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Toddler's Corner => Romper Room => Topic started by: Siekmanski on July 31, 2018, 09:38:50 AM

Title: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on July 31, 2018, 09:38:50 AM
Looking for math stuff on YouTube, came across this video.  :biggrin:

How programming works..... starts at 4:16 but the rest is hilarious too.
What Your Math Teacher Didn't Teach You. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zcT4SJubYA

Here a response to the video above, hilarious too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSb7ciBHaGg

Don't they teach math and physics to kids anymore at school?
Is this the beginning of the end of mankind?

For fun look up Flat Earth videos and see how they try to prove it. It's really funny.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: felipe on July 31, 2018, 01:21:59 PM
 :dazzled: Wtf? I couldn't watch the entire video of the woman  ::), but i laughed a little with the video of the second link.. :P
I guess she is psychotic? or maybe some actress trying to earn money with an hilarious show?  :idea:

Anyway i will start programming from now using the reflection technique... :lol:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: AW on July 31, 2018, 06:57:57 PM
I have no ideia what the girl was talking about but she would have a bright future in the porno industry.  :badgrin:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on July 31, 2018, 07:27:10 PM
The most hilarious is that it's a bit hard to me to follow the spoken English :icon_rolleyes: :lol:... now I have no body to concentrate on what is she saying 8) :bgrin:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on July 31, 2018, 10:46:12 PM
It only goes to prove that beauty and brains are not necessarily connected.  ::)
Title: If programming languages had honest slogans, what would they be?
Post by: jj2007 on August 01, 2018, 08:14:38 PM
Quote
Richard Kenneth Eng, Used Fortran, Tandem TAL, C/C++, C#, Obj-C, Java, Smalltalk, Python, Go

Java – I’m not pretty, but I get the job done.
Python – The beauty of whitespace syntax is an illusion.
JavaScript – The Stockholm syndrome manifested as mass psychosis.
C++ – The Everything-and-the-cuisine-sink language.
C# – Java on steroids.
Ruby – The love child of Perl and Smalltalk.
Perl – Flexibility and write-only are virtues.
PHP – Easy to learn, hard to manage.
R – Slow and ugly are good.
Swift – The Venus flytrap of programming languages.
Scala – Flexibility can kill.
Haskell – Mathematical rigor over common sense.
Objective-C – A forced marriage that results in an ugly mutt.
Lisp – the underrated functional language.
Smalltalk – Beauty and productivity elevated to Olympus.
Go – ultra-conservatism in programming.
Rust – tough love for systems programmers.
Dart – the one-time-would-be JavaScript killer setting hearts aflutter.
Kotlin – what Scala should’ve been
(Quora (https://www.quora.com/If-programming-languages-had-honest-slogans-what-would-they-be))
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 02, 2018, 11:13:15 AM
> Richard Kenneth Eng, Used Fortran

He can't be all bad if he programmed in FORTRAN.  :P
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: jj2007 on August 02, 2018, 07:05:35 PM
He can't be all bad if he programmed in FORTRAN.  :P

In the early 1980s, I wrote a little model in FORTRAN on a PDP-11. The printout was about 5 metres long, I found that quite impressive :P

I know some top notch modelers who still use FORTRAN today. Apparently it has some advantages over the C family.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: HSE on August 03, 2018, 12:40:04 AM
I know some top notch modelers who still use FORTRAN today. Apparently it has some advantages over the C family.
Still work. ACSL, a valued modelling software, translate scripts to FORTRAN to compile them (but the company close that branch two years ago  because itsn't profitable anymore :biggrin:).
 
With SmplMath we can use Assembly directly! Sorry, fair competence have gone  :t 

Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: daydreamer on August 03, 2018, 12:48:52 AM
He can't be all bad if he programmed in FORTRAN.  :P

In the early 1980s, I wrote a little model in FORTRAN on a PDP-11. The printout was about 5 metres long, I found that quite impressive :P

I know some top notch modelers who still use FORTRAN today. Apparently it has some advantages over the C family.
Thats because you cant C voyager probes and ancient satellites
Why dont they upload some games to voyager probes?, they dont think aliens like to play games and get to know us humans,what kind of games we like?
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Caché GB on August 06, 2018, 06:56:07 PM
This woman was right about one thing, at 2:31 she said zero is false.
Well in positive logic systems zero is false and in MASM,

FALSE  equ  0

Could not watch any further.

The dude that roasted her was not that good either. I think Undoomed on YouTube is the best.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 06, 2018, 09:53:22 PM
Thanks for pointing to the "Undoomed" Youtube channel.  :t
It's really entertaining to watch the Dunning-Kruger effect in real life.

Just watched the "Look at how SCIENCE we are!" video, very funny.  :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DTzsTnQR1E
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 06, 2018, 10:16:09 PM
Youtube channel I like for entertainment is "hiith"

And don't miss this funny video,
The Earth Is As Flat As This Man Is Smart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFsXCZd_0QI

Original video of this smart man,
Simplest Irrefutable Flat Earth Proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOWZGky6Rc0
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: HSE on August 06, 2018, 11:10:08 PM
Original video of this smart man,
Simplest Irrefutable Flat Earth Proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOWZGky6Rc0

Even can't follow what he said. But is wrong, because his explanation rely in airplanes and ...  airplanes doesn't exist!! (perhaps he can try with... dragons?)
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 06, 2018, 11:52:45 PM
Interesting subject about the flat earth. We live in the 21st century and there are still many people who believe it. Imagine in the fifteenth century, when America was discovered.

However, today as in the fifteenth century, we live immersed in prejudices. The flatearths provide very convincing theories, do I not believe them only because today we "know" that the earth is spherical? Or would we able to demonstrate that they are not true?

When you climb to a high point, you can get an idea of a sphere. The boats disappear in the distance at the bottom, which seems to indicate the curvature of the earth. At least for me a flat figure in the universe doesn't seem to be reasonable, the sphere seems more congruent. But the flatearths have found arguments that explain all this. Not always what seems logical is right.

I have found a video where these flatearths theories are put in serious trouble, in Spanish.

https://youtu.be/iVNt1NuU0hE
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 07, 2018, 12:14:25 AM
I like to read the comments below the Flat Earth videos, it's hilarious how stupid their claims are.
One of the most used proof is, "The bible says the earth is flat".
Think the left part of their brain is flat too.  :badgrin:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 07, 2018, 01:40:55 AM
 :biggrin:

What this evidence is the difficulty of observing something from within, it is easier to see it from outside, in perspective. Religious beliefs add vitality to some perspectives or others, such as geocentric theories, defended by some scientists until a few centuries ago.

