whereas other USA politicians I've seen have no connection with their electorate - they just stand there and talk rubbish in practised speeches.

It might be surprising how far Trump goes.. and he could be your next president. :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Zen on July 15, 2015, 03:58:16 AM
I have focused all my psychic abilities on this situation,...:bgrin:

...And, it is CLEAR that Donald Trump doesn't actually want to get elected President,...he just wants to run. He loves the game,...
Also, CLEARLY,...he has an IMMENSE EGO,...and, so,...he desperately needs the global media attention,...
I predict: Trump will amass a vast campaign fund,...and, will spend the entire campaign trying to piss everyone off.
He is CLEARLY extremely talented at that,...and, Americans seem to love it,...:icon_eek:

...Oh,...and by the way,...the perfect running mate for Donald Trump would be: Joaquin "El Chapo" Gusman (http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-el-chapo-sg-storygallery.html).
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: xanatose on July 15, 2015, 04:27:04 AM
I have focused all my psychic abilities on this situation,...:bgrin:

...And, it is CLEAR that Donald Trump doesn't actually want to get elected President,...he just wants to run. He loves the game,...
Also, CLEARLY,...he has an IMMENSE EGO,...and, so,...he desperately needs the global media attention,...
I predict: Trump will amass a vast campaign fund,...and, will spend the entire campaign trying to piss everyone off.
He is CLEARLY extremely talented at that,...and, Americans seem to love it,...:icon_eek:

...Oh,...and by the way,...the perfect running mate for Donald Trump would be: Joaquin "El Chapo" Gusman (http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-el-chapo-sg-storygallery.html).

If pissing both parties off is Donald purpose, then I might as well vote for him.
After all, it worked for Herman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va71a7pLvy8
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: dedndave on July 15, 2015, 06:09:57 AM
i think running mate selection is clear...

(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p527/DednDave/kimjongtrump.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: K_F on July 15, 2015, 07:48:04 AM
He oozes confidence like showmanship that Hollywood or the US media have never known before (although I think inside he's deeply torn)
Why... as he says, he's not answerable to any lobbyist or backer.. and this is, I think, a key feature of his candidacy.
He can say what he wants and when he wants.... maybe not a good thing altogether.. but certainly a shakeup for the establishment.

But you can bet.. the 'rich political backers' will soon be making deals with him... if he gains enough popularity... it'll turn into a landslide
 ;)

Dave.. where did you get that wig from ... :biggrin:
I agree, he must be careful that he doesn't become the BigWig !
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on July 15, 2015, 07:53:18 AM
Sadly if Trump becomes Potus then this country gets what it deserves....(Le sigh)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: K_F on July 15, 2015, 08:13:13 AM
Sadly if Trump becomes Potus then this country gets what it deserves....(Le sigh)
Maybe he might put an end to the world invasions, and start making business deals... you decide  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on July 15, 2015, 08:20:57 AM
Be real,he would sell the whole country for beach front property...and then say "I am the richest person in the whole universe!"
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: K_F on July 15, 2015, 08:38:57 AM
I'm sure he would  :badgrin:... Now be real.. you have no other choice.. other than going down the sewer :eusa_naughty:

OK reality..  Do you think for one moment that he'd get away with that... that same story which he's currently criticizing the present polititians ?
He'd be taken apart by the curlys.... Nope.. he's a smart cookie.. don't underestimate him  ;)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on July 15, 2015, 09:59:49 AM
I watched some of that video, never seen Trump b4. In fact I still haven't seen a speech by any other pres candidate - shows how much I care about national politics. Anyway, I like what he says, for the most part. Only exception, he wants to "take out" ISIS - I don't, in fact I rather approve of ISIS. And, the most important issue facing US is wealth inequality, which Trump doesn't mention - seems he's in favor of it, actually. His main message is, US is behaving stupidly, giving away money, jobs, benefits to everyone - illegal immigrants, China, etc. We need a "tough negotiator" in the White House. Makes sense.

the question what he would actually do if president is somewhat irrelevant. The pres doesn't have the powers that he imagines. Talks about "charging Mexico $100,000 for every illegal", and "charging Ford 35% tariff for every part made in Mexico" - pres can't unilaterally do such things, need Congress etc. Meanwhile any federal judge can negate anything the pres does in 5 minutes - call it unconstitutional. So he seems to have a lot to learn about pres powers.

Perhaps he wouldn't even try, just start stealing as much money as he can. Who knows, who cares? The race is not about substance, rather it's about the message. If any candidate says the things I want to hear (#1, take back the money stolen by hedge fund managers) - I'll vote for him/her even if I know certainly they're lying. If elected it would show what the American sheeple actually want - it's publicity for the cause. If the person elected actually does (rather, tries to do) what they say, that's great. But even if not, the message still got out there.

Notwithstanding Trump, Alfred E. Neumann is still my preferred candidate; unfortunately according to the polls he doesn't have a chance.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: MichaelW on July 15, 2015, 12:22:28 PM
Alfred ran as a write-in candidate in 1956, so 2016-1956+35=95.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: jj2007 on July 15, 2015, 01:18:07 PM
Alfred ran as a write-in candidate in 1956, so 2016-1956+35=95.

