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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: caballero on June 27, 2017, 10:52:58 PM

Title: €2,420 million fine
Post by: caballero on June 27, 2017, 10:52:58 PM
€2,420 million fine from the European Union to Google for abuse of dominant position.

I wonder what politicians are going to do with that money. Will they distributed it in bonuses between themselves?

Microsoft dominated with its search engine and, however, came Google and overruled it. Is this regulation really necessary? Who regulates the regulator?

What if Google now would fire its employees in Europe to adjust its spending?
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: hutch-- on June 27, 2017, 11:59:23 PM
I have much the same comment, a grubby grab for money by the EU trying to extend its powers. They tried to force a levy for any airline that did not comply with their emission laws but the big players, US, China etc ... told them to "get stuffed" and they gave up on the idea. I support any country that wants to escape from the clutches of the EU.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: jj2007 on June 28, 2017, 12:37:06 AM
Donald Dumb strikes back: Volkswagen to pay $2.8-billion criminal fine in U.S. diesel emissions scandal (http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-volkswagen-emissions-fines-20170421-story.html)

Here is the latest Golf Diesel model in action:(http://www.musclehorsepower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/top-ten-rolling-coal-diesel-cars-of-all-time-are-the-total-bosses-of-black-smoke-insanity-735x413.jpg)
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: Siekmanski on June 28, 2017, 12:37:32 AM
I'm thinking of emigrating to Norway.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on June 28, 2017, 01:56:22 AM

 :biggrin:

Your more than welcome Marinus (many of your fellow countrymen actually do that) but you have to consider the following:

- we pay more per capita to the union than any other member state
- we have to comply to all rules and regulation from the union without having a vote

It's like a street-gang blocking the road to the shop: an extortion racket that prohibit free trade.

The main trading partner of Norway has always been Sweden, as history and geography dictates. Sweden on the other hand do most of their trade with the continent. Then some scoundrels erected a trade-wall between Sweden and the continent, demanded extortion fees. The Swedes caved in and the wall was moved to Scandinavia: split and conquer.

That's how all these major wars starts:  extortion, sanctions and trade-blocks.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on June 28, 2017, 03:37:17 AM
What if Google now would fire its employees in Europe to adjust its spending?
They are making no favour to Europe.
I really hate Google's nosey spirit and have no doubt they are just another from a vast plethora of CIA/NSA front ends set up to sniff everything no matter where and what.   :(
 
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: Siekmanski on June 28, 2017, 05:08:33 AM
- we pay more per capita to the union than any other member state
- we have to comply to all rules and regulation from the union without having a vote

I didn't know that, I thought the Norwegians were the last free people of Europe.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on June 28, 2017, 06:18:42 AM
You get a different view from the outside looking in, something the Brits now gradually waking up to. In this there are some hope in the coming negotiations that may lead to some improvements.

However, there are some good things coming out of the union as well and I think the monopoly regulation for big corporations, like Microsoft and Google, is one of those good things.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: hutch-- on June 28, 2017, 10:17:34 AM
I am with AW on this one, large American corporations cannot be trusted. Endless scraping any information they can for both their own advertising revenue AND keeping the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security happy by kissing their arse. Microsoft I am used to but recently setting up this tablet I have been playing with, you had to keep fighting off the number of attempts to extract ever more information out of you.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: caballero on June 28, 2017, 06:06:03 PM
Don't we like it? Let's make something better, or at least don't we use it... if we can :biggrin:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on June 28, 2017, 06:52:00 PM
Don't we like it? Let's make something better, or at least don't we use it... if we can :biggrin:
The search engine has some value in spite of the biaised results. But this is only the candy face of a monster that may know more about you than your best friends.  :shock:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: jj2007 on June 28, 2017, 07:52:03 PM
I am with AW on this one, large American corporations cannot be trusted. Endless scraping any information they can for both their own advertising revenue AND keeping the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security happy

Agreed. It seems that the EU is trying to show their teeth, in view of the Volkswagen scandal an interesting move. A trade war? Who knows...

The main point with privacy IMHO is that you and I couldn't care less: There are so many terabytes of crappy data around that nobody can handle that. We are just not interesting enough to justify a look by a human eye. But beware if anybody shows "potential", be it as a CEO or as a politician. As soon as Big Brother wants to know details about one single person among the 8,000,000,000 Earth Citizens, that person is in trouble. They will always find some nasty detail, just watch how they dissect the candidates for a judge's post in the U.S. Supreme Court. I bet all of them can be blackmailed, and will obey to the orders.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on June 30, 2017, 07:41:59 PM
hello nidud;
From what I know about your country is that you guys pay a lot of taxes but this payment come back to you citzens, so you have security, health, good educational system, transport system, ... . Is this right?
On my country we work 4 months by year just to pay taxes (like your country?) but that money don't come back, simple disappear. This can work on your country because have a solid liberal economy, well, with stable economy and government agencies you can also be anarcosocialist that will work, even anarcocapitalist.