Curiously, these religious beliefs are also based on the interpretation of certain texts, if I'm not wrong. Then perfectly this interpretation could also be wrong.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: zedd151 on August 07, 2018, 01:43:51 AM
Lets not forget about the 'hollow earth' theories.  :P

 Hollow Earth  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Earth)
 
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 07, 2018, 03:03:17 AM
Yeah, you could have some fun with that one, a universe that is inside out and the surface we see is the inside of a sphere, not the outside. With a crackpot enough theory you could describe the view of the world being approximately spherical as an optical illusion and if you dug a deep enough hole, you would still not come out in China as there would be no end to the hole depth.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 07, 2018, 03:05:33 AM
:biggrin:

What this evidence is the difficulty of observing something from within, it is easier to see it from outside, in perspective. Religious beliefs add vitality to some perspectives or others, such as geocentric theories, defended by some scientists until a few centuries ago.

Curiously, these religious beliefs are also based on the interpretation of certain texts, if I'm not wrong. Then perfectly this interpretation could also be wrong.

Believing is nothing else then not knowing and to accept a statement, supposition, or opinion as true.
It creates a confused and dangerous environment and sometimes hilarious moments.

Athiests Are 99% Evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD12OXUliys
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 07, 2018, 04:52:17 AM
I have always chuckled at religious statements from either athiests or theists. I have no problems with folks who believe things, we all do it somewhere but the only completely rational position is that of the agnostic who states that they do not know either way. I don't know if little green men live on Mars and while I have seen nothing that suggests that they do, I would not waste the time trying to prove that they don't, negative proof is just another branch of nonsense metaphysics.

One of the assumptions most make is that nature is uniform over time but Bertrand Russell produced an example of a turkey that live a life of luxury every day and to the turkey it just happened day after day but at Christmas time it got its head chopped off and was cooked for Christmas dinner.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 07, 2018, 04:55:17 AM
While I am at it, I have a view on programming that in OZ is called Rafferty's rules which basically means, if it works, do it. You can put a fancy handle on it and call it "Epistemological Anarchy" but it just means the same thing, if it works, do it.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 07, 2018, 05:48:02 AM
I'm sorry but it is a bit hard to me to follow the spoken English. A 99% seems to be a bit elevated.

I agree with Hutch that the most logical for me is agnosticism. From my point of view, religion and atheism are two religions because both need faith for their beliefs. While they are soft positions they are perfectly healthy, simply a way of understanding life. They begin to be harmful environments when they begin to be more rigid positions.

If God exists and said "grow and multiply and dominate the earth" surely he did not say it in the sense that we have given it. I think that the human needs a cap, a limitation, because otherwise we would become a despot, with our peers or with our environment. When Nietzsche said "God has died" I think he meant breaking all human chains so that he reaches the maximum. This is fine so as not to be limited by religious prejudices, but it risks breaking all ethical boundaries.

My father defined himself as an atheist and my mother as a believer. Both had very soft positions. A phrase to summarize it: my mother only went to mass at weddings/funerals/communions/christenings and my father accompanied her.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 07, 2018, 06:09:00 AM
Quote
From my point of view, religion and atheism are two religions because both need faith for their beliefs.

Atheism is not a belief system.
Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.
While there are some religions that are atheistic (certain sects of Buddhism, for example), that does not mean that atheism is a religion.

Quote
My father defined himself as an atheist and my mother as a believer.

My father was an atheist too and my mother also believed in god.
This turned out well for me, got the looks from my mother and the brains from my father.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: felipe on August 07, 2018, 09:35:23 AM
This turned out well for me, got the looks from my mother and the brains from my father.  :biggrin:

I should infer from here that you are saying you are "good" looking?  :lol:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 07, 2018, 09:51:50 AM
This turned out well for me, got the looks from my mother and the brains from my father.  :biggrin:

I should infer from here that you are saying you are "good" looking?  :lol:

No, I never mentioned my mother was good looking, luckily for me "good looks" is a matter of taste.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 07, 2018, 02:08:32 PM
Left overs from studying philosophy at uni long ago. Proof for the existence of God is an ancient field of endeavour and the one I had the most fun with was the "First Mover" argument from the Catholic saint, Thomas Aquinas. His argument went something like this, if each event/situation followed from an earlier one then  the first one is called God.

The obvious response to this is an infinite regression that has no beginning.
The obvious answer to that is how do you prove an infinite regression ?

The conversation usually collapses down to invective, abuse and in historical cases, holy wars and massacres of the infidels (any flavour).

The "theist" holds the first mover as an act of FAITH.
The "agnostic" make no claim in either direction.
The "atheist" holds an infinite regression as an act of FAITH.

The uncommitted "agnostic" is the only one on safe ground here on the claim of being rational, both the theist and the atheist are believers motivated by FAITH and while there is nothing wrong with either "religion", it is a mistake to hold that either has any objective proof.

The "theist" can make the claim from collective testimony that well over a billion believers can't be wrong.
The "atheist" can claim that space appears to go on forever.

I am much of the view that anyone can believe anything as long as they don't try and force you to believe what they believe.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 07, 2018, 04:23:23 PM
If you are an atheist, I guess that you are convinced that there isn't any God. Thus there's no absence of belief, but a belief of absence of something. Something that noone is able to demonstrate that doesn't exists, so you need of faith for your believe. Hence we are talking about a religion here.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: jj2007 on August 07, 2018, 06:39:21 PM
The uncommitted "agnostic" is the only one on safe ground

That's also my conclusion :t

I am open for surprises - maybe I will find out one day that I live in The Matrix. I am pretty sure, though, that if god exists, she or he or it couldn't care less about those guys in the purple dresses who claim to represent her/him/it on Earth. And most probably, she/he/it will not look like an old white man with a long beard 8)
(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/2016/09/DIS_Gilsinan_BigInEurope/lead_720_405.jpg?mod=1522790761)
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Yuri on August 07, 2018, 07:58:18 PM
I think what you really believe shows in how you live. If you live as if there is no God, then it's what you believe. Whether you call yourself "atheist" or "agnostic". You can say that you "don't know" in a discussion, but when you have to act, you have to choose what to believe.

If you choose not to go to church, what is your decision based on? It can't be based on knowledge because you "don't know". Obviously it's based on your belief there is no God. And since even the promise of eternal life and the threat of eternal suffering can't outweigh your belief, it's a strong one.

So, there are gnostic atheists, who think they know there is no God, that it can be proved, and there are agnostic atheists, who think it can't be proved (yet) but who nevertheless live as if God doesn't exist.