Konrad Adenauer was 86 when he resigned in 1963, Giorgio Napolitano was almost 90 when he handed over. So don't discredit Alfred on grounds of age, please :eusa_naughty:
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Magnum on July 15, 2015, 03:41:40 PM
Trump is an arrogant person.

I think Pat Paulson would be a much better president.

Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: K_F on July 15, 2015, 05:34:38 PM
Trump is an arrogant person.

He is.. but he does it with such style and justification that it makes great TV. Other polititians are overshadowed by this  :icon_mrgreen:
Come to think of it, the only time I've seen such arrogance from leaders is when they're in dictatorship mode.. Kim, Hitler..Bush... but at least the USA has checks like Congress and other houses.

When I first saw the link, I thought I'd give it 5 minutes..... I watched the whole d.mm thing... :dazzled:
 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: xanatose on July 16, 2015, 05:07:43 AM
Trump is an arrogant person.

I thought that was a requirement for the position. Is not wise to have a sheep to deal with wolves. Much less when dealing with a bear and a dragon.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: cman on July 17, 2015, 02:47:46 AM
I think Trump ( and his counterpart on the Left , Bernie Sanders ) are basically "protest candidates".  Voters from either base ( Democratic and Republican ) agree with at least some of what these people say , but deep down know these candidates are unelectable in a general election.  Trump is entertaining  , however ( he is so over-the-top arrogant that he reminds me of a "heel" from a professional wrestling program  :biggrin: ).
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on July 17, 2015, 10:54:11 AM
Our new candidate for Prez,got the right attitude anyway.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJ_TWveVAAAC5w3.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: MichaelW on July 17, 2015, 01:13:56 PM
Our new candidate for Prez,got the right attitude anyway.

And consider what a good negotiator he could be.



Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: xanatose on July 17, 2015, 02:55:44 PM
Our new candidate for Prez,got the right attitude anyway.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJ_TWveVAAAC5w3.jpg:large)
Why would anyone want Bush for president again?
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Stan on July 18, 2015, 03:56:08 AM
BUSH?
I thought that was Hilliary.
I gotta get a new monitor, when JEB becomes prez.

Title: Fantastic news!!!
Post by: jj2007 on July 21, 2015, 08:10:05 PM
Poll: Trump surges to big lead in GOP presidential race (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-trump-surges-to-big-lead-in-gop-presidential-race/2015/07/20/efd2e0d0-2ef8-11e5-8f36-18d1d501920d_story.html?tid=pm_politics_pop_b)

Businessman Donald Trump surged into the lead for the 2016 Republican presidential nomination, with almost twice the support of his closest rival, just as he ignited a new controversy after making disparaging remarks about Sen. John McCain’s Vietnam War service, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

Trump was the favorite of 24 percent ... Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, who announced his candidacy a week ago, is in second place, at 13 percent, followed by former Florida governor Jeb Bush, at 12 percent.
Title: Imagine if you will,...
Post by: Zen on July 22, 2015, 04:04:49 AM
Imagine if you will,...:icon_eek:

Donald Trump gets elected President of the United States,...
Everywhere he goes, at all times of the day and night,...he has the Nuclear Football (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/real-story-football-follows-president-everywhere-180952779/?no-ist) in close proximity, in case of a nuclear attack,...

...Then, it is revealed that Donald Trump is in actuality a deep-cover KGB agent,...:dazzled:
Title: Re: Imagine if you will,...
Post by: xanatose on July 22, 2015, 09:47:00 AM
Imagine if you will,...:icon_eek:

Donald Trump gets elected President of the United States,...
Everywhere he goes, at all times of the day and night,...he has the Nuclear Football (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/real-story-football-follows-president-everywhere-180952779/?no-ist) in close proximity, in case of a nuclear attack,...

...Then, it is revealed that Donald Trump is in actuality a deep-cover KGB agent,...:dazzled:
Then he can make friends with Putin Resulting on world peace. :)




Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on July 22, 2015, 06:36:09 PM
That or he sells us to Russia and builds a theme park about Siberia ...in Alaska...You Betcha!
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: dedndave on July 22, 2015, 06:53:37 PM
(http://deadstate.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Screen-Shot-2015-07-21-at-6.49.13-PM.png)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Gunther on July 22, 2015, 07:49:26 PM
Hi Dave,

a funny image, indeed.  :lol:

Gunther
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Raistlin on July 22, 2015, 08:48:17 PM
Could you trust a man married thrice {3} , ending mostly because of infidelity = cheating ?

Strange republicans with their sacred and sacrosanct pseudo-christian viewpoints would
consider him a candidate, representing their viewpoints, morals & ethics.  Mirror images ?