Who regulates the regulator?
Nobody caballero;
Against a global goverment don't have anyone to help. The only solution is ask for exile to moon.
That's why I look strange to global warm. If your country cannot produce energy to sell or produce more, your country will never evolute., and if don't have a steel industry, more poor will be. Look for CERN, who you will think that will have infinite energy? Spain? Portugal? Norway?, no, will be germany, south korea, usa, china and russia. Well, my heros from any side (right or left) died of overdose.
This is not the end, let's open other countries barrier with "open society", this way we can enter that country and have more rights than guys that build that country. If that country don't like us so we crack their economy (metacracker) I don't like "reality cracking", I prefer "imaginarium crack" just to reach reality. And this go on with Unesco, UN (global legistative), ... .
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on June 30, 2017, 08:04:41 PM
On my country we work 4 months by year just to pay taxes (like your country?) but that money don't come back, simple disappear.
In Portugal we may work more than 6 months for the taxes, mostly to pay for the civil servant clerks that earn 1.8 times more than employees in the private sector with similar jobs.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on June 30, 2017, 08:07:07 PM
On my country we work 4 months by year just to pay taxes (like your country?) but that money don't come back, simple disappear.
In Portugal we may work more than 6 months for the taxes, mostly to pay for the civil servant clerks, in strong unions commanded by the communists, that earn 1.8 times more than employees in the private sector with similar jobs.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: caballero on June 30, 2017, 08:39:28 PM
On my country we work 4 months by year just to pay taxes (like your country?) but that money don't come back, simple disappear.
In Portugal we may work more than 6 months for the taxes, mostly to pay for the civil servant clerks that earn 1.8 times more than employees in the private sector with similar jobs.
Just the same here en Spain with the addition that being a small country it is divided in 17 sub countries, each one has its own parliament with their respective parliamentarians, vice-parliamentarians, councilors, vice-councilors, etc., etc. That is, all multiplied by 17... With no low salaries... Surprisingly (or not) everybody here seems to be greatful with this.

If I'm not mistaken, I think we are the country with the most official cars in the world. None of them are less than Audi.

Mineiro, if you find a ticket for the moon, please let me know :biggrin:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on June 30, 2017, 08:57:51 PM
 :dazzled: And you guys are from 1st world, now imaginate whats happening here on 3rd world.

caballero,  :biggrin:

aw27, same thing here, Brazil was governed by socialist (fabian and comunist) on last 30 years, as we know, nothing changed, only more poverty. The only thing that have changed is that persons that are called worker receive money to not work.
Latin America too, last 20 years have comunist on goverment and all are poor, involution instead of evolution.

Global warm is just to force our countries to pay taxes, nothing more. What they have done to save the world? Nothing. But if we talk about money they have done a lot of job. Persons today create a confusion about this because the word globalism. Now, all things are global, even climate. The earth planet have 2 glacial eras, but persons join a local climate difference with global climate difference. I was looking not news, but teachers talking about that. Even if you put earth planet on all good conditions to global warm that will not happen.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on June 30, 2017, 09:06:23 PM
Just the same here en Spain with the addition that being a small country it is divided in 17 sub countries, each one has its own parliament with their respective parliamentarians, vice-parliamentarians, councilors, vice-councilors, etc., etc. That is, all multiplied by 17... With no low salaries... Surprisingly (or not) everybody here seems to be greatful with this.

If I'm not mistaken, I think we are the country with the most official cars in the world. None of them are less than Audi.
Mineiro, if you find a ticket for the moon, please let me know :biggrin:
We are even worse than Spain. Look at the attachment which only reports until 2013, but things after 2013 reestablished pre-2011 status. We are the champions of the World in the matter.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: hutch-- on June 30, 2017, 10:02:00 PM
 :P

Never think that the politicians in your country have cornered the market in being R_Souls, you should see the chyte we have to put up with. We have the choice of "Vote Mal, Eat Pal" or "Bill The Dill" tripping over each other to see who can make the most PHUKUPZ. Its the distinction between unbridled greed versus grinding mediocrity.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on June 30, 2017, 10:37:18 PM
From what I know about your country is that you guys pay a lot of taxes but this payment come back to you citzens, so you have security, health, good educational system, transport system, ... . Is this right?

It sort of depends who we elect to make these priorities. The right will reduce funding for education and anything they may find threatening to their cause.

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On my country we work 4 months by year just to pay taxes (like your country?) but that money don't come back, simple disappear.

We don't really pay any income tax in Norway, it's more consumer based. A packet of tobacco cost around 50$, alcohol and sugar based junk food is also very expensive: this pays for the health care system. The transport system is payed for by the users so gasoline is very expensive and so on.

Quote
This can work on your country because have a solid liberal economy, well, with stable economy and government agencies you can also be anarcosocialist that will work, even anarcocapitalist.