Of those two groups, the more rational are the gnostic atheists because they live according to their knowledge (be it right or wrong). But the agnostic atheists are definitely irrational because they live according to sheer belief. "I don't know if there is God, so I won't go to church" — where is logic here? Apparently the more rational choice would be "so I will go to church just in case". Because the risk is very big. The cost of the mistake is huge. Actually, the true agnostic would go to all churches available and pray to all gods whose names he can remember. :)
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 07, 2018, 08:27:19 PM
I do not remember having read that the earth is flat in the bible, only that it is wrapped in a dome. God (Yahweh) has no form, is omnipresent; the work of Michelangelo became famous because it gave form to the God, human form in the case. The way we think about angels today is his trademark, angels are asexual, but Michelangelo has put sex in these forms.

St. Thomas Aquinas (theological sum) strengthened the Church, demonstrating that there is no conflict between faith and reason.
It's something like Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy. Dante had a philosophical and Christian character, and in his work tells the story of a character who walks between hell, purgatory and paradise. While reading the book we identify with beings in the three spheres, we want to finish reading to see if we can save ourselves, or identify more with characters from paradise.

Miracle is something that science does not explain, and if you try it through numbers, in a rational way. A good example to instigate science is Priest Pio of Pietrelcina. Another example is Jesus resurrection. Some (liberation theology) say that it is a symbolic event, that it has not resurrected but that only its teachings continue among us. Well, it is explicit that he has risen, in the flesh. One counter argument used is that if God is omnipresent then how the devil was born. The devil was an angel, he did not tempted God, he tempted us humans. Jesus did not write any book, on the contrary, what he did were acts, he was the only person who passed through this planet and did not sin, did not commit adultery.

I will always respect people who have another religion or have no religion whatsoever. I am Catholic because of the religions is the only one that offers us another life outside the carnal being, the infinite. The trichotomy of the body, soul and mind.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: jj2007 on August 07, 2018, 08:30:12 PM
If you choose not to go to church ... it's based on your belief there is no God.

Oh boy, I sincerely hope you don't believe the crap you are writing here :icon_eek:

If somebody doesn't go to church, that has nothing to do with a belief in god or not; it most likely means he firmly believes that people who cut off the balls from little boys to make them sing better cannot be representatives of god on this Earth.

God (Yahweh) has no form, is omnipresent; the work of Michelangelo became famous because it gave form to the God

A thousand years before Michelangelo, the catholic church struggled already with the second commandment (Idolatry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry#Christianity)):
Quote
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary.

— Leviticus 26:1–2, King James Bible[45]

The main reason why the church violates the 2nd commandment all the time is that through depicting god as a white old man, they hope that the sheep associate white old priests with divine authority. The wise person who wrote the 2nd commandment wanted to avoid that explicitly.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 07, 2018, 09:44:01 PM
Who are we, where do we come from?
What do we know about the Universe, how does it work?
We know just a tiny bit how it works.
No one knows for 100%, hence Religion.

What do we know about Dark Energy?
Is it 75% of the universe?
Is it what people refer to as god?
Does it hold the secret how gravity works?

A New View on Gravity and the Cosmos by Erik Verlinde.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ovRZuv5Lo8

I have the same view as Hutch that anyone can believe anything as long as they don't try and force you to believe what they believe.

For me religious belief is nothing more than an opinion.
Don't know where I got this phrase from but it has been stuck forever in my mind.

A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

Does this explain fundamentalist religions?

If you are an atheist, I guess that you are convinced that there isn't any God. Thus there's no absence of belief, but a belief of absence of something. Something that noone is able to demonstrate that doesn't exists, so you need of faith for your believe. Hence we are talking about a religion here.

This is difficult to answer without knowing what god is.
You can't solve an unknown if an equation holds an unknown at both sides.

belief = 0
god = 0
existence = TRUE = 1

belief = god * existence
god = belief / existence

If I believe a wallpaper is greenish-blue and you believe it is blue-greenish, did we start a new religion?
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Yuri on August 07, 2018, 09:57:11 PM
Oh boy, I sincerely hope you don't believe the crap you are writing here :icon_eek:

If somebody doesn't go to church, that has nothing to do with a belief in god or not; it most likely means he firmly believes that people who cut off the balls from little boys to make them sing better cannot be representatives of god on this Earth.

Crap is in your comment. I was writing about an agnostic, not just somebody.

And, of course, if that somebody doesn't believe in God, it's a perfectly valid reason for him not to go to church. Why the former has nothing to do with the latter in your wonderful little head, I have no idea.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 07, 2018, 10:37:12 PM
RE : Old white man with a long white beard. In my youth there was a joke going around of a black guy who found a magic lantern that had a genie that granted him one wish. The guy ask to be made "All White, Uptight and Outasite" so the genie turned him into a tampon.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 07, 2018, 11:19:11 PM
Is wallpaper any kind of deity?
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: AW on August 07, 2018, 11:58:33 PM
You have to prove as well that GOD does care about what you are phuking doing in here.
Odds are it does not give a damn, you can insult GOD, its mother, son, holy spirits and the whole army of Heaven angels to your hearts content and nothing wrong will happen to you.
Don't be selfish to the point of believing that you are important and that GOD is watching you.

This assumes that GOD, whatever it phuking is, exists. Stephen Hawking says GOD was not needed to create the Universe, but I have not read yet his book and he might have written that due to its distress.  :icon_confused:
 
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 08, 2018, 12:24:37 AM
The main reason why the church violates the 2nd commandment all the time is that through depicting god as a white old man, they hope that the sheep associate white old priests with divine authority. The wise person who wrote the 2nd commandment wanted to avoid that explicitly.
Hello sir jj2007, yes, I agree with you.
Michelangelo was excommunicated by the pope after painting the Sistine Chapel, not only because he had given forms, but because he had been charged by the Catholic Church for his work. Art has value, money.
The idea I suppose came from the fact that the son of God, Jesus, came in human form; his image and likeness.

I try, as far as possible, to be rational, and I hope I will not do any slander or blasphemy. Something I've always asked is: Why did not teach us how to turn water into wine, or else, the miracle of fish multiplication, would end hunger on the planet.
Something I learned is do not judge while reading any book, if the book says that a square is a circle believe, only after reading the book is that we can say that a square is not a circle. The issue here is faith, faith moves mountains, has been taught us but we have not learned.
There is more between heaven and earth than our vain philosophy.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 08, 2018, 12:37:23 AM
Is wallpaper any kind of deity?

 :biggrin:

Off course not, wallpaper is a fact while god is not.
So wallpaper can not be a god.