To the NSA: please remove me from your database - it's a tongue in cheek comment and
I'am not a national security threat because I refuse to wear a toupee.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: dedndave on July 23, 2015, 12:51:39 AM
the real problem with trump is not his morals, or even his terrible hair
it's the way he amassed his wealth

typical trump business model:
create a parent company
create a number of subsidiaries
put money into the parent, which then "invests" in the subsidiaries

now, any given subsidiary may be a gain or a loss
if it's a gain, he "wins at the game"
(actually, to be considered a gain, it has to return better than, say, 10% per year of the investment)

if it's a loss, then he drives the subsidiary into bankruptcy
in bankruptcy, the taxpayers carry most of the burden of debt
again, he "wins at the game", this time at the expense of the public

so, win or lose, he comes out ahead
the parent company is protected from the results of the subsidiaries

the republicans seem to think this is a "good guy", if that gives you some idea how they think
not to say the democrats are any better
many wealthy people do the same thing, just not as well as trump has done it
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: xanatose on July 23, 2015, 03:39:41 AM
(http://deadstate.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Screen-Shot-2015-07-21-at-6.49.13-PM.png)
To the trump mobile.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: xanatose on July 23, 2015, 03:51:30 AM
the real problem with trump is not his morals, or even his terrible hair
it's the way he amassed his wealth

typical trump business model:
create a parent company
create a number of subsidiaries
put money into the parent, which then "invests" in the subsidiaries

now, any given subsidiary may be a gain or a loss
if it's a gain, he "wins at the game"
(actually, to be considered a gain, it has to return better than, say, 10% per year of the investment)

if it's a loss, then he drives the subsidiary into bankruptcy
in bankruptcy, the taxpayers carry most of the burden of debt
again, he "wins at the game", this time at the expense of the public

so, win or lose, he comes out ahead
the parent company is protected from the results of the subsidiaries

the republicans seem to think this is a "good guy", if that gives you some idea how they think
not to say the democrats are any better
many wealthy people do the same thing, just not as well as trump has done it

Truth be told, there are no good guys. At least not in any of the two political mafias masquerading as parties. They get eliminated early in the process. What remains are the ones with most ability to do fundraising. Is no secret that the #1 activity of politicians is fundraising. Which is selling influence in government at the highest bidder.

Just as capitalism is based on perception of value, so are the elections.

The game, a winners take all one, always end in two parties representing no one but themselves. And people voting for turd A for fear of turd B and turd B for fear of turd A. A weighted system can take care of that, but as is the mafias the ones that decide when to call an amendment is wishful thinking.

Knowing this, I am going to get some popcorn and enjoy the show. At least candidates like Trump make it a fun one  :lol:
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on July 23, 2015, 04:02:06 AM
As an example of Government being run by Business interests,there is a bill working its way through congress,and what it does is prevent anyone from pushing for transparency of what is in food,in its main it prohibits anyone(Federal,state or local) from making food distributors show if said food is Genitally altered(this bill would disallow even local Gov to make this law) so no one would know what,or where their food comes from. Their argument is that such labeling law(showing where food comes from) would drive up food cost..   

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/14/house-committee-passes-bill-to-ban-states-from-requiring-gmo-food-labeling/30141681/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/14/house-committee-passes-bill-to-ban-states-from-requiring-gmo-food-labeling/30141681/)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: xanatose on July 23, 2015, 04:06:51 AM
As an example of Government being run by Business interests,there is a bill working its way through congress,and what it does is prevent anyone from pushing for transparency of what is in food,in its main it prohibits anyone(Federal,state or local) from making food distributors show if said food is Genitally altered(this bill would disallow even local Gov to make this law) so no one would know what,or where their food comes from. Their argument is that such labeling law(showing where food comes from) would drive up food cost..   

Sounds like something that MontSatan (sorry MontSanto) would push.
I would argue that it would lower the price of GMO foods. Making the profit margin not as high, thus lowering the incentive of using GMO instead of natural foods.

Besides, with the ridiculous surplus of Mexicans, there should be no problems to find people for agriculture.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: jj2007 on July 23, 2015, 04:22:51 AM
food is Genitally altered

I categorically refuse to eat such food :eusa_snooty:
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on July 23, 2015, 07:08:42 AM
"genitally altered"? - instead of using a wooden spoon like normal people, they stir it with their ...
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on July 23, 2015, 08:01:14 AM
Of everyone here,you have such a good eye NaN
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on July 23, 2015, 12:42:31 PM
Well thanks anunitu. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, for a summer job in Boston I scored highest they'd ever seen on a test proofreading technical writing - 200 words per minute. In a way that's not boasting, I'm talking about a complete stranger who died long ago, and has essentially nothing in common with me except the name (today, it would be 50 WPM).

So I've gotten compliments b4 on my eyes, but for some reason the ladies seem to prefer the wooden spoon 8)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on July 23, 2015, 02:11:55 PM
You are a madman NaN..Keep up the good work..
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on July 23, 2015, 04:46:13 PM
also a troublemaker, you know
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: sinsi on July 23, 2015, 06:20:25 PM
Knowing this, I am going to get some popcorn and enjoy the show. At least candidates like Trump make it a fun one  :lol:
It's all fun until someone loses an eye...

