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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: caballero on February 23, 2016, 01:42:11 AM

Title: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on February 23, 2016, 01:42:11 AM
England has demonstrated along the centuries to be able to overcome adversities. Nobody know what will be the referendum result, but the only need to rethink its situation within Europe is a matter to the reflexion, I thik.

Here are three reasons (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/11968813/Three-reasons-why-Britain-needs-Brexit.html) to britains for Brexit. Maybe I could resume all of them in this:

* Major control of immigration
* Distrust on the EU economic situation.

In any case I wish them all the best of luck.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 23, 2016, 07:14:24 PM
Well, this is the great day, I guess. Surprisingly it is hard to find any reference of that in media
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: rrr314159 on June 24, 2016, 12:29:51 AM
Brexiting may be more dangerous than you think! I'm in favor of it. Of course there will be some economic dislocations, but they should be pretty minor. Within a year or two Britain will be better off - except for one thing.

The last thing the Eurocrats want is to see Britain successfully exit! Everyone else will follow their example. So, in a year or so, when it starts to look like brexiting was a good decision - they will attack. They'll use every possible means, fair or foul, to make UK fail.

That's the hidden problem, and the reason why it will take a lot of that famous English courage and perseverance to pull this off. It will be much more difficult than it looks because everyone's ignoring the fact that EU will actively try to ruin them, as an example to the other slave states.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 24, 2016, 01:17:06 AM
If I were British, I probably would vote for Brexit, otherwise it would be a lost opportunity face to the future looming.

In southern Europe are triumphing policy options that aim to significantly increase spending with the aim that northern Europe pay the bill through the ECB. Added this to the huge debt situation that already exists. But it seems that many people are delighted with this idea. I think that Mediterranean countries, where the Western civilization was borned, could have done much better.

As for many other countries follow the UK example. If I'm not wrong, at least in Finland there are already plans to do the same.

I have no doubt that due to the British courage character, they would soon recover its economy. Though it is possible that trade barriers were established. Without losing sight of the huge debt of British state.

On the other side, there's a no minor problem, with the fact that it seems that Scotland pretends to remain in EU thought UK don't.

Anyway, I think that the European project is already waste, though still not visible. A shame, I think it was a great idea.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: jj2007 on June 24, 2016, 01:25:37 AM
They'll use every possible means, fair or foul, to make UK fail.

Since the days of Maggie T., UK has used every possible means, fair or foul, to make the EU fail. That is why some people here will not cry bitterly if they say goodbye. Besides, "London" has acquired a connotation of casino capitalism that does not really evoke sympathy on the continent. The UK doesn't produce anything useful, they are just gambling with our money - that is the impression the average French, German or Italian cultivates after 40 years of having the British on board :(

One really odd thing is that the only chance for a successful brexit, after months of incessantly hammering anti-brexit campaigns, are tactical pro-brexit votes from the Scottish, who see a brexit as the only chance to rid themselves of London, through a second referendum. And of course, the media are campaigning against that option, too. (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/25/brexit-vote-scotland-out-uk-scottish-independence)

As to the dire economic consequences of a brexit: Yes, the laws of the market will cease to work immediately after a brexit. Plus, Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW will force Merkel to introduce high tariffs to protect themselves against British car manufactures, then [... fill in more crap here ...]
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: rrr314159 on June 24, 2016, 04:14:12 AM
jj2007:  "London" has acquired a connotation of casino capitalism that does not really evoke sympathy on the continent. The UK doesn't produce anything useful, they are just gambling with our money ...

Sure I won't argue with that. At least, that's certainly the way it seems.

You guys don't quite get it when I say "any means fair or foul". That doesn't include only sharp, unethical, even illegal, economic maneuvers. For example it could include assassination. They would even assassinate one of their own, in order to blame it on Britain (or some other enemy). These people are playing for keeps.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on June 24, 2016, 11:46:28 AM
 :P

Look for the rouble, shekel, quid or buck behind it all and you will find where the action is. Pulling the strings for most of the currency is the murky global banking cartels who use the threat of destroying the economy if the government and population does not play by their rules. I have never supported the EU as I see it as an arrogant and dictatorial organisation that continues to use any method it can to support big money (the aforementioned banking cartels) at the expense of reducing populations to non voting serfdom.