My point was, atheism is not a belief system.
Religion is not without belief.
Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. ( read: abcence of belief )

Until someone proves what god is, it is a waste of time and energy believing in god.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 08, 2018, 01:38:57 AM
read: abcence of belief
This is the point we don't meet :biggrin:
As I see, the atheism is the belief of not existence of any deism :t
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 08, 2018, 04:08:09 AM
hahaha... spaghetti with words.  :biggrin:
An atheist doesn't belief, therefore the absence of belief........... etc.  :t

Why do people always try to label Atheism as a Religion?  :dazzled:
They don't have a holy book.
If there was one, it will be a very short one with one page and one sentence.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 08, 2018, 04:35:37 AM
The absence of belief is in agnosticism. Both believers and atheists believe, first ones in God, second ones in the nonexistence of any god. Neither of them can prove their belief, so they need their faith. The existence or not of a sacred book is irrelevant.

Look at Conan, he believe in Crom, without a sacred book, but no one would doubt that Crom be a God. Look, he doesn't even pray to him. :lol:
(http://cinemania.elmundo.es/img/conts/0cbe515_poster.jpg)
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 08, 2018, 04:46:24 AM
You are funny.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: nidud on August 08, 2018, 05:09:42 AM
 :biggrin:

Heaven and earth is separated by a river called Iordan. The purpose of these earth dwellers was to gather as much gold they could muster during their lifetime and then fill up a boat with all their earthly possessions. Two coins should be put over their eyes to pay the ferryman but the Danes usually grab more than the coins thought. The gold body was then taken up to Heaven for further processing.

The good old days.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 09, 2018, 02:33:47 AM
Hi Alfonso,

Found a cool video for you.  :t

5 Wrong Assumptions Atheists Make
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYquml22N5Y
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 09, 2018, 02:38:01 AM
Curiously, the symbol of burying the dead with a coin is shared in Greek mythology. Charon was the ferryman of Hades who carried the deceased along the river Acheron. Custom later imported by Rome.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Charon_by_Dore.jpg/220px-Charon_by_Dore.jpg)
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 09, 2018, 03:31:02 AM
As I can see in this video. From what I understood from the video, everything is based on highlighting the atrocities of Christianity to validate atheism. I guess Christianity is not the only religion that commits / has committed atrocities. I have understood in the video that atheism has not committed crimes of religion. Which is not true. In Spain, for example, there were murders for the simple fact of attending mass or being a priest.

In no way do I say that theism or atheism is bad, they are simple ways of life. I do not know if God exists, so I can not try to convince anyone to change his mind. Most likely, I am wrong in what I do on a daily basis.

I just wanted to say that, in my opinion, atheism is also a religion because it is based on faith. But surely I'm wrong.

I am convinced that there are people who are absolutely convinced of their religion, theist or atheist, and they are absolutelly wonderful people. There are nuns, for example, who take care of the terminally ill, I suppose by vocation, which other people would not do even for money. I'm thinking about leprosy, for example. I repeat that, I understand, it is simply a way of life.

Just before writing this, I was thinking about the Greco-Roman world. Before Christianity, Democracy already existed, it was drawn, sculptures were made, wonderful buildings. When in the rest of Europe, for example, animals were still being hunted, for example. Of course they were civilizations, the most advanced known to date. Probably their life was also wonderful ... until someone came to annoy it, surely.

Probably many beautiful and advanced civilizations have been lost throughout history by wars. Irreplaceable wisdom. My brother, who is fond of natural medicine, often says the wisdom that may have been lost in natural medicine for having confused it with witchcraft or superstition. What else does religion give, if they had it, or their lack of it?

More than people who profess any kind of religion, my theory is that there are certain types of people who do not profess anything and take advantage of the dominant superiority, whatever it may be. Those are the really dangerous ones.

Hey, I do not know if I gave another impression, but I assure you that for me everything is correct: theist or atheist. :t
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 09, 2018, 05:58:11 PM
 :t
To be a good person has nothing to do with religion.
That's the freedom of choice we have, no one can control our minds if we don't want to.
Bad and good is everywhere.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 12, 2018, 10:18:37 AM
Something I have found that is funny is that in the post Christian era (in western countries) there has been a shift from the old to all sorts of weird stuff (by western standards). Instead of renouncing religion and following the path of pseudo science, many have shifted to eastern religions, Islam, Vedic period literature and I have even heard of some folks going the route of post Christian "gnostic" teachings, almost all of which have the most tenuous attachment to any form of evidence.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 12, 2018, 03:18:30 PM
I find it funny why religion is based on the fact where on earth you are born and in what era.
Western world -> Christianity
Arabic world -> Islam
India -> Hinduism
etc.

I wonder why nobody believes in Thor anymore, or has science dealt with that?
Maybe there is hope for humankind and religions will fade away in the future.

But then again I think religion will never fade away because many can not grasp reality.
As an example the latest religion, the "Flat Earth Movement", those people can not grasp simple scientific evidence.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 12, 2018, 10:32:11 PM
Religion exists because science can not explain all the facts that happen. It was not for lack of attempts, on the contrary, until multiverse created, but in the end always arrive at the beginning, something happened before us. It's like gravity, we can feel it, we know it exists but we can not explain until today, just measure. And this inexplicable for religion is God.

The Catholic bible tells the story of the origin of life on the planet, science does not tell us where we came from, just the Big Bang. The Bible tells us about ethics and moral precepts, science does not impose limits to this.

A simple computer example, information theory, Claude Shannon. We get certain text file written in a certain language and we compress. The resulting file, in theory, can not be compressed again; on the contrary, it will only increase if we try to compress it again, just as the expansion of the universe. We know how to measure what has been said, the probability of the next dice is innocuous in a chaotic way in all possible probabilities. We perceive, measure, understand, but we can not explain the reason for this, I say, the reason there is no universal compression for entropic, random, compressed or encrypted data. Should I create a new religion to worship randomness? Does this created religion explain everything or just parts of the whole?
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 13, 2018, 01:18:33 AM
So if science can't explain facts, it is god's work, until proven by science?
This sounds weird don't you think.
Does it mean that god will be less and less significant everytime science comes with more proof how the universe works?

Does god provide us with knowledge?
Instead of speaking to a few unlettered desert people, why not showing him/her/it to a lot of people at once, and tell us who or what he/she/it is, now in the present time?

Do you really believe the origin of life story in the bible?
Science at least tries to find out where we come from and in the meantime gave us radio, television, mobilephones, computers etc.
God teaches us nothing, people do.

The bible learns us about ethics and morals?
Have you read the horrible things done to people that are written in the bible and are justified?
Intelligence has a bigger influence on morals and ethics than any holy book.