The way he conducts his business makes him the perfect President for the modern USA.
Don't forget that the USA is a Republic, not a Democracy. Capitalism all the way! Too bad for the rest of the world :(
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: dc on September 09, 2017, 12:59:06 AM
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
Title: Lock her up!
Post by: jj2007 on September 28, 2017, 10:59:27 AM
Comments on Trump's son-in-law (https://twitter.com/search?q=Jared+Kushner+woman&ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^news|twgr^search):

Quote
I'm just happy that Jared Kushner can finally drive in Saudi Arabia

Turns out he’s the most powerful woman in the White House

(more) (https://twitter.com/chelseahandler)

Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on September 28, 2017, 11:24:07 AM
Icaught that story JJ,he does look a bit frail.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: hutch-- on September 28, 2017, 01:34:03 PM
> Don't forget that the USA is a Republic, not a Democracy.

Unless the US smartens up its act in terms of its economy and stops wasting taxpayers money on foreign wars, it will soon be a banana republic. Invest in Americans and you will build America, keep trashing Americans and you will see its end. Current predictions from American sources say the economy will collapse by about 2020. Then ordinary Americans will be left with the trillions in debt and no means of paying it.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Yuri on September 28, 2017, 01:57:58 PM
Invest in Americans and you will build America
But a capitalist will invest in those who will give him the most profit. Americans want high salaries. Will they agree to live hand to mouth for a few decades to make America great again?

Robots are likely better candidates for the role of American economy saviors. But then, where will the former employees go and what will they live on? They will have nothing valuable to sell in the market as soon as their hands aren't needed.

It looks like capitalism and market economy are coming to an end.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on September 28, 2017, 02:07:07 PM
hutch, some truth to that, but it's going to be a very unusual banana republic. World annual banana production is around 35 megatons. Suppose they were all dropped on Sydney from 30,000 ft. That would be the end of Sydney! Now suppose there were a banana republic with 1000 times that many bananas, and delivery systems capable of dropping megatons of them from a great height on any city in the world within 15 minutes. That's the type of banana republic the US will be in a few decades. Unless you really love bananas, it's a disturbing scenario.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: hutch-- on September 28, 2017, 03:05:58 PM
There was a very old cartoon from an Australian cartoonist who used to produce them for city newspapers and it has the title, "The American Dream". The image was a poverty stricken person ratting a dumpster and holding a drumstick (chicken leg) that has already been eaten and the dream in the mind of the person was a drumstick that had not been eaten. The cartoonist went by the name of Rigby.

Sad to say the poor in the US look very much like this. The US was built by a vast number of hard working Americans over a long period of time but the collection of interests called "The Swamp" which comprise of the military/industrial complex, the parasites of Wall Street, the Pentagon and a number of US security agencies simply don't care about the population and have let the country's infrastructure rot and people go hungry.

It is interesting that "The Swamp" has effectively staged a coup against Trump because he was not willing to play ball on their terms after Hillary lost the unloseable election funded by all of the cockroaches that are sucking the life out of American taxpayers. So much for the constitution when you have a corporate controlled police state that is out of control.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Yuri on September 28, 2017, 03:42:21 PM
There will be no live taxpayers in the future anyway, only robots. The question is whether their owners will agree to feed the population they don't need anymore. Why would they like to feed billions of people who just eat and shit and pollute the environment? Isn't it a waste of precious and limited resources?

Today's huge world population lives on the energy of fossil fuels. It will have to decrease anyway when they end. The energy coming from the Sun is sufficient for several hundreds of millions only.

Which means communism is inevitable, dear comrades. Mankind will be reorganized as a world wide commune. Consumerism will be a crime.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: jj2007 on September 28, 2017, 04:35:34 PM
Sad to say the poor in the US look very much like this.

The U.S. are the richest country in the World, just ahead of Switzerland!

Slightly modified graph taken from Der Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/reichtum-weltweites-vermoegen-waechst-auf-169-billionen-euro-a-1170114.html#js-article-comments-box-pager). For the U.S., there is a staggering difference between average and median net wealth.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on September 28, 2017, 05:26:47 PM
The issue is,what do we do when we have robots doing all the production. If we are concerned  only with profit vs the future of the species,then we condemn the march of humanity to become a dominate force for the future of mankind. If it is only profit,we are doomed to the ash heap of history.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on September 28, 2017, 09:39:34 PM
JJ, that's a very revealing graph. Ratio of average / median in US is 6.2! In Europe, it's typically 2 or 3. US has an incredibly unequal wealth distribution, which is the root cause of all its problems. The top 1% own more than 1/3 and control almost everything, leaving the rest of US population virtually powerless.

Up to about 1973 US was in line with Europe, then it started changing. The rich started stealing all the money. Top 1% holdings increase, almost on a straight line, from about 10% to 34%. (It's probably even more; that's what they admit to these days.)

Why? What's so different about the US?

This question is very important to all of you, because you don't want the same thing to happen to your countries. IF you know the cause you can prevent it.