Not sure what "anarco" means but yes everything works. Capitalism works if people don't know how the system works and socialism only works if they do. The left will for this reason funnel money into libraries, universities and education while the right will prefer homeschooling, Sunday school and stuff like that.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on June 30, 2017, 11:51:15 PM
You live on paradise nidud, I'm living on purgatory to not say hell.
Anarco is like anarchy, radical way, or Goverment controls everything or don't controls anything.
That educational system is the same as my country, the difference is that here 80% of persons of graduated university students are functional illiterates, the only choice to a good education here is homeschool. All my graduated friends don't work on their university choice area. If you go to university they will teach you about one party only, they don't teach about the area choice. Smoke courtain.

I'm a smoker, tobacco is cheap here, I like to put tobacco prices on clouds like your country, because we have the choice to plant that if need.
In my country we hold everything, the state, the politicians, the taxes on products. Have countries on Europe that politicals don't receive money by taxes. The vote here is mandatory, with social projects they remain in power. For what to work if I make several children the government supports me. The problem in my country is the nature of people.
I think was on Sweden or Swiss that they voted about give money for free to citzens, and result was no, no free money. That result will never happen on my country.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: felipe on July 01, 2017, 12:06:20 AM
I just want to say that i haven't see no really communism in no country despite how many people have talk about this concept even how many political parties or countries had call themselves that way.   :eusa_snooty:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 01, 2017, 12:28:00 AM
I just want to say that i haven't see no really communism in no country despite how many people have talk about this concept even how many political parties or countries had call themselves that way.   :eusa_snooty:
You are talking about communism by the old books of father Karl Marx? Yes, that one can not exist, but they pretend it is an ultimate goal and in the meantime what matters is destroy the existing system :bgrin:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 01, 2017, 12:53:40 AM
felipe, I respect your choice and I don't like to change your ideals, but just look for presidents on latin america.
Argentina: Cristina Kirchner
Brazil: Fernando Henrique Cardoso (fabian), Luís Inacio Lula da Silva and Dilma Roussef (comunist)
Venezuela: Hugo Chávez and Nicolas Maduro
Bolivia: Evo Morales
Uruguay: José Mujica
Well, Fidel Castro on Cuba and go on. What they have in common?

Ok, let's talk about educational system, let's look about that international test (exam) done to measure students educational quality. We from latin america have bad results, we are being compared with African countries that are much more poor than us, so, yes, from this point of view Africans are better than us because they don't have a solid educational system.
Look results of our country on link below and compare with others.
http://www.oecd.org/pisa/
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: hutch-- on July 01, 2017, 01:35:57 AM
I think you label them as "left" rather than communist. Old systems like the old Soviet, Albania, Myanmar and a few others tried to get a lot closer to Marxism but they failed economically and eventually changed to somewhere closer to the middle. They tend to be called "socialist" these days in contrast to many of the rabid right wing governments who's task is to kiss the arse  of large and generally foreign corporations while screwing the population. When the solution to every economic condition is tax cuts for corporations, you know who the government works for and it sure isn't the population.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: HSE on July 01, 2017, 01:59:10 AM
Hi Mineiro!!

You have some big confusion if you put Mujica in that group.

Mujica is the only that was in jail!! That was before he become president and still is poor. But the others (I also exclude Evo, but some people put him in the group) are the real criminals and stealed invalulable fortunes, and must to go to jail (not for ideals, wich they don`t have) . (NOTE to the late: I don't know if Maduro have something inside his head)
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: caballero on July 01, 2017, 02:11:16 AM
>...but things after 2013 reestablished pre-2011 status
That's impressive. Curiously it is supported by people that claims for no privileged classes. Apart from being unfair it is counterproductive with the future of the country, because there are many clever people here which could generate value-added products if it were not because they have the insured wage. They have the strength because they dominate the critical sectors. If a shoemaker strike happens, nothing happens, but, friend, if you touch health or education...

>I'm living on purgatory to not say hell
:biggrin: Every country has its shadows. What you related about Brazil happens in all Europe, hence the called effect. Brazil has the Embraer firm, producing militar and commercial planes, which means that there is enough capacity there, so I'm surprised that there is no better economy there.

Apart from the weather, you know. There was a joke that said: "In the bible it is said that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights without rest, they called it the universal deluge. In Sweden we call it winter" :bgrin:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 01, 2017, 03:00:27 AM
is tax cuts for corporations, you know who the government works for and it sure isn't the population.
Ultimately, I think it can indeed be for the population - less taxes means more resources to be available for the privates to manage which usually translate in more jobs and grow.
The fallacy here is infer that more money in the hands of the rich will translate in less for the poor - I don't think so - just because a rich can afford eating lobsters every day does not mean he is stealing lobsters from the stomach of the poor people.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 01, 2017, 03:09:29 AM
That's impressive. Curiously it is supported by people that claims for no privileged classes. Apart from
Do you remember that communism was set to destroy capitalism? However, capitalists outsmarted them - unions have almost no representation inside the big private companies. To survive, communists enticed the public servants which is a class of people always ready to earn more and more while working less and less.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 01, 2017, 03:30:03 AM
I should say left side or socialism by default, thanks for enlightment.
Fidel, Hugo and Lula created "Foro de São Paulo" to unify left side on south america 20 years ago, like a innocuous thinking. Youngers today don't know about this, they don't know what oposition means because they don't have seen this. The electronic ballots used in my country to vote come from Venezuela, now things make more sense.
http://forodesaopaulo.org/