Religion is invented by humans and is used as a tool by powerful people and/or governments thru history.
The purpose is to get power and wealth by controlling others.
What to do to get control over people:
Create an imaginary god power that has to be believed in and rob the people from their freedom.
Now you can control the people, enslave them, create fear so you can let them do exactly what god wants or else hell is waiting for them.
Because religions are not strong enough as a tool anymore ( people become smarter by learning and wiser by scientific proofs ), we now have other systems too to control the people, with a political or ideological base.

Should I create a new religion to worship randomness?
I would rather use science to proof randomness with facts instead of believing how randomness works.

Are people really free to believe what they want?
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 13, 2018, 01:47:30 AM
Trouble is that religion and the lack of religion both have lousy track records, Stalin's purges were no less horrific than the Spanish inquisition and the examples across history are just as ugly. People have been finding excuses to kill each other from the dawn of civilisation, mongol invasions running from east to west over a vast territory massacred their way through a massive number of people and Tamir the lame (Tamerlane) massacred millions and is seen in his historical area as a hero.

There is no doubt that religion has been used in various locations over time as a controlling method of the population (Ferdinand and Isabella) and many others of different flavours but so has the sword, famine, money and ideology, there is little that is new in the world.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 13, 2018, 10:12:22 AM
Excuse me, gentlemen, I have an opinion formed like you;


That is if science can prove controversially what has been taught, and it is not the case, just the opposite, is the answer. The more science walks, the closer it gets to what I can not explain but I can feel it, just like you do.

We were told by my old man, but he was not taught us. Teaching does not mean just talking, but rather acquiring.

Of course, do you have something that says otherwise? Tell me the origin of the story of life, I would like to hear your arguments. Aliens we've never seen? It's easier to believe someone who walked the planet than someone I've never heard of.

Not all Catholics know how to interpret the Bible. Who has ever looked with an eye on the wife of the next? I already, my sin, but between thinking and acting there is a curve.

Science was invented by humans. Those who try to acquire the monopoly of the lives of others are non-Catholics, they are politicians.
I understand the slander caused by the church in times of old, and I speak ill of it, I am not fervent. When politics mingle with religion something bad happens, there are current, non-Catholic examples about it. How many Catholics do you listen to on the radio, television, ... saying you killed another just for religion? The answer is zero. We're talking about meanness, maleficence, another story.

Currently some.

You have your opinion formed, and I have mine. We will only find out who is right after we die. Do not mind, perhaps you go to paradise and I do not, for I fear you, he is just. But while that does not happen, I'd rather believe in religion than in aliens.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 13, 2018, 11:39:08 AM
Hi mineiro,

It's normal to have different opinions, nothing wrong with that, nobody knows for sure, maybe both are wrong.

I prefer logic above belief.
Science can absolutely demonstrate that evolution is a fact.

Do you really believe the universe, flora and fauna on earth are created in 6 days 6000 years ago?
Christians believe in a book compiled and edited in the 17th century, from 16th century translations of 8000 contradictory copies of 4th century scrolls,
that claim to be copies of lost letters written in the 1st century.
Logic tells me, not reliable at all.

Instead I have read books from Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss and Noam Chomsky etc.
I have learned a lot of this world and universe thanks to them.

Killings in the name of religion? People do the killings and often use religion as a tool.

Luckily for us, programming is only about logic.  :t
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 13, 2018, 07:03:51 PM
Philology is in fact an interesting field and some truly great minds have done a lot of work there. I am incredibly rusty in this area but I do know my way around ancient documents and here both the historical Jewish writings and the Christian era documents are well understood and this goes down to the actual documents.

For the Jewish literature you not only have the Dead Sea scrolls that date from around the century or so before the Christian era up to about AD 70 when Jerusalem was trashed by the Romans. There is a later collection from a synagogue in Cairo (about 1000 years old) that yielded a massive collection of ancient Jewish scrolls.

The Christian literature comes from a different tradition, mixed between Alexandria and Rome there are a few variant versions of what is now known of the New Testament.

I only remember a few but they are important ones, Codex Vaticanus is 4th century CE and is in the Vatican museum. Codex Siniaticus is in the museum in England and it is slightly later, about 5th century. A few other names come to mind, the Chester Beatty collection goes back to the late 2nd century and there are thousands of others of ages from the second century up to the middle ages.

Old documents prove nothing but it well buries the middle to late 19th century assumptions about the combined old and new testament being repeatedly edited at a much later period. Also the era of Greek is very well understood so there is little need to re-translate the old Catholic bibles. Interestingly enough one of the great brains of this field was a Dutch scholar named Erasmus who did serious translations of older documents and while he did not have access at the oldest of documents, in the middle to late 1500s his work was very well received.

He was in fact a moderate Catholic scholar at an unhappy time around the start of the European reformation where wars were waged for religious reasons.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 14, 2018, 09:55:26 AM
hello sir Siekmanski, I'm sorry for the delay in answering, today was a busy day.

I also like logic, particularly George Boole or Boolean algebra. In the past it was one of the subjects taught by the liberal arts, trivium and quadrivium, in counterpoint with the mechanical arts. Trivium, grammar, logic (dialectic) and rhetoric, while Quadrivium taught arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy.

There is good discussion of creationists and evolutionists.

Yes, I have already spoken in those names, Dawkins is atheist, Darwinist, I like to inform myself, I attended lectures and debates on youtube. I suggest William Lane Craig.
An example of logic, if I speak well of a God who does not exist how can this God be enslaving?

hugs

Interesting your post sir hutch.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 14, 2018, 10:14:20 AM

Yes, I have already spoken in those names, Dawkins is atheist, Darwinist, I like to inform myself, I attended lectures and debates on youtube. I suggest William Lane Craig.
An example of logic, if I speak well of a God who does not exist how can this God be enslaving?

The "logic" behind this is that believers think it is OK and normal to have slaves as farm tools because its written in the bible.

Have you seen this video between Lawrence Krauss vs William Lane Graig?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBGWFB2W1O8

I like to know what you think of the views of these two people.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 14, 2018, 10:37:38 AM
Hello sir Siekmanski;

Well, slaves as told in the bible do not have the same meaning as we understand today. If we look at the past, the Ottoman, Persian, Roman, Greek, Inca, Aztec, Mayan, Brazilian Indian, African, ... empire. All kinds of races have already been enslaved, without exception; white, yellow or black, we have all been enslaved. What the Bible says is about servitude; something like, you saved my life, I'll be your servant until you die or when you abolish me.
Something like the words of Nostradamus; "the black serpent will kill more than any war," being a visionary he wished to say "the roads will kill more than any war." A symbolism just being used.