And, what happens next in the US? Again this is important to you, considering US military and economic power. It's already very dangerous to the rest of the world, but Europe still feels safe. That will change in a few decades. So it's vitally important to understand what went wrong.

So - what's your guess? What key difference(s) between US and Europe (and the rest of the world) is responsible for this collapse of US society, starting some time after WWII?
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: nidud on September 29, 2017, 12:35:30 AM
Still thinks the thirteen warrior concept is the root of all these problems. If you deviate from this logic you end up assigning real power to individuals and thus corrupt the system.

The legal system was design for the people to rule and make judgment on individuals and not the other way around. Laws are ambiguously written for this very reason and is basically just a guidebook for the jury.

As for the man with the funny wig and the wooden hammer at the end of the table: he's just the janitor of the house. When the panel of judges has concluded he's allowed to bang his hammer and announce the verdict of the jury.

This is basically the foundation of whats referred to as western values where societies are ruled by law, by the people for the people and not by commandments dictated from above.

The same apply to politics where the initiative and power to change policies within a political party should come from the grass-root and voted upwards. This means that the candidates shouldn't be allowed to have any opinions about anything.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on September 29, 2017, 05:26:54 AM
@nidud I agree that the jury should judge, and the judge should just sweep up after them. But what's that got to do with the historical fact that US started to go wrong around 1973? I don't recall any change of this nature in the legal system around then. It was screwed up long before. Are you thinking of Miranda v. Arizona, 1966? Or maybe you mean that the political convention system changed so that the candidate became more powerful than the grass roots? But FDR was Emperor way back in the 40's. Seems a flimsy argument. No jury would buy it.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: nidud on September 29, 2017, 06:42:08 AM
I haven't study this in detail so I can only speak from our own situation up here. The erosion of the legal and the political system is not something which happens over night or could be traced to a specific person or event but a gradual decline over time.

Rights are not given so you have to fight for it and continue the struggle to improve and maintain it. The latter is often forgotten when established and the class struggle seems redundant when things are going well.

(http://www.epi.org/m/?src=http://www.epi.org/files/2012/snapshot-unionmembership.png&w=608)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: jj2007 on September 29, 2017, 08:09:47 AM
But what's that got to do with the historical fact that US started to go wrong around 1973?

1973/74 was the first oil crisis, a period in which huge volumes of money started flowing from U.S. gas guzzlers to Saudi Arabia. How exactly that may have triggered unequality, no idea. Oil crisis #2 was 1980/81. Only much later, the U.S. election campaign budgets started exploding, a sign that Big Money was fighting for control of the government.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on September 29, 2017, 08:44:10 AM
It was that oil addiction that started our junkie state. There were even back then options for energy,but the oil money train would not stop,and find other sources of energy. Money is the dealer we visit for our fix.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on September 30, 2017, 04:06:02 AM
@nidud, that's a dramatic graph! The anti-correlation of unions and income is so perfect one suspects fudging. Note, it comes from (presumably biased) "unionstats.com". Nevertheless I can believe it. Of course they want you to think unionization causes income equality. But to significant extent they're both caused by other factors. For instance, as you say, "the class struggle seems redundant when things are going well."

Note JJ's stats are about overall wealth not just income. Wealth is much more extreme, and much more important when you get into the upper 5 or 10%. Thus income going to top 10% is only 50% or so, while wealth is something like 84% (current USA).

The graph shows today is about the same as roaring 20's. But care must be taken comparing the eras. In 20's poor farmers throughout the bulk of the country could get by with more or less zero income, living off the land. Impossible today. The farther back you go the more important to keep this in mind. Inequality was huge in the age of Crassus but most of the Roman Empire had little need of money. Thus a case can be made that effective inequality in US today is worst in World history.

How does this compare, I wonder, to Europe during the same period? Of course the wars distort the data a lot. But can one claim a similar correlation between unions (a.k.a. socialism, even communism) and wealth inequality?

Bottom line: I'm not entirely convinced but yours is a very relevant point.

@JJ, yes oil crisis was a major factor, caused by the Yom Kippur war. Not surprising that a European would forget the other crisis: Watergate. Viewed from here, it looks just as important. I wonder if there are underlying factors linking them.

It was 1976 when I first noticed that Wall St. was beginning to steal all the money. When I started working, fellow students who just weren't good enough to cut it as "real" mathematicians went to Wall St as a consolation prize. My starting salary was about 1/3 higher. Later the starting salaries of new Wall Streeters was equal to mine, after 5 years of big raises! Couple decades later they were starting around a million. Non-financial mathematicians were no longer in the running. Wall St has never stopped that incredible increase. Milliken stole half a billion; decade later, hedge fund managers were stealing 5 billion at a shot; Now Zuckerberg hit 55 billion. 20-30 years will see the first trillionaires.