I hope the English can buck the system and succeed in freeing themselves from this form of external control. I am not a globalist but a fan of independent countries that can isolate themselves from the excesses of world market fluctuations. If you look at who and what are supporting the REMAIN campaign, you have good reason to support the LEAVE campaign.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: rrr314159 on June 24, 2016, 01:32:31 PM
Well looks like they did it, 51 to 49 in favor of BRexit. No doubt the banking cartels got short before everyone else
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on June 24, 2016, 02:25:47 PM
Banks have hit back already attacking the English pound. The English now need to R_Soul Cameron and elect a government for the English.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 24, 2016, 04:55:41 PM
World is a wonderful chaotic system, as I see.
Quote
"London" has acquired a connotation of casino capitalism that does not really evoke sympathy on the continent
Don't know. London was always Eurosceptic, maybe for a country that dominated a big amount of the world centuries ago is hard accept losing sovereign. Nevertheless, I guess that this is not the question here. As for I've heard there are other countries that want to follow the London way. If I'm not wrong it sounds hard the names of Finland and The Netherlands. More over, it's important to realize that they voted Brexit even with the risk of losing Scotland.

But the party does not ends here. This Sunday, there are general elections in Spain, where there are real posibilities of reaching to the gov "Podemos", the equivalent of Syriza in Spain. With the same ideas: more spending payed by others, even using blackmail to the UE, as Syriza did. By the way [ironic] do we know anything of Greece this days with Syriza? [/ironic]

I do like the European project. The world's economy is dominated by "continents": North America, Southern Asia, with possible tendency to dominate the market. The European Union was necessary, that never liked to the United States, by the way. More over, there was many world wars started in Europe, it was time to do something constructive together. If I'm not wrong, Airbus engines are british if I'm not wrong (not useful?). Besides, to have a voice in the world, it is necessary to understand each other in Europe. Otherwise we will have to accept the fact that it is done what others say.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on June 24, 2016, 06:55:21 PM
Cameron has fallen on his sword and the English have just made a decision at last that may even serve their interests. Perhaps we will see some changes where the wealth of the country will stop funnelling into the pockets of the 1%.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: Mikl__ on June 24, 2016, 07:04:48 PM
(http://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/2016/03/13/7/145786459516483930.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 24, 2016, 07:18:53 PM
Ha ha, Mikl__, it is very funny, except for the fact that I cannot read a word in russian! (http://www.en.kolobok.us/smiles/light_skin/dash3.gif)
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: Mikl__ on June 24, 2016, 08:20:54 PM
1) GB - Excellent! Finally I went out. That misunderstanding only hindered me. Again, I can enjoy full sovereignty
EU - You still don't need for us
2) EU - Wait! I'm from the future. You must go back. Without you, everything went awry!
3) Germany lost her job. France adopted Islam. Belgium died. Italy? nothing happened with Italy. Poland flew into space, never to return. Sweden replaced. Holland became boring. (Drugs is an evil I have now for a healthy lifestyle!). Spain and Greece have been imprisoned because of debts
4) GB - Ha ha, I always knew you were nothing without me.
5) EU - But I'm not talking about you.
GB - What you said?
6) EU - He's such a cutie!
Scotland - Let go of me, damn AngloSaxon! I want to join their gang!
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 24, 2016, 08:32:11 PM
aha, much better now, thank you :biggrin:
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: Siekmanski on June 24, 2016, 09:31:46 PM
Holland became boring.

That's certainly true. Once we were a very tolerant and happy nation.
Now we have far too many unnecessary and patronizing rules.
Holland is now dull.....
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 24, 2016, 09:58:45 PM
Can we reverse this situation? Could we save the EU? It's not easy, but I think that we can do it. It's time for a real politician leading this time and turning a light in the darkness. Population should not be held hostage by politicians, we must take our voice, the most honorable gesture of Cameron, in my opinion.