I fully agree with you HSE.
I like argentines, I have personal argentines friends that changed to Brasil,  but I don't like Ernesto Chê Guevara. They created a movie on my country that put Chê as a good boy. A younger today see that movie and think that Chê is a hero. But start reading books about Chê and you will know that the guy killed a lot of persons cowardly, no chance of response, was a catastrophic Economic Minister, guerrilla leader that loose a war to ... . Of course, that movie was financed by public money, well, with money of my taxes. :icon13: . This is the cultural level of Brasil today, we have movies about Lula and Dilma done with our tax money, again, heros. Why I do not have see only one movie that say bad things or just reality about goverment? Because Rouanet law will not give you support.
In Brasil, if you do not agree with goverment you do not have support. Have a lot of books today about left side, it's hard find a book about right side.
I have read about Marx, Engels, Gramsci, Focault,  ... . How can I have an opinion about left side if I never have read a book about that? Persons here even don't know about Adam Smith, ... . They think that the right side on Brasil is bad, but on last 30 years I have seen only one right finger of left hand on goverment.

Like a fish that never have seen the air, their environment is only water. If you talk about air you will be a heretic.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 01, 2017, 04:29:53 AM
Oh yes caballero, Embraer is a good company, one of few that works here. We have petrobras (oil) too, that's now on corruption scandals. These big companies have been done with money of our ancestours, it's supposed to be a Brazil company, but the reality is that who owns goverment holds these companies. Man, only living on this wonderland to understand, it's hard talk about. Some company's have been created or maintained on militar age, after WW2. If you talk about military on my country don't expect good answers, they are "bad". Persons say that they killed 400 persons that was against military goverment on comunist epoch. One of that guys against military was Lula and Dilma. But what they don't show or talk is about 400 militants killing 300 civilians, that on cccp killed 20 milions persons, on china 64 milions, ..., how grow bilionaries from left side if everyone is supposed to be equal? . It's hard talk about. Petrobras was created by military, the money that come from petrobras is good, petrobras creators are bad.
If you stay in front of a hospital much more than 400 persons die per week, but nobody care, but if you say the word military ... .

 :biggrin: , winter.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 01, 2017, 04:49:58 AM
Ultimately, I think it can indeed be for the population - less taxes means more resources to be available for the privates to manage which usually translate in more jobs and grow.

Jobs and financial growth are the result of increased demand for goods and services. Increased demand comes from increased salaries: people are buying more stuff. If you have any empirical evidence to suggest this is wrong, that reducing wages (giving more money to the rich as you say) leads to increased demand for goods and services and thereby financial growth that would be interesting.

Quote
The fallacy here is infer that more money in the hands of the rich will translate in less for the poor

Depends how you look at it I guess. If it is the government who have all this money, regardless how they get it, and they decide for politically motivated reasons to give it to the rich instead of the poor the logical conclusion would suggest there will be less for the poor.

Quote
- I don't think so - just because a rich can afford eating lobsters every day does not mean he is stealing lobsters from the stomach of the poor people.

So if the government collect money from the poor and give it to the rich they can by a lobster.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 01, 2017, 05:30:14 AM
Do you remember that communism was set to destroy capitalism?

No. Think the idea was that capitalism would implode from accumulating dept or something.

Quote
However, capitalists outsmarted them - unions have almost no representation inside the big private companies.

And that's a good thing?

Quote
To survive, communists enticed the public servants which is a class of people always ready to earn more and more while working less and less.

Sounds like northern Europe which has the strongest unions and as a result the highest salaries. And yes, they work less and less but still manage to produce more and more.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 01, 2017, 05:57:58 AM
No. Think the idea was that capitalism would implode
Then they decided they could not afford to wait thousands of years for that to happen and changed their minds in 1917.  :badgrin:
 
Quote

And that's a good thing?
Do you know what are unions commanded by the Communist Party?


Quote
Sounds like northern Europe which has the strongest unions and as a result the highest salaries. And yes, they work less and less but still manage to produce more and more.
You live in Norway, so called Kuwait of Europe, it is easy to say we know how to do it better when things run so smoothly by a gift of God. But remember - correlation is no causality. :t And we all know that Norway had really bad times in the distant past.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 01, 2017, 07:35:54 AM
Look for Hong Kong or Singapore 60 years ago and now. How they reached that?
The thing is not about capitalism or socialism, both systems have faults and goodies. If you have a stable economic system where goverment don't touch their finger, you can be anything that will work fine.
I have started talking about global goverment and the effects are clear, on Brazil 30 years ago you see poverty people without teeth smiling, today we are champions on depression. I'm not against help poor people, never I will be, but solution is not got money from banks and throw consequences to future generations.
Well, this is why I don't like Soros and Ford foundations, they are destroying us thinking that are doing a good thing.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 01, 2017, 08:01:58 AM
Do you know what are unions commanded by the Communist Party?