@anunitu, oil and energy are very important. But in the big scheme of things they are, I believe, red herrings. Notice that when oil prices are up, Wall St steals lots of money. When they're down, Wall St steals lots of money. When people get angry and pass new laws restricting Wall St activity, Wall St steals  a lot of money. Do you see a pattern? They've stolen, directly, at least 10 trillion in these decades. Indirectly, another 20 or so I guess.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: jj2007 on September 30, 2017, 05:49:12 AM
When I started working, fellow students who just weren't good enough to cut it as "real" mathematicians went to Wall St as a consolation prize. My starting salary was about 1/3 higher. Later the starting salaries of new Wall Streeters was equal to mine, after 5 years of big raises! Couple decades later they were starting around a million. Non-financial mathematicians were no longer in the running. Wall St has never stopped that incredible increase.

Rumours say the end of the cold war released a bunch of eggheads who went to Wall Street - another factor. Of course, financial models won't make you rich if you have a thousand dollars to invest. But if you have ten Billions, you can use such models to manipulate the markets. That doesn't create any new wealth for society, but it makes the owner of the model richer very quickly (and the rest poorer, of course).

Once upon a time, the logic of capitalism was "those who work hard and contribute to the wealth of a nation should be rewarded". Now the logic of the system (I wouldn't call it capitalism) is "those who have enough money to distort the markets will take everything". The return of feudalism and slavery is near - but don't worry, panem et circenses is the motto, and slaves will have more than enough iToys to play with 8)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on September 30, 2017, 07:02:04 AM
If they "only" manipulated the markets that would be one thing. But they also manipulate the laws and lawmakers to favor them and destroy competition. Manipulate the public via education, media, immigration policy, dumbing them down. It's a full-out effort to break open the piñata, destroy the society, grab every last penny. What happens when the sheep are totally shorn? The circuses stop but more important so does the bread. In about six decades you can expect total collapse in 90% of US. And Europe is not invulnerable.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: felipe on September 30, 2017, 09:34:40 AM
There will be no live taxpayers in the future anyway, only robots. The question is whether their owners will agree to feed the population they don't need anymore. Why would they like to feed billions of people who just eat and shit and pollute the environment? Isn't it a waste of precious and limited resources?

Today's huge world population lives on the energy of fossil fuels. It will have to decrease anyway when they end. The energy coming from the Sun is sufficient for several hundreds of millions only.

Which means communism is inevitable, dear comrades. Mankind will be reorganized as a world wide commune. Consumerism will be a crime.
:P
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: hutch-- on September 30, 2017, 10:38:00 AM
 :biggrin:

I have long ago had the solution to Wall Street and something that needed to be done back in 2008. Put a plank off one of the tallest buildings on Wall Street, get each merchant banker with their finger in the pie and use a cattle prod to force them to walk the plank. Set it all up as a spectator even at the ground level with true capitalists taking bets on the volume of the SPLAT and after asset stripping these parasites there would be enough money to pay a team with steam cleaners to quickly clean up the mess and send it off to a fertiliser factory to at last make a use of these bastards.

Set up the advertising as "See them come down in the world" with free entry to the event and it would be a smash hit (all puns intended) with the dispossessed.  :biggrin: It could also be described as "Wall Street in free fall".
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Yuri on September 30, 2017, 03:13:08 PM
The return of feudalism and slavery is near - but don't worry, panem et circenses is the motto, and slaves will have more than enough iToys to play with 8)
Why would you need slaves if you have robots? A robot can work 24/7 and won't revolt. Also compare the times needed to make a robot and to grow up a slave. If you need educated, skilled slaves, the difference is even greater. As soon as you have taught one robot to do something, they all can do it because you just install the software to as many of them as you need. It's not nearly as easy with humans.

Hardware modification is only possible with robots. You can't attach a third arm to a human slave or change his size even if he needs it to do his work better, but you can do it to a robot.

Maybe you would only need sex slaves or gladiators for circuses. Something like that.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: hutch-- on September 30, 2017, 03:26:23 PM
 :biggrin:

> Maybe you would only need sex slaves or gladiators for circuses. Something like that.

I gather that robotic sex slaves have improved a lot lately, they never complain, don't grow old and fat, never nag at you and require no serious maintainance.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: K_F on September 30, 2017, 06:58:51 PM
Yup.. Gravity will never affect those slaves  :icon_mrgreen:
Just think.. you'll only have to push the 'on' button after guzzling a few beers while watching a match  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on October 01, 2017, 01:44:49 PM
Looks like you guys have the answer to all the USA's problems!

1) Banksters: make them walk the plank, KILL THEM ALL.
2) Everybody else: keep a few for sex slaves and gladiators. Apart from that, KILL THEM ALL.

Not politically correct, but at least your solution will work. As Saddam Hussein once said: Where there are no people, there are no problems!
One minor issue: how to implement your strategy? But you've figured out the big picture; leave the details to lesser minds.

Now here's the next question: how to fix all the problems of Europe, Australia, and South Africa?
I bet the masm32 Think Tank can answer it off the top of their heads!
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: hutch-- on October 01, 2017, 04:04:19 PM
 :biggrin:

Aha, the swamp has got at you.  :P

> Looks like you guys have the answer to all the USA's problems!