Why has UK left the EU and why others may leave it too?
* Loss of sovereignty
* Overspending by countries members
* Excess of immigration

First, we have to decide what we want the EU must be and then ask for each of these points in each country member. No matter that may lose members, the most important thing is that whatever remains, be strong and with solid foundations.

* Loss of sovereignty. It is logical that whoever want to be in the club will have some loss of it.
* Excess of expenses in countries members. In my opinion, no one should be let do it, really now. This is easier to say than to do, because many countries are in a debt limit situation, from where they cannot leave painlessly.
* Excess of immigration. I don't remember voting to remove the EU external borders, but it is de facto, for more than 30 years. Citizens have to opine about this.
* Restoring confidence among countries members. Nothing less.

I think that's all I can say about this

[One more thing]. Europe should not stand after the Brexit, as a lout, instead, it should accuse the coup, because as is it was, moving in a direction that makes attractive the European project and, of course, not involve in trade wars with UK.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: mineiro on June 24, 2016, 10:25:32 PM
Quote
* Excess of immigration. I don't remember voting to remove the EU external borders, but it is de facto, for more than 30 years. Citizens have to opine about this.
Good point, from my knowledge europeans don't like to do heavy duty work, works that need arms. And this opened a hole to foreigners immigrants. But now immigrants can be neighborhood inside Euro zone.

Well, they voted to brexit. I think is not the best time to others countries get out of euro zone. This time have a lot of unemployment to adjust situation, but big companies will transfer things to other countries on Europe, like JPMorgan bank, remove from one side and put to other. This can be good to countries on euro zone.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: sinsi on June 24, 2016, 10:56:18 PM
It's the beginning of the global bank government with the US silently annexing the UK.
or
It's the beginning of the end of globalism as countries withdraw upon themselves i.e. isolationist.

History, man. Statistics, even :biggrin:
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: nidud on June 24, 2016, 11:04:17 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClrQUuCUgAAUo_d.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: anunitu on June 24, 2016, 11:33:33 PM
Is the figure with all the stars supposed to be the US,or am I not following this at all.?
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: Siekmanski on June 24, 2016, 11:38:51 PM
Is this the beginning of the end of the European union ?
The people are done with all the lies and dirty games.
Is it wise to remain ? I don't know anymore.

What's next - Nexit ?
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: nidud on June 25, 2016, 12:02:46 AM
The main argument against joining the union up here (we had two referendums) was the currency union. This will not work without a political union so the United States of Europe has to be implemented for this to work.

The problem now is that the currency union is implemented without a political (transfer) union so the whole project has already failed. The technical problem of transfer funds from the rich to the poor states is solved by issuing loans to payback loans issued by…

As the lack of democratic will among the states to implement a political union prevent this from being solved the accumulated debt as a result of this silly compromise (or a fascist engineering scheme?) increase.

The only option left is then more integration, more centralization, and more globalisation. The end result is then more corporate control and less democracy.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: xanatose on June 25, 2016, 12:22:03 AM
Congratulations to Britain on its independence day.  :t
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 25, 2016, 02:10:07 AM
Is this the beginning of the end of the European union ?
The people are done with all the lies and dirty games.
Is it wise to remain ? I don't know anymore.

What's next - Nexit ?
Tell me you. I think The Netherlands and France are already calling for another referendum, am I wrong? Apart of Finland, that if I'm not wrong, some time ago said to do the same. But if you insure that no, I'm calmer
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: anunitu on June 25, 2016, 02:46:22 AM
Bit hard to follow for me,I have not been paying attention because of all the TRUMP media splash here,might have paid more attention if not for all the clown antics going on here in my homeland...Waves to Europe...Hi guys..sad we are not alone in our meltdown...
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: jj2007 on June 25, 2016, 02:52:41 AM
I don't see other *xit candidates right now. The Netherlands sit right in the heart of Europe, Wilders can mobilise only a small minority of dumb**ses but the Dutch are very reasonable people. Finland? Out of love for Putin maybe?? No way.