I have not seen the video yet, I'll see tomorrow.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 15, 2018, 02:17:38 AM
Back in the 1950s Bertrand Russell debated the same topic with a Jesuit theologian, Father Frederick Copleston and this debate is generally a reference work for undergraduate philosophy students. Russell attacked the old Catholic proofs for the existence of God, Copleston attacked Russell's construction of ethics without a religious base.

I think there was a general consensus that there was no winner and this is probably the normal result for a debate of this type. You cannot develop a superset from a subset so the notion of a formal proof for the existence of God cannot be got off the ground. Likewise the foundation of ethics is not based on fact or some notion of logic, ethics are effectively an arbitrary collection of rules made by men from a wide variety of sources, utilitarian, religious, survival and are imposed generally by force, law of the land etc ....

Interestingly enough the earliest notion of a monotheistic God was from the Pharoah Akenaton who booted out the old Amen Ra and worshipped the single sun god Aton, thus the inflection at the end of his name. His son, Tut Ank Amen (name = Tut, Ank said he was the king and Amen was his god) changed his name back to the Amen inflection after his father died. I might be wrong but I don't think there was another monotheistic god until the Hebrews.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 15, 2018, 04:22:04 AM
I like the morals and ethics from Starfleet ( Star Trek ) based on learning, logic and reasoning.  :biggrin:

We come in peace.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: AW on August 15, 2018, 05:52:56 AM
Saying hello from London, the most religion and race tolerant place in the World. Arghhh.  :icon_rolleyes:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/5k9tuzm8wtpj7bb/london.png?dl=1)
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: nidud on August 15, 2018, 06:50:19 AM
So to be religious is to believe in evil to justify doing evil which is evil. Sounds evil but nevertheless logical.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 15, 2018, 07:20:13 AM
Did you just quoted the holy book?

Other historical examples of violent and unjust acts supported by biblical teachings include:
the Inquisition; the Crusades; the burning of witches; religious wars; pogroms against Jews; persecution of homosexuals; forceful conversions of heathens; slavery; beatings of children; brutal treatment of the mentally ill; suppression of scientists; and whippings, mutilations, and violent executions of persons convicted of crimes.
Those acts were a regular part of the Christian world for centuries.

Q: Is religion evil ?

Some Cruelties and Contradictions in the Bible.

The list is so long I had to zip it.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: felipe on August 15, 2018, 12:11:23 PM
Nice pic Aw.  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 15, 2018, 03:59:29 PM
 :biggrin:

Then on the other hand we have Pol Pot, Nazi-ism, world wide massacres of indigenous populations for their land, the mongol invasion of Eurasia and a massive list of others, what's new ? There are many excuses for appalling conduct, religion is just one of many. Now after seeing the world full of non religious conduct, doesn't it make you wanna worship Krishna ?  :P
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: jj2007 on August 15, 2018, 07:40:08 PM
Pol Pot & friends are surely good examples of atrocities committed not in the name of God. But here is a very recent report (http://media-downloads.pacourts.us/InterimRedactedReportandResponses.pdf?cb=42148) about what the representatives of the Christian God did to kids in the richest country of the World, under the eyes of the authorities. It happens all the time, not in Cambodia but in "civilised" rich OECD countries.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 15, 2018, 07:53:28 PM
I agree with that Hutch, ideology and evil leaders can be just as bad as religion.

Quote
doesn't it make you wanna worship Krishna ?  :P

Nahh, don't like their haircuts.  :biggrin:

I worship the great Masm Assembler, it is scientifically proven a real creator.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 15, 2018, 10:33:07 PM
The link that JJ posted refers to a very unfortunate situation that is very old, I had a friend that was born in 1901 and he told me his father took him out of the Catholic school due to the risk to children. I see it as the consequence of a decision made by the Catholic church about 800 years ago that required the clergy to be celibate and that was a reaction to earlier high up clergy living a lifestyle that could not be seen as conforming to their core belief.

It may have solved one problem but it led to another, the long historical abuse of children by celibate clergymen and it has done untold damage to a massive number of children over hundreds of years. The solution for the Catholic church would be to require clergymen to be married family men and this would probably not be a problem as historically the nuns were also restricted in this manner. Join them up as married couples and you would remove most of the temptation.

As far as the offenders, I am happy enough to see them jailed for many years as long as the evidence is there. I am very wary of the attacks on the institution of the Catholic church, an ancient organisation with grindingly slow methods of change was generally a situation where those who were concerned just did not know how to fix it

We had a situation here in OZ where a senior Catholic clergyman as soon as he was appointed high enough as a bishop, changed many things and removed a number of offenders yet he is the target of abuse claims in what appears to be a "Catholic Revenge" approach of trying to take down someone high up in the church. I won't mention his name for normal legal reasons as matters are before a court but from listening to him in a number of interviews, he is a dry old theologian who is at the other end of the spectrum from the creeps that offended against children.

I am not personally of a Catholic background but I would prefer to see the truth rather than revenge being applied here. I would hope that the wide exposure of this problem would result in better protection of children but I would not hold my breath, money, perversions and stealth tend to find a way.

Something I should have mentioned here in OZ, the theory of "Stranger Danger" is widely promoted yet the stats show that the major risk to children is from people close to them, family members, family friends and people in authority.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: AW on August 16, 2018, 12:45:06 AM
Nice pic Aw.  :icon_cool:
A picture may be worth up to 1000 words. Amen.  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: jj2007 on August 16, 2018, 01:25:35 AM
The link that JJ posted refers to ... The solution for the Catholic church would be to require clergymen to be married family men

That might help indeed; the Maronites, part of the catholic church btw, allow marriage. But it doesn't explain why the management of that church asked their staff to burn women ("witches"), or asked them to cut the balls off little boys to make their voices "pure". The history of that church is extremely cruel, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the ideas that Jesus tried to teach his people. But sure, I have met some honest and good-willing priests and nuns, too. It is the top level that is foul and corrupt.