So when the workers take control over the state and the company they work in they still have a "union" demanding higher salaries for them selves from themselves?

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You live in Norway, so called Kuwait of Europe, it is easy to say we know how to do it better when things run so smoothly by a gift of God.

Not much use in the gift if you privatize the profit from it except some tax revenue from some unorganized low-paid workers working on the rigs, as was the case from the start when foreign oil companies was in control. The real benefit (for the people that is) started after the evil socialists nationalized it.

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But remember - correlation is no causality. :t

Working long hours for low pay with less to no privileges is the trademark of all poor countries and that's basically what you advocating here. The European country who work the lowest hours is Germany and they have strong unions. Same goes for Sweden, Denmark, Finland and the rest of northern Europe. Think the country who work the longest hours in Europe is Greece. Do you start to see a correlating pattern here?

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And we all know that Norway had really bad times in the distant past.

Norway and the rest of Scandinavia have always been a fishing and farming community so if you mean the lack of bling bling is the same as having really bad times then yes. We did however have a strong union during the industrial revolution, demanding beer-breaks and free beer during working hours. You may find plenty of pictures of young lads pushing wheelbarrows full of drunk people back from work. What you wont fine up here is a lot of billionaires. They usually move south to avoid taxes. You know, where people like you live, but I'm sure they create a lot of high paying jobs down there so it's all good.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: felipe on July 01, 2017, 08:13:17 AM
You are talking about communism by the old books of father Karl Marx? Yes, that one can not exist, but they pretend it is an ultimate goal and in the meantime what matters is destroy the existing system :bgrin:

Well i'm glad you know about this.  :t But i don't think is impossible.
Apart from that, (i really can't start writting in english all what i think about that with too much facility), i think he and Engels were good thinkers and wrote very good works.  :icon14:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 01, 2017, 08:25:35 AM
I like to ask a question:
If we get all money of this world and divide to all persons on this world so everybody will be poor, no exception.
Anyone have a solution to take out poverty?
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: felipe on July 01, 2017, 08:54:16 AM
I like to ask a question:
If we get all money of this world and divide to all persons on this world so everybody will be poor, no exception.
Anyone have a solution to take out poverty?

Sure, let's burn the money.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: GoneFishing on July 01, 2017, 09:04:01 AM
I like to ask a question:
If we get all money of this world and divide to all persons on this world so everybody will be poor, no exception.
Anyone have a solution to take out poverty?

I see what you have in mind
Press Total Reset button maybe or shorten the population ?
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 01, 2017, 09:41:11 AM
I see what you have in mind
Press Total Reset button maybe or shorten the population ?
I don't like actual solutions, to me that's not a solution just the problem. Well, reset the world and I have sure that I will be reseted, shorten population too.  :biggrin: Smiling to not cry.
It's hard talk about a simple theme without generate some reactions on persons, a delicated talk because involve both sides of same coin.

felipe, Russia have excelent writers, a rich literature until today. A parent of mine tell me that if you search to 80 or 100 years ago you can find more than 100 thinkers, man, insane, my country today have 1 or 2 only.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: felipe on July 01, 2017, 01:34:18 PM
Ok mineiro, but Marx and Engels were germans.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 01, 2017, 02:11:09 PM
Think the country who work the longest hours in Europe is Greece. Do you start to see a correlating pattern here?
There is no pattern, you are confusing correlation with causality. And Greeks don't "work" the longest hours, I have been in Greece many times - they did not reach the bottom of the valley for their "hard working" hours. :badgrin:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 01, 2017, 03:23:59 PM
Think the country who work the longest hours in Europe is Greece. Do you start to see a correlating pattern here?
There is no pattern, you are confusing correlation with causality. And Greeks don't "work" the longest hours, I have been in Greece many times - they did not reach the bottom of the valley for their "hard working" hours. :badgrin:
Statistics are not Greece's strongest point.

In short, I don't buy the assertion that working less produces more. Sometimes I work 80 hours per week (well, some people believe I spend my days doing nothing  ;)) and I know that I can't really reach my goals with less hours.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 01, 2017, 08:50:11 PM
felipe, Russia have excelent writers, a rich literature until today. A parent of mine tell me that if you search to 80 or 100 years ago you can find more than 100 thinkers, man, insane, my country today have 1 or 2 only.
Ok mineiro, but Marx and Engels were germans.
I don't say that.


Sure, let's burn the money.
To me this is not a solution. After all money have been burn, what will happen? Barter?

--edit--
I was thinking about this, I like this talk.
And if instead burn all money we triplicate all money?
Money maybe cannot be the case, just consequence or effect.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 01, 2017, 10:24:56 PM
I can choose to be socialist, capitalist, neither, I can even create my own ideology.
If any of the chosen ideologies are not fair, I prefer to speak if there is corruption, so I believe it will fail.
People today know their rights but not their duties.
For example, create a global law in which the price of any and all food is reduced to half of its weight at the same time around the world.
In my view this will make poverty decline, the rich will not buy all food just because they can, while the poor will buy what they do not own.
The world does not have to be everyone's being poor, I like to see everyone being rich and free not to be.
In short, if we all learn to lose for the common good the end result will be all gaining, without suffering, without poverty.