Brussels has to learn a lesson, of course. Oh btw, Hutch, where is that utterly important "wanna cookies" script that EU legislation forces on you as the owner of this site, and on us as users? I'd love to get the name and address of the EU official who cooked up the cookie, so that I can meet him and transmit to him my very personal appreciation of his idea 8)
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on June 25, 2016, 11:18:17 AM
The only cookies the site uses is for people who chose to log in and stay logged in. This site is in OZ and the EU legislation has no effect here.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: Mikl__ on June 25, 2016, 01:42:53 PM
When the disintegrated Soviet Union (21 countries), Czechoslovakia (2 countries), Yugoslavia (7 countries), Sudan (2 countries) these problems, probably few people worried about? The majority of people in the European Union and the United States were only happy from these events. The European Union also fall apart, it is only a question of time, dates and timing ...
In order not to change the flag of the European Union from 27 stars - will take Turkey instead of Britain, this country has long been waiting for their turn to enter the European Union ...
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: anunitu on June 25, 2016, 02:06:22 PM
Ok,kind of get the stars now...Did not know the EU had a flag with kind of OUR image using stars and stuff.
(http://eeas.europa.eu/csdp/structures-instruments-agencies/eu-military-staff/images/eumilitlogo.png)

You know how self centered us Americans are..
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on June 25, 2016, 02:48:06 PM
I basically see the EU as a big banking based scam where control of the entire economy of Europe was subject to centralised control by Brussels. It has impacted badly on the economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain, a range of Baltic countries as well as the UK and the only beneficiaries were the industrialised countries like Germany and to a lesser degree France but in both cases only their already very rich while decimating the middle class. Driving the starving masses into serfdom may be a Bilderberger aspiration but as the general European population wake up to the scam, the resistance is growing.

The penny dropped for me when Barossa was gloating about being able to override the votes of entire country populations when they did not support what the EU wanted. With the UK out, perhaps Greece will follow and a host of other countries being impoverished by EU policy. Europe used to be a great place and a tourist destination for people from around the world. Another gain from the demise of the EU will be the end of NATO, a clapped out anacronism from the cold war era that should have been disbanded when the Warsaw pact collapsed.

There is no reason why Europe should not have good relations with Russia that includes economic and military security issues. Communism is dead in Russia and if the collapse of the EU continues, Fascism will die out in Europe leaving room for sensible negotiations between all parties involved.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: jj2007 on June 25, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
Hutch,

I was just joking about the cookies :P

The European Union was and is a good idea. We have had over seventy years of peace over here, with a notable exception in the not-so-United Kingdom (you know, that union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that just voted to leave the EU).

Main problem is that it's no longer the union of Schuman, Churchill, Hallstein, De Gasperi, Delors and other fathers of Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_fathers_of_the_European_Union). Delors had a vision, he was the architect of a better Europe, but among his followers, the Italian guy was doing ok but two other ones were known more for their serious alcohol problems (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fASN9oYGdw) than for having brilliant political ideas. Besides, in recent decades Europe (and everybody else) is under the attack from the financial sector (sitting in London and NY), and from a handful of big industrial players. National governments and the EC are not in the best positions to defend their citizens, plus it is not always clear if they really want to defend them (google for amazon juncker or barroso latsis to get an idea...). Nonetheless, I am still convinced that the great majority of the EU apparatus in Brussels believe in what they are doing, and try their best to make Europe a better place than, for example, the U.S.

Re NATO, I agree. Putin is not the nicest guy on Earth, but this map (http://archive.larouchepac.com/files/nato-expansion_0.jpg) speaks a clear language, too (btw @anunitu: never seen that logo before ::)).
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: K_F on June 25, 2016, 06:57:01 PM
Hutch ...for EU Overlord.  :badgrin:
 ;)
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: rrr314159 on June 25, 2016, 07:32:40 PM
jj2007: The European Union was and is a good idea. We have had over seventy years of peace over here ...