That is probably fair, the powers that be in the US seem to think that they have all of the world's problems solved. (Bomb the phuk outa them and call the results collateral damage)

Fortunately for those of us who are not the targets of the US police state, we can support our friends in the US (the 99% of the population)  who are also economic collateral damage without having to kiss the arse of the elite.  :dazzled:

Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Yuri on October 01, 2017, 06:15:28 PM
Looks like you guys have the answer to all the USA's problems!

1) Banksters: make them walk the plank, KILL THEM ALL.
2) Everybody else: keep a few for sex slaves and gladiators. Apart from that, KILL THEM ALL.

On my part it was not a solution but a prognosis. Has human nature improved since the times of ancient Rome? If not, then anything is possible. Also, I was thinking globally, not just about the US.

The upper classes have always needed the lower classes — for food, service, protection — but this time seems to be ending with the advance of robots. People don't seem to recognize this change and its consequences.

Not only most hands, but also most brains will be replaced with artificial ones. Where will the former workers go and what will they live on?

In the USSR it wouldn't have been a problem, since all plants and factories belonged to the entire nation. If they had been fully automated, OK, people just wouldn't have had to work, and the product would have been divided among all of them more or less equally.

What about a capitalist state? How is it supposed to solve this issue? Is private property still sacred or not?

How can capitalism and market economy survive in such circumstances? I don't have an answer. It seems they can't survive.

Market economy is based on people selling something they have so they can buy something they need. Most people now sell themselves as workforce. As soon as there is no demand for it, they will have nothing to sell and the market will disappear.

Who will feed, clothe and shelter those people from the cradle to the grave? Apparently the state. How will it obtain the resources needed? It will have to nationalize either most of the product or the entire economy. The solution is obviously socialism/communism.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on October 01, 2017, 10:04:13 PM
All that you say is true,but the outcome is dependent on human beings not acting normally. Sadly,normal human reaction is not always caring and helpful. Many people would only consider their own personal needs. It "Might" be that robots become "Aware",and display more concern for their creators and become the "Masters" and we their beloved "Pets" Go fetch!
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: nidud on October 01, 2017, 11:27:19 PM
(https://africageographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Nyiragongo-Volcano-no-credit.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on October 02, 2017, 12:27:50 AM
Is that a basket I see falling so fast into that burning hole?
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on October 03, 2017, 04:08:12 AM
Aha, the swamp has got at you.
My attitude hasn't changed, here in the belly of the beast. I've been telling you this sort of thing for 5 years or so, telling others for decades
Quote from: hutch
Fortunately for those of us who are not the targets of the US police state
Famous last words
Where will the former workers go and what will they live on?
Who will feed, clothe and shelter those people from the cradle to the grave?
When push comes to shove nobody's going to feed them. Evidently there's only one solution. Sooner or later it will occur to the powers that be
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: hutch-- on October 03, 2017, 11:26:17 AM
> Famous last words

Perhaps not last words, at the rate that the US is collapsing as other countries ditch the USD$, its only a matter of time until the sheer cost of trying to control the world brings the US to it knees and it give up smashing small countries and massacring their populations. This is not without its benefits as the USD$ will dive which will knacker the corporations that have been outsourcing American jobs and the price of American labour will start to make American manufacturing competitive again.

I only support the 99% of America (Main Street), its government is owned and funded by Wall street and its security services have gone off the deep end, the FBI are still into little boys, CIA black ops are funded by drug money and Homeland Security kiss the arse of the corporations that are phuking the US. Now the smart money either goes north if you can tolerate the cold and Canadian senses of humour or "él, hombre" improve your Mexican Spanish and head south.  :P
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on October 03, 2017, 12:14:08 PM
I am getting to old for this chit!!
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on October 04, 2017, 02:51:48 AM
hutch, you don't seem to be getting my point.

What do you expect the US to do when the dollar starts crashing and its influence in most of the world disappears? We're not going to Canada because it's too cold, nor Mexico because it's too crowded. Historically when a country loses its pre-eminence it just sort of fades away. Like Greece, Rome, Spain, UK, many more ex-champs. But USA has a huge number of nukes! For decades we (or "they", really) haven't used them, have even promised never to use them (first). But that's because we get what we want without them. With conventional forces, and/or with money. When those methods fail, USA will IMHO not hesitate to pull out the big guns. The rest of the world, including OZ, will be the target. At first it will work as follows. USA will peg value of dollar at the old pre-collapse value, thousands of times greater than it's really worth. Then demand that OZ exchange real goods for this worthless currency. When you refuse the threat will be invoked. And so forth.

USA will not go quietly! Those nukes will be used to maintain dominant position, when all else fails.

Now I hope you finally understand my point. If you disagree that's fine, I won't argue: you may be right, who knows, wait and see.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: anunitu on October 04, 2017, 03:42:33 AM
What is happening here in the US,reminds me of the old Russia collapse. The Russians were trying to hold on to Afghanistan against the majahadin(sp) and we (the US) were backing that group against the Russians. Now we are trying to hold Afghanistan,and it is reported that the Russians  are helping the Taliban against US. It might smell like payback,it might be history repeating itself We may need to pull back,and let Russia wade into that deep freaking swamp(tar pit) we were mired in for so long.
   