For me, speaking with all the sincerity that I possess and praying to my God not to commit any injustice the root of the problem is in the human nature.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 01, 2017, 10:27:55 PM
There is no pattern, you are confusing correlation with causality.

So crushing the unions and licking the boots of oligarchs is still the right view.

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And Greeks don't "work" the longest hours, I have been in Greece many times - they did not reach the bottom of the valley for their "hard working" hours. :badgrin:

That will be the far-right view of it I guess.

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Statistics are not Greece's strongest point.

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

Average annual hours actually worked per worker in Germany: 1371, Greece: 2042.

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In short, I don't buy the assertion that working less produces more. Sometimes I work 80 hours per week (well, some people believe I spend my days doing nothing  ;)) and I know that I can't really reach my goals with less hours.

Well, there's at least a logical conclusion in that statement.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: caballero on July 01, 2017, 11:45:52 PM
> And if instead burn all money we triplicate all money?
In fact it happened and happens many times (and will happen). This image illustrate the consequence (well know history). A woman burning money en Germany at 1920s to get warming
(http://www.claseshistoria.com/entreguerras/imagenes/%2Bquemadinero.jpg)
In order to face the payments imposed to Germany after losing the First World War, his government issued huge sums of money. As a consequence, prices did not stop rising, translating into queues to buy basic necessities, there came a time when the value of the paper on which the bills were printed was higher than the nominal

> they work less and less but still manage to produce more and more
If this is the effective trend, let's all stop working and we will achieve infinite productivity.

I imagine that this has a lot to do with bringing the great work effort to Asia or others. In some countries of greater "ancestry" four nonsense are designed and then the hard work is done in others. Maybe productivity can be found there.

I have heard many times that in Europe it is considered incompetent to those who have to stay beyond 5 o'clock in the afternoon to finish their work. I can only say that I have returned home from work many times at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, hence I'm an incompetent.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 01, 2017, 11:50:55 PM
So crushing the unions and licking the boots of oligarchs is still the right view.
I will add a little bit to this famous Margaret Tatcher's:
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" or run out of oil (in Norway's case)

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https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS
Average annual hours actually worked per worker in Germany: 1371, Greece: 2042.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/nov/16/greece-eu-eurostat-statistics-fudge
How come? When I go to Germany there is nobody in the streets at night from Sunday to Thursday. Why are they so tired if they work so few hours?
Go to Greece, and everybody appears to do weekend's fun all over the week.

Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: hutch-- on July 02, 2017, 01:08:12 AM
The problem we see here in OZ with conservative governments is that tax cuts for foreign corporations that take the money out of the country also involve spending less on the country's infrastructure, cuts to welfare, cuts to health, cuts to the military budget, cuts to foreign aid and the trickle down notions of giving more tax cuts to corporations has not generated more jobs, better incomes or better pricing, just the normal predatory corporate practices that go with conservative governments kissing the arse of foreign corporations.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: jj2007 on July 02, 2017, 01:18:30 AM
Average annual hours actually worked per worker in Germany: 1371, Greece: 2042.

It is true that Germans don't work many hours, but that does not imply that Greek statistics have any correlation to reality.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 02, 2017, 03:39:20 AM
So crushing the unions and licking the boots of oligarchs is still the right view.
I will add a little bit to this famous Margaret Tatcher's:
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

So crushing the unions and licking the boots of oligarchs is still the right view.

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or run out of oil (in Norway's case)

You mean or when capitalism run out of oil. After all the Norwegian government is a coalition of evangelicals, the Tea Party, liberals and conservatives; one of the most anti-socialist government in Europe. Neither Norway, Sweden, or Germany are socialistic countries but they still have strong unions.

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https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS
Average annual hours actually worked per worker in Germany: 1371, Greece: 2042.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/nov/16/greece-eu-eurostat-statistics-fudge

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) is not Greek statistics.

The link explain how the ruling elite colluded with banks to hide dept in order to become a member of the European Union. All this was done behind closed doors. The Greek economy finally imploded as a result of accumulating dept.

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How come? When I go to Germany there is nobody in the streets at night from Sunday to Thursday. Why are they so tired if they work so few hours? Go to Greece, and everybody appears to do weekend's fun all over the week.

Most likely a conspiracy where a bunch of communist colluding with Goldman Sachs and German banks to prove that capitalism doesn't work.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: HSE on July 02, 2017, 04:48:04 AM
When I go to Germany there is nobody in the streets at night ...

Are they C++ programming?   :biggrin:

There is a law: no matter the time you have,  activities fill it. And a lot of "recreational" activities are very often more demanding than true work.



Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 02, 2017, 05:11:58 AM
Hello caballero
Something similar happened here, a nationalist president doubled the salary of the worker, the entrepreneurs then doubled the price of the products.
The president seemed to be benefactor while the businessmen as evildoers.
I am in favor of buying power rather than increasing the amount of paper.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: jj2007 on July 02, 2017, 05:23:15 AM
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) is not Greek statistics.

OECD != Greek statistics, that is certainly true. But the OECD do not collect data in Greece.

From your own Guardian link:
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Eurostat, the EU's independent statistical service, is alarmingly toothless. Its iterated mission is to "to provide the EU with a high-quality statistical information service". How can it achieve this most crucial task if it has only the data national governments give to work with? It is neither equipped nor allowed to collect crude data from member states.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 02, 2017, 06:32:58 AM
From your own Guardian link:

I didn't provide and Guardian link so please stop lying.

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Eurostat, the EU's independent statistical service, is alarmingly toothless. Its iterated mission is to "to provide the EU with a high-quality statistical information service". How can it achieve this most crucial task if it has only the data national governments give to work with? It is neither equipped nor allowed to collect crude data from member states.

So this proves that all Italians are untrustworthy and lazy?
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: jj2007 on July 02, 2017, 06:38:10 AM
I didn't provide and Guardian link so please stop lying.

You are right - I mistook your quote of the link with your own posting. My apologies.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 02, 2017, 01:27:41 PM
Usa and Europe media (latim means medium, half) is controled by one(s) organization(s). What they think is what you think.
A lie tell 100 times means truth.  Imaginarium is gaining from reality, same threater, anothers actors. Dreamland instead of reality.
Today I have see 3 lies on tv stations of my country or just what I do not agree that they can't prove. :t
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 02, 2017, 03:09:22 PM
So crushing the unions and licking the boots of oligarchs is still the right view.

I never said I am against the Unions, Unions are part of the system. What I said was that there are Unions that are street armed forces of political parties set to destroy the system. Are you seeing the difference?

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The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) is not Greek statistics.

Of course, they are! They use the raw data supplied by the Greeks - they have no other source but the Greeks themselves.  :badgrin:

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Most likely a conspiracy where a bunch of communist colluding with Goldman Sachs and German banks to prove that capitalism doesn't work.
Or some movement to improve Anders Breivik (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36094575) cell conditions. :badgrin:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 02, 2017, 11:13:38 PM
I never said I am against the Unions, Unions are part of the system.

So there is such thing as society after all then. Well, I guess that's an improvement.

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What I said was that there are Unions that are street armed forces of political parties set to destroy the system.

Think you find it's the other way around. It is the unions who hold the power (the money) and they support political parties who promote policies that enhance working conditions and wages for their members.

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Are you seeing the difference?

Not really, no.

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Of course, they are! They use the raw data supplied by the Greeks - they have no other source but the Greeks themselves.  :badgrin:

As for crack-pot conspiracy theories (which I have to admit I find amusing) this one is rather interesting. So you went to Germany and all the streets where empty, there where no workers in the bars drinking; they where all at the factories working, late during the weekend.

So who do you think is behind all of this then? Is it the lizard-people, or maybe the Nazis has returned to created a master working-class and keep them locked up in the factories, or maybe it's just the aliens?

If you think about it, from the research you've done in Greece, they being out drinking all night, maybe they're the ones keeping the Germans locked up in the factories and stealing their money?

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Or some movement to improve Anders Breivik (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36094575) cell conditions. :badgrin:

I'm sorry to say I fail to see any connections there.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 03, 2017, 01:34:21 AM
Quote
What I said was that there are Unions that are street armed forces of political parties set to destroy the system.

Think you find it's the other way around. It is the unions who hold the power (the money) and they support political parties who promote policies that enhance working conditions and wages for their members.
You have lots of difficulty in following an argument.
What I said, rewind to the beginning and check, was that politically mobilized Unions, namely in Portugal, are not fighting against the capital, capitalists outsmarted them, they are leading the civil servants class and fighting against other workers and the tax payers in general.


Quote
As for crack-pot conspiracy theories (which I have to admit I find amusing) this one is rather interesting. So you went to Germany and all the streets where empty, there where no workers in the bars drinking; they where all at the factories working, late during the weekend.

So who do you think is behind all of this then? Is it the lizard-people, or maybe the Nazis has returned to created a master working-class and keep them locked up in the factories, or maybe it's just the aliens?

If you think about it, from the research you've done in Greece, they being out drinking all night, maybe they're the ones keeping the Germans locked up in the factories and stealing their money?

Did I give you any power of attorney to decide and broadcast what I am thinking about?
I know this is typical of far-leftists.

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I'm sorry to say I fail to see any connections there.

Really? :dazzled:
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 03, 2017, 04:33:51 AM
You have lots of difficulty in following an argument.

You have arguments?

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What I said, rewind to the beginning and check, was that politically mobilized Unions, namely in Portugal, are not fighting against the capital, capitalists outsmarted them, they are leading the civil servants class and fighting against other workers and the tax payers in general.