And not all churches are like that, to be fair. This gentlemen is archbishop of a peaceful church (https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/raad-van-state-erkent-de-aanhangers-van-het-vliegende-spaghettimonster-niet-als-religieuzen~bb6b92ed/):(https://images0.persgroep.net/rcs/JWXyL2z-lttIADKRO0R4rYxVKuQ/diocontent/130119206/_fitwidth/763?appId=93a17a8fd81db0de025c8abd1cca1279&quality=0.8)
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 16, 2018, 06:39:35 AM
I am very wary of generalising across an entire institution when finally they are made up of a large number of individuals, the vast majority of which has nothing to do with the indiscretions of the few. Addressing what is now Italy and Spain in the past, the church was an instrument of political control of the respective populations and it had been that way in much of Europe since Charlemaine who exercise the approach of convert or die. His grandfather "Charles the Hammer" Martel saved France from the Islamic version of the same convert or die. Isabella and Ferdinand used the Catholic religion in Spain for much the same purpose and conducted pogroms again Moors and Jews to reinforce that control. The long period of the inquisition under Torquemada and later maintained control by fear until Napoleon ended the inquisition.

Creating castrato is much more Italian than Catholic and with popes of early periods in Europe, they behave more like kings than clergymen and treated ordinary people in much the same way as royalty did. I can safely say this much as someone who does not have a Catholic background, the vast majority of lay Catholics are appalled by the conduct of a narrow few and I don't see that they should be the target of criticism for what a narrow few have done and I include the vast majority of the Catholic clergy as well.

We had a situation here in OZ of this disgusting politician who was at one time the Mayor of Wollongong who was commonly known to have had his wicked way with a massive number of little boys but it did catch up with him. I was down the south coast at a friend's house when an unusual murder was reported, an old dentist had been bashed to death in his unit. Shortly after there was another identical murder and this time it was this disgusting old bastard who had been plastered all over his unit.

The interviews I saw on the news with young guys who had been the victims of this old bastard said they would have liked to have been able to do it themselves. The police eventually found this deranged kid who had been a victim of similar abuse and sad to say he has been locked up and will never be released where I would have awarded him a medal for his service to society.

Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 16, 2018, 11:02:19 AM
It is not necessary to be religious to commit atrocities, on the contrary, being religious we have a guide not to commit them. I remember the thief who asked for forgiveness at the last moment of his life and was forgiven; this is why Jesus is with his head turned to the right side on the cross.

Formerly the king spoke up and the church spoke down. It was a political dispute. How to overthrow the power of the church? Infiltrating, what happens nowadays.

The church committed atrocities, I agree. The church follows a book, the same book I follow, are just mouthpieces.

As far as I know, same sex does not reproduce; why homosexuals want to get married in church? They can marry in civil, or in other words, this is a political matter. Pedophilia is a political or civil matter, society is the one to judge; and what do you expect society to judge? Being against pedophilia. I already see the time when necrophilia, bestiality will be common, if it is not being !!!. Dogs have sex with their mothers, without guilt, this is what separates us from animals. It is not necessary to have religion to understand this.

Slavery I have already commented, but I will strengthen, who saved the people of Egypt? Were they there at leisure?
When they discovered the American continent, there were Indians. The church wanted to expand its doctrine of faith in counterpoint to the Islamism that was growing in Asia. The American Indian is polytheistic, accepts everything, while the african possesses his own religion. The Indian did not know how to plant, he looked around and saw trees and trees with fruits, he did not understand why he could plant while the africans knew. This was one of the reasons they had enslaved African. In Africa, a tribe invaded the other, an african enslaved the other and sold or bartered with the Europeans. In America, africans suffered injuries but africans formed families.
Now what I do not hear, Eastern culture imported 3 times more African slaves compared to all slaves in America and Europe combined. What happened to them? Anybody know? I know, they did not form families, they had their sex organs cut off so they would not breed.

Look, you talked about witches. In Asia, to this day, a woman who has committed adultery is stoned. The first stone is of the betrayed husband, the rest of the people. Why do not you talk about this, it's happening now. Oh yes, the witches ....

I will summarize not to put in a zipped bible file :). Why did they attack the Catholic church like Lawrence did? I will introduce you to Islam. Why do not you criticize Islamism, Hinduism, Spiritualism, Buddhism, ...? Only Catholics. I know the answer, because they know that Catholics are complacent, they have discernment between interpretation. This is a global order consequence.

The western society we know today has only reached this level because of the Catholic church.

Shoot the first stone who never sinned.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: nidud on August 16, 2018, 12:55:58 PM
The Indian did not know how to plant, he looked around and saw trees and trees with fruits, he did not understand why he could plant while the africans knew.

 :biggrin:

Agriculture on the American continent can be traced back more than 10 000 years. They where the ones who domesticated the potato after all. The main crops they used was corn, beans, and squash. But true, they didn't have any cows. They where domesticated by the Africans for more than 12 000 years ago.

It takes more than 10 000 years to adapt to a new diet so these Africans are the only people who is able to eat meat, drink blood and fat milk without clogging up their veins.

As for the aboriginal Norwegians they adapted to seafood early on and some of them settled on the west coast of the continent for more than 11 000 years ago. They where the Yaghan people.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 16, 2018, 11:40:25 PM
The western society we know today has only reached this level because of the Catholic church.

I disagree with you, we could by at a much higher level in society without religious indoctrination.

Knowledge of Greek science deteriorated in Western Europe during the Middle Ages, caused by Christianity.
We lost at least 1000 years of scientific progression. ( Damn, I could be on a spaceship exploring the Universe by now.  :biggrin:)
We slowly picked up science again in the last 300 years. (in the fear not to be killed by religious fanatics.)

I'll keep it by 1 example,

How is it possible we live twice as long as 150 years ago?
Thanks to natural sciences (e.g. biology, chemistry, physics) and not to Christianity.

Can you give me 1 example of scientific contribution to society by religion over say, the last 300 years?
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 17, 2018, 01:01:12 AM
x
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 17, 2018, 02:25:34 AM
Can you give me 1 example of scientific contribution to society by religion over say, the last 300 years?
Cmon man, you're talking about science; science and religion can walk together.
Recent examples of war have shown us how science has evolved, and I do not mean science badly.
I'm tired.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 17, 2018, 04:37:36 AM
Yes, in modern time religions accept science such as Darwin's Theory Of Evolution because it is a proven fact.

Good, bad and evil ( morals and ethics ) is a human learning process and is evenly divided and present amongst atheists and theists.

Don't forget I respect everybody's views.
It's not my intention to sound rude.
It's the Dutch culture to be direct and not to be "politically correct".
This is the Dutch way to explain the difference between Atheist and Theist,

Atheist: relies on science where no deities are needed to explain the workings of the Universe.
Theist: relies on a holy book and the need of deities ( born out of ignorance or misunderstanding ) to explain the workings of the Universe.

This is my last comment on this topic, else it will be a never ending discussion.
Let's create CODE not WAR.  :t
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 19, 2018, 12:37:37 AM
 :biggrin:

> Can you give me 1 example of scientific contribution to society by religion over say, the last 300 years?