That period of peace has nothing to do with EU, which has existed only the last 23 years and done nothing for your defense posture.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: nidud on June 25, 2016, 08:28:31 PM
That period of peace has nothing to do with EU, which has existed only the last 23 years and done nothing for your defense posture.

 :biggrin:

Yes, because if everybody has a gun nobody gets shoot  :lol:

But true: the main concern/cause of conflict in the EU is the Euro.

BTW, is there a fixed date on the Texas referendum for independence?
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: anunitu on June 25, 2016, 08:54:03 PM
Hutch,



Re NATO, I agree. Putin is not the nicest guy on Earth, but this map (http://archive.larouchepac.com/files/nato-expansion_0.jpg) speaks a clear language, too (btw @anunitu: never seen that logo before ::)).

I hadn't ether,why I thought at first it was for the US.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: nidud on June 25, 2016, 09:01:47 PM
Another factor that may have influence the vote:

(https://o.twimg.com/2/proxy.jpg?t=HBhZaHR0cDovL3d3dy56ZXJvaGVkZ2UuY29tL3NpdGVzL2RlZmF1bHQvZmlsZXMvaW1hZ2VzL3VzZXIzMzAzL2ltYWdlcm9vdC8yMDE2MDYyNF9vYmFtYS5qcGcUqgsU9gUcFIQGFJQDAAAWABIA&s=j0wAytqOYhjIlzkM4u23wYiS52mRYtiFU0Weay67H8k)
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: xanatose on June 26, 2016, 12:37:14 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClrQUuCUgAAUo_d.jpg)
That must be the best endorsement for Leaving.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: mineiro on June 26, 2016, 08:59:31 AM
Brexit = Brazil exit  :greenclp:
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on June 26, 2016, 11:33:51 AM
xanatose,

Could not have said it better myself.  :t
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: rrr314159 on June 26, 2016, 11:56:32 AM
Yes, because if everybody has a gun nobody gets shoot

No, but at least you can shoot back

Quote from: nidud
But true: the main concern/cause of conflict in the EU is the Euro.

Economics is just a distraction, violence is trumps

Quote from: nidud
BTW, is there a fixed date on the Texas referendum for independence?

Don't know, but it doesn't matter, secession is illegal anyway

Analyze what happened to US middle class since 1973 or so (and probably UK also), follow the money, see where it went.
Of course giving such advice to Euridiots is like spitting into the wind
The only advice you'll actually heed is: party while you still can, let later generations pay for it
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on June 26, 2016, 12:29:00 PM
 :biggrin:

> The only advice you'll actually heed is: party while you still can, let later generations pay for it

There is an alternative to this view, have every country default and the later generation will not have to pay for it. If the resistance is too high, take the French approach, chop their heads off.  :P

This is of course where "Economics is just a distraction, violence is trumps".
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: nidud on June 26, 2016, 07:26:27 PM
No, but at least you can shoot back

 :biggrin:

Or even better you can shoot first  :lol:

Quote
Economics is just a distraction, violence is trumps

The reason why people take to the streets has everything to do with economics. Here’s the current recruitment base in Europe (youth unemployment):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClucMBUWIAA-mvp.jpg)

Quote
Don't know, but it doesn't matter, secession is illegal anyway

That was also the case in Sweden but we did it anyway. Now there’s an independent state called Norway  :P

Quote
Analyze what happened to US middle class since 1973 or so (and probably UK also), follow the money, see where it went.

Well, some revolt against the system others just line-up outside the soup kitch..s: see what happened a few decades before that.

Quote
Of course giving such advice to Euridiots is like spitting into the wind
The only advice you'll actually heed is: party while you still can, let later generations pay for it

Think you find that the Euridiots have a tendency to press the reset button from time to time. Read some history.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: xanatose on June 27, 2016, 07:25:54 PM
Don't know, but it doesn't matter, secession is illegal anyway

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." -- 10th amendment constitution of the united state.