So the oligarchs manage to divide the workers in Portugal and the workers lost because the capitalists outsmarted them.

Quote
Did I give you any power of attorney to decide and broadcast what I am thinking about?

Yes.

Quote
I know this is typical of far-leftists.

It is? I didn't know that.

Quote
Really? :dazzled:

Well, you could explain it instead of giving me the power of attorney to decide and broadcast what I think you mean, but you didn't. You provided a link to a Nazi who killed a lot of people from the labor party in Norway supported by the unions.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 03, 2017, 03:25:30 PM
You provided a link to a Nazi who killed a lot of people from the labor party in Norway supported by the unions.
I provided a link to a nazi that alone killed 77 people in 2 attacks in the same day, including 69 young leftists that went to an island to be brainwashed.
Police took ages to stop him in spite of knowing his whereabouts since the beginning.
Was this an isolated case? Of course not (https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/1107/Why-are-Norwegian-police-so-slow-to-respond-to-emergencies).
And you simply answer: "So what? Don't you see that our oil rich society is a model of virtues".
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: jj2007 on July 03, 2017, 04:45:25 PM
I provided a link to a nazi that alone killed 77 people in 2 attacks in the same day, including 69 young leftists that went to an island to be brainwashed.

Agreed that the idiot is a nazi. But summer camp of Workers' Youth League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Youth_League_(Norway)) = brainwashing? Would you use the same term if the camp was organised by the catholic church?
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 03, 2017, 08:46:58 PM
Hello aw27;
I can confirm some of your sentences.
I have been in all the popular movements that culminated in the impeachment of the president of Brazil. I saw several people wearing shirts with the colors of the flag of my country, demanding improvements.
The government without popular approval then called for moves in its favor (Union of workers), but for that he gave citizens a red shirt, about 8 dollars and snacks. He bought zombies who did not know what they were doing there.
They are manipulating people, why not give it to the people for free? Do people need to agree and show their support to deceive other masses? I do not agree with this governmental attitude.

I understand when you spoke about 'dialectic'. A context manages to squirm over and over again in its opposite only with the aim of not trying to be denied.
A person who helps an old lady cross the street. What did this person do? People confuse kindness with socialism in my country. This is even happening in the Vatican nowadays.

You see, if I am against racial quotas in Universities (blacks in my country have 20% vacancies in public universities) they say that I am evil (dialectic). I am in favor of quotas for the poor, there are many richer blacks than I am.

On global sense; centralizing power and dividing people.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 03, 2017, 10:20:13 PM
Would you use the same term if the camp was organised by the catholic church?
No, if I do I may loose my seat at the right hand of God.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 03, 2017, 10:23:21 PM
I can confirm some of your sentences.
Thank you. :t
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: nidud on July 03, 2017, 10:31:38 PM
So if the workers gives more money to the oligarchs they could afford to by lobsters and the workers who disagree are brainwashed.

I provided a link to a nazi that alone killed 77 people in 2 attacks in the same day, including 69 young leftists that went to an island to be brainwashed.

Yes, that's how it begins. They organize themselves in unions and start educate the children: If you don't fight these evil unions they will steal your lobster!

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Was this an isolated case? Of course not (https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/1107/Why-are-Norwegian-police-so-slow-to-respond-to-emergencies).

Yes, Sunday school, that's the way to go  :t

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And you simply answer:

Not sure what "anarco" means but yes everything works. Capitalism works if people don't know how the system works and socialism only works if they do. The left will for this reason funnel money into libraries, universities and education while the right will prefer homeschooling, Sunday school and stuff like that.
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: aw27 on July 04, 2017, 01:01:25 AM
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Capitalism works if people don't know how the system works and socialism only works if they do. The left will for this reason funnel money into libraries, universities and education while the right will prefer homeschooling, Sunday school and stuff like that.
Good example of how the leftist brainwashing is done.  :t
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: mineiro on July 04, 2017, 03:23:18 AM
Hello caballero
Something similar happened here, a nationalist president doubled the salary of the worker, the entrepreneurs then doubled the price of the products.
The president seemed to be benefactor while the businessmen as evildoers.
I am in favor of buying power rather than increasing the amount of paper.
Sounds that I have guessed right.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39768671
Title: Re: €2,420 million fine
Post by: caballero on July 04, 2017, 03:44:59 AM
>Mineiro

I knew that, Maduro shouted to a mass of followers that he would raise their salary to the double by law, and these in turn shouted sick.

I don't know if Maduro does not know the basic principles of the economy or is unknown by all of them, but by simple logic, if it were as simple as that, there would be no poor countries.

Money, finally, is nothing more than a commodity that serves to exchange products. The final part of the story is the exchange of these products. If in return for my pig you give me 20 hens, now you can not convince me to give you my pig for 2 hens.

In the end progress is achieved with work and economy. In my opinion there are thousands of inventions that try to convince us otherwise, that they do nothing but put trash under the carpet, which sooner or later ends up getting out spouting.