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: Yuri on October 04, 2017, 04:00:26 AM
The rest of the world, including OZ, will be the target.

Australia should start negotiations with North Korea for protection against the US.  :icon_cool:

and let Russia wade into that deep freaking swamp(tar pit) we were mired in for so long.   

But what for? I think Putin is smart enough to have learned the lesson.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on October 04, 2017, 10:07:56 AM
@Yuri, that's ridiculous, N. Korea has no power at all. I expect China and Russia to get along well (brought together by common enemy) and lead the other side, against US/Israel. Neither is very expansionist. They're just going to want to control countries on their borders and re-establish their traditional spheres of influence. Places like Tibet, Taiwan, Korea etc will be solidly in China's sphere. Ukraine, Poland, and (in general) former USSR nations had better get along with Russia. Japan (and S. Korea) will be a bone of contention with China, and Western Europe, with Russia. These places are currently in US camp (the so-called free world) and will have to decide which way to go. But if WWIII starts, it will start in the Middle East.

Australia is in a great out-of-the-way position "down under", but sooner or later it too will have to choose between the "free world" and China. Get used to the idea of a "yellow invasion". Long-term you can't stop it, just make sure it's peaceful.

You've seen how US behaves for decades now. You've heaped scorn on them. You seem to expect Trump to start WWIII with some random twitter message. No, US will be stable for quite a while. But given recent history, how you can calmly expect it to go away quietly is beyond me. Just a short while ago they were viciously slaughtering Europeans, and confronting Russia with nuclear holocaust. Not to mention Japan, Vietnam etc. And surely you can see the long-term plans for the Middle East.

If you disagree, fine, maybe you're right. But simply getting my point across seems hopeless. Fortunately Putin and Xi Jinping are different: not dummies. No doubt they're well aware how situation is developing.

@anunitu, you're right US should get out of Afghanistan and hope Putin is dumb enough to get back in. But neither is likely. I'm disappointed to see Trump getting in deeper but even if he were sensible, future US presidents won't be.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: hutch-- on October 04, 2017, 10:54:22 AM
rrr,

I actually do get where you are coming from but being outside of the main stream media driven bubble I get to see and hear things from many places that would be rarely accessed from folks in the US. Noting again that I only support 99% of people in the US, the remaining 1% are making a mess of what they are doing and have succeeded in destroying the previously held high regard the rest of the world had for American law and history. Smashing small easy target countries has not won the US any friends and the 99% of Americans have no say in what gets done so they cannot fix it yet they get the blame for the excesses of the 1% who simply do not care about how much damage they do to the US.

As you would be aware, the old Soviet under Stalin suffered the most casualties during ww2 (well over 20 million people) with Operation Barbarossa and the lesson was well taken that they will never allow it to happen again. From past Russian history, the Teutonic knights tried to invade Russia but they ran into "Alexander Nevsky" and a determined defence of the Russian homeland. In recent example during ww2 it was Russia that drove the panza divisions back from Kursk to Berlin and effectively Russia defeated the Nazi occupation of Europe. Can you imagine how much more difficult the western defence of Europe would have been if Hitler had not tried to invade Russia ?

To put this in a modern context, any country that tries to intimidate Russia is in for a very rude shock, the US has a very powerful military but its suffering from exactly what the European and US have foolishly thought about the Russian military, their hardware is getting old and is fast becoming out of date, their personnel are being treated like expendable trash and it is simply being used a a financial hammer by the 1% who still think they control the world. Fortunately for the rest of the world, the world is again a multi-polar world where no single country has the type of power that the US has had since the end of ww2.

In contrast the Chinese have used diplomacy and money to end up having good trading relations with much of the world and in 3rd world countries they build road, railways, hospitals, schools and give something back where the IMF, World Bank deliberately destroy countries by trashing their economies, asset stripping their resources, companies, state owned assets and the like.

I take your point that a desperate US may do much the same as Russia after the collapse of the old Soviet and rely on their stockpile of ageing nukes but then there is no country interested in invading the US, most of them just want the US to stop trying to interfere in their internal affairs by force.
Title: Re: Trump for president.
Post by: rrr314159 on October 04, 2017, 12:30:38 PM
@hutch, Ok you see what I mean, that's all I wanted. I don't have a crystal ball and can't really support my opinion, so there's nothing to argue about. When push comes to shove I think these scumbags will fire off the missiles. Arabs have a really fine saying "don't poison the wells". That is, even if you lose the battle or war, leave the environment intact. US/Israel powers-that-be never got that memo. Their attitude will be "if I can't have it, nobody can". If they're losing, as a final act, they'll nuke. Or at least use that threat to get what they want. By then, everyone will know it's not a bluff!

Well, the younger generation will find out. I'm outa here b4 the sh*t hits the fan!