Since no part of the constitution grants the federal government the power to keep states in the union against its will. Is left to the states and the people of the states to decide. If Texas decide for a TEXIT, there is no lawful argument to stop it.

Legal = Business Law.

Lawful = Constitution.

Since its a mater of political power, the decision is on lawful/unlawful case. The legal/illegal does not apply.

Is not lawful for the Federal government to stop Texas from leaving the Union, as they are not granted that power anywhere in the constitution. However is certainly lawful for Texas to leave the union.  As the decision is left for the states and the people of the states.

Of course that does not mean that they will not attack Texas if Texans vote for leaving. The same way they attacked the south the moment they did the same. Just that is not lawful to do so. After all that would require a republic where the constitution is actually obeyed by the Federal Government.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: rrr314159 on June 27, 2016, 07:38:38 PM
Sorry xanatose the Civil War made the constitution obsolete, archaic, ignored, useless, and ineffective - a dead letter - overtaken by events - of historical and antiquarian interest only. The sword is mightier than the pen.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 27, 2016, 07:50:50 PM
When settlers came to the New World, they showed to natives legal documents where they could see clearly that that land belonged to them. If independence were illegal, USA will continue belonging to UK.

About Unemployment. In Spain there are more than 20%. However, millions of immigrants have come and many of them have gotten a job. The problem is what kind of work are we ready to play. This days, many Spaniards in UK are talking about their future there with fear. Many of them are nurses, a job that English do not want.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: xanatose on June 27, 2016, 08:08:10 PM
Sorry xanatose the Civil War made the constitution obsolete, archaic, ignored, useless, and ineffective - a dead letter - overtaken by events - of historical and antiquarian interest only. The sword is mightier than the pen.
True about the sword.

Obedience to the constitution is the only thing that differentiates government from a gang of thugs running a protection racket. No constitution no lawful government. Take the constitution out and we got a gang of thus operating under the color of law while running a protection racket.  :badgrin:

No constitution, no lawful government. No lawful government, no law. No law then nothing is illegal. :badgrin:

Of course the sword is mightier than the pen. So it doesn't mater that we got a gang of thugs, as long as the people believe that they have a government. They will continue to worship the thugs.

Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: nidud on June 28, 2016, 07:26:17 AM
 :biggrin:

Iceland kick England out of the Euro

https://twitter.com/zerohedge (https://twitter.com/zerohedge):

Quote
Moodys downgrade the English soccer team to Junk

Quote
the petition for a rematch already has 3 million signatures
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: jj2007 on June 28, 2016, 11:35:28 AM
the petition for a rematch already has 3 million signatures

Of which 1.7 million come from North Korea 8)
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on June 28, 2016, 11:35:36 AM
caballero,

What is your take on the results of the election in Spain. The media is saying it is another indecisive result.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: xanatose on June 28, 2016, 03:36:06 PM
It seems that the UK was leaving just in time. Here are the plans for the EU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg4goZxXRZk
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 28, 2016, 05:57:00 PM
caballero,

What is your take on the results of the election in Spain. The media is saying it is another indecisive result.
Yes, that way. Every polls said that Podemos would overcome PSOE. Finally it wasn't. PSOE is the traditional center-left party, while Podemos is a new party like Syriza in Greece, same speech. It seems that the Brexit has influenced to this result.

The party who got more seats was PP, the traditional center-right party.

To achieve an absolute majority, 176 seats are needed, in other case it is needed an agree, here there's no second round. It seems that it is not easy this way. PSOE does not want in any way let the gov to the rights. C's, a new center-right party with few votes, can not decide anything. Other options are openly pro-independence parties. They start talking that PSOE could allow the PP governing in minority by any abstention. Surely for a short term.

A possible third elections are on the horizon. I rather think that PSOE will allow somehow to PP govern for a short time.

Game of Thrones is an easy game in comparison  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: Lightman on June 28, 2016, 11:47:08 PM
Hi,

Right from the moment the Brexit result was announced it was controversial with calls for another referendum coming quite soon after that. Although, I rather not have to cope with another campaign like that for a while. Despite the result, I'm not wholly convinced the UK will actually leave the EU. There has been a massive backlash here... The financial markets have fallen and political chaos has ensued. The current feeling in the country is that if there were (another) referendum tomorrow, it would be victory for the Remain campaign. Some Leave campaigners are now saying that they regret their choice; there is even a word for it... 'Bregert'.

The shortest amount of time it would take to leave is two years. The political will may well change in that time and one way to back out of the exit plan would be if a general election were to be called in the next two years (likely) and the party who ultimately won would had a pro-Europe (also likely) stance and campaigned remain after all.     

Personally, I'm curious what the result would be if the referendum was the other way around and the people of Europe voted to keep the UK in or not..

L.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: jj2007 on June 29, 2016, 12:40:37 AM
Before the referendum, there has been a merciless media campaign against the brexit. In the German media, that is - and I've always wondered what the purpose of that campaign was, given that Germans were not allowed to vote...

Now there are several options on the table:
1. Brexit
2. A new referendum (or two, or three, until the Britons become reasonable)
3. Parliament says Cameron made a little joke, i.e. it's not binding
4. The Scottish parlament says go to hell (they have started looking for a legal basis)
5. Elections in autumn, and the new Parliament says it's not bound by Cameron's promises
6. Boris Johnson becomes European Commission President, and retracts from brexit
7. Nigel Farage becomes European Commission President, and retracts from brexit
8. (... add your own here ...)

IMHO all these options have about the same probability to succeed. Except #1, of course - that one stands at 0.0% probability 8)
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on June 29, 2016, 12:43:39 AM
Perhaps it would be fine to start being adults and consistent with the things we do. UK probably has not aroused much sympathy in EU lately, though in my opinion Europe needs to UK and vice versa. I do not know if there would be any way to reverse the referendum, but would not be wrong to do so.

Before that, I think we should take note of the reasons why many people have taken part by the Brexit and correct them. It's not fair that some countries struggle to contain the deficit and debt and other pull happily checkbook, for example. But I'm afraid this will not happen, probably those who should do it better, just hold on to its chair, not the case because doing something has to sit on a pin

If Grexit already produced important financial disturbances, with a little economy like the Greek, what will be with one of the major economies of the euro zone? This is something that anyone who can add should have understood.

As I can see many people in northern Europe want to exit by the right, because they don't want pay more rescues and many people in the south want to exit by the left because, being free, would spend more.

Oh God, isn't this world a wonderful madness chaotic system?
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: xanatose on June 29, 2016, 08:25:36 PM
Now there are several options on the table:
2. A new referendum (or two, or three, until the Britons become reasonable)
You mean subservient, not reasonable. Wanting to get out of something you do not want is pretty reasonable. Trying to force someone into remaining when they do not want to is unreasonable.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: PaulHobbs100 on July 31, 2016, 07:34:42 PM
As a British man ( well half English half Welsh, so watching rugby can cause family arguments sometimes when England play Wales ! ) I thought long and hard about Brexit, in the end I voted to leave,my reasons are below.

Mainly it had very little to do with immigration and I strongly resent being labelled a racist  for voting to leave, which seems to be the main insult thrown at any chance.

For me it was financial and institutional, as a 57 year old white male growing up in a what was then a tough borough of London, I've had many jobs, some good some bad and been unemployed at times, I know what it was like back in the 1960's and 1970's etc. I just became sick of the same political rhetoric and meaningless drivel. The banks and un-elected permanent civil servants truly run the country, their corruption and self interests, complacent in their ways and unaccountable etc etc.

My hope for Brexit is we can get some people in power that will actually want to achieve the best for the country, prepared to work hard rather than just talk and be accountable!, no golden handshakes.
I am under no illusions of a few rocky years ahead, and I still not decided if the appointment of Boris Johnson as foreign secretary was folly or a stroke of brilliance ?
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: hutch-- on July 31, 2016, 10:05:30 PM
Pretty much agree with what you have said Paul. If I have it right London is a casino for the well to do with its financial institutions while much of the rest of the country is going to waste. I am old enough to own well made English hand tools from Sheffield yet these things disappeared 40 years ago with the destruction of English manufacturing. I am not a man of the old left but I do have some time for Corbin, its fascinating how desperate the Blairites are to try and tollpe him so they can kiss the ass of big money again.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: MichaelW on August 09, 2016, 09:54:41 PM
Don't know, but it doesn't matter, secession is illegal anyway

Even so, would the feds have any viable means of preventing a secession?


Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: rrr314159 on August 09, 2016, 11:18:27 PM
Don't know, but it doesn't matter, secession is illegal anyway

Even so, would the feds have any viable means of preventing a secession?

Start with the courts and if that doesn't work use military force.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on April 07, 2017, 09:12:28 PM
Games of Thrones begins. The Brexit has been activated, 52.000 millions of pounds has stimated the EU as the doubt for the UK. If the European Union remains, which is not assured, since more and more people start to want to leave, UK should play alone against an union, not the same as centuries before. Another thing would be if the EU finally breaks, then the picture would be quite different.

I think the mistake was to associate the union with immigration. The latter is based on the fait accompli, decided so by those who rule in Europe, since there was never a referendum to eliminate the external borders of the union.

Many countries of the union expect to receive companies from the city of London, since the big market is now outside. The best option for England would be to lower taxes on companies so they do not leave. Will they do it?

To this is added the uncertainty at the borders of the union, particularly in Gibraltar which has provoked a great stir in the tabloid press.

What a mess. See how everything is done in the best way possible.

Anyway, it's interesting. We probably live on the brink of great changes in Europe, I do not think it is a stable system.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: anunitu on April 07, 2017, 09:24:21 PM
Kind of interesting that the whole EU thing was an attempt to create a model of the United States with countries that have had a long history of fighting each other. The US has evolved kind of organically over a long period of time.  My take is the EU was more about revenue of their economy rather than peace and cohesion for moral reasons. The saying "You can't make a silk purse from a pigs ear" is brought to mind.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on April 07, 2017, 09:40:53 PM
I still think that the EU was/is a great idea, the problem is that it has been perverted by those who decide and rule.

The centers of world power will be located in North America, Southeast Asia and Europe. All of them great markets. If Europe were divided it would cease to be a great market, the problem now facing England.

Europe as a whole has faced great challenges, such as a space project, Airbus, etc.

A united Europe can treat the other two great centers of world power on the level of friendship, divided does not have enough strength for it, will have to adapt to what others decide.

In addition to not asking people on relevant issues like the outer edges, in my opinion there has been dishonest behavior from the southern countries, spending more than they generate. Coupled with the historical confrontations between these countries creates a breeding ground for Euroscepticism.
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: anunitu on April 07, 2017, 09:56:09 PM
Indeed,if they checked,the US has had a checkered history even with the slow evolution to where we are now(civil war,wars of expansion,the whole native American thing, slavery, racism,in some cases attempted genocide and abuse in the form of the Tuskegee syphilis incident     

Link here. https://www.infoplease.com/us/race-population/tuskegee-syphilis-experiment (https://www.infoplease.com/us/race-population/tuskegee-syphilis-experiment)

Not always a good image for the US as a moral leader in our world.

Remember I was born in the US,and love my country,BUT would never lie or cover up our blemishes. We do have a checkered past..
Title: Re: Brexit?
Post by: caballero on April 07, 2017, 10:07:48 PM
> Remember I was born in the US,and love my country,BUT would never lie or cover up our blemishes. We do have a checkered past.

Yes, the same for me and my country. I think you can not really want it if you blind yourself to its imperfections. The only way to fix something is to recognize it first.

I just criticized my country saying that it has not been completely honest about spending.