Can you give me 1 example of religious contribution to society by science over say, the last 300 years?

Sorry Marinus, I could not resist.  :P
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 19, 2018, 12:56:47 AM
Some hundreds of years ago a German philosopher named Emanuel Kant produced an analysis of ranges of conflicting views about a variety of topics. It went like this, for any given category/topic/target etc .... there can at best be one view that is true and the rest are false but all views can be false. The term was "antinomies" and among other things it well applies to religious/anti religious debates.

Neither the theist or atheist can produce a viable proof for their position and with some humour, both are driven by faith, not reason. Both can produce open questions but neither has evidence that their view is right and I doubt that either will ever improve. As long as neither try and inflict their view on me by force, I simply don't care what others believe.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 19, 2018, 01:18:22 AM
 :biggrin:

I can't resist to answer this one.

NONE, or it came from an atheist disguised as a theist.

It's the responsibility for those who claim something exists, to come with the evidence.
You can't prove a negative.
I can not prove there are no unicorns.  :P
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: AW on August 19, 2018, 02:08:14 AM
Quote
I can not prove there are no unicorns.  :P

That's the Russel Teapot. People that makes unfalsifiable claims must prove them!
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 19, 2018, 03:05:10 AM
Analogy confirmed.  :t
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 19, 2018, 02:20:27 PM
Proof is a lot more complicated than most think. In maths and logic you can deliver deductive proof but this is because you already have the axioms of each system. When someone asks about the axioms you start to get into trouble there as well. Russell in his later life held the view that for axiomatic systems to be valid, they must be based off real world systems, that is, inductive proof.

Now inductive proof is another animal altogether, you will get little complaint from most of the world's population about the sun rising in the east but as the sample gets smaller, you get statements like "A billion people in India cannot be wrong about Lord Shiva destroying and renewing life" except that if you live in Pakistan you would be more inclined to say "A billion Muslims cannot be wrong about Allah having created the world" but when they want to say that Iblis (The Islamic Devil) has possessed you and you need to have it exorcised, I would start to object and be willing to defend myself.

Personally I tend to agree with the English philosopher David Hume that statements about the world at large need to be empirically verified so while statements about the colour of little men on Mars may be funny, I doubt that anything apart from speculation will ever follow from it. I am a fan of objective empirical data as it is accumulative and if something is found to be wrong, even if only slightly so (Newtonian v Einsteinian laws of motion), it can be adjusted and still work OK.

The problem with deductive closed systems (any) is that if one part breaks, the system breaks.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 19, 2018, 06:52:00 PM
Philosophy is a nice tool to try and find explanations.
But what if you "intentionally" leave out empirically verified data that is not understood.

Dr. William Lane Craig, born in 1949 in Peoria, Illinois, is an American Christian apologist, philosopher, and theologian.
He wittingly misquotes opponents in a debate, in some sense it is just hilarious.
The advocate of Christianity.

Craig claims that religious faith must be spread through appeals to reason and logic or atheism will triumph. However, this is more about crafting a more effective "sales pitch", than any real commitment to reason as Craig is essentially willing to abandon reason if it provides the "wrong" answers (i.e. those incompatible with Craig's religious dogma)

Some of his quotes:

"The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence.
And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that this controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit." :dazzled:

"I think Martin Luther correctly distinguished between what he called the magisterial and ministerial uses of reason. The magisterial use of reason occurs when reason stands over and above the gospel like a magistrate and judges it on the basis of argument and evidence. The ministerial use of reason occurs when reason submits to and serves the gospel.... Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter." :dazzled:

The KCA of Craig is an example of begging the question or circular reasoning. Craig presumes that the phrase "whatever begins to exist" is God. This presupposition puts God into the premise of the argument that was supposed to prove his existence in the first place. This is also most likely an example of special pleading, as the first premise, "Everything that begins to exist has a cause", can be rewritten as "Everything that is not God has a cause" (unless there exists some other thing or things which did not begin to exist). In addition, another way of looking at this is with the following syllogism:

1.Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.The universe began to exist.
3.Therefore the universe has a cause.

Even if this syllogism is valid, it does not imply what that cause is. To state that the cause is a god, the Christian God, or any other entity requires additional statements, not to mention that it contains no definition of "God" or "god", making Craig's discussion fail in several ways.

In addition, if some things exist did not begin to exist, then even accepting the other premises does not lead to the Christian God as the answer. Craig offers no evidence for a god (or God), but merely asserts that a god must have been the cause. Craig's description is an example of an argument from ignorance.

1.Bishops can only move diagonally.
2.The Pope is the Bishop of Rome.
3.Therefore, the Pope can only move diagonally.

William Lane Craig Debunked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE80p6i8Sug&list=PL10E203F4FBC0E37E

BTW Humans are easily fooled and let them believe. An example:

In the Netherlands 67% of the people have a contract for "Green" Energy.
They think they are helping to get a better environment but, they don't know that there is only 2% Green energy available.
The missing Green energy are certificates bought from Norway.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 20, 2018, 04:20:11 AM
I suggest that bad arguments stand on both sides of the debate. The argument that Craig tries to reformulate is the 12th century "proof" by Thomas Aquinas, the argument of the "First Mover" and it is finally an open argument. It is not a proof but it pulls the plug on the alternative, the need for an infinite regression of "movers", both sides come to grief on this argument as "infinite" can never be verified and you have no proof to assert that there was a "First Mover".

I remember the expression "Mere Theology" when it came to the type of reasoning that many clergy have tried to use, the mixture of faith and data but it ends up being "Mere Theology". Likewise the assumption of uniformity over time is simply not subject to proof unless you can infinitely regress and empirically verify it which is the same problem of trying to prove infinity.

Both are trying to account for the existence of the universe, one by God (whatever flavour) and the other by a mix of hair brain theories and infinite duration. I leave such acts of faith alone and stick to an empirical style of evidence which gets tweaked from time to time on the basis of the available evidence. There is yet another range of theories that I see on Youtube when I am brain dead, the UFO/Aliens who are supposed to have seeded the world with their offspring/creations and who are supposed to have been seen as gods.

At least in European religious art there are some odd things flying around in the background but I suggest that it falls far short of proof. The vedic era writings have some truly wild stuff that does not fit any modern narrative.

The truly deep and meaningful thing I have done today was to find and download an upgrade for my Sony AX700 camera and if its not too cold outside later today, I will see if its any better.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 20, 2018, 04:50:38 AM
Scientists fail to create a cure for headache to date, something that affects 96% of the world's population; they can not explain the gravity to this day, just measure, they can not reproduce human blood in a way that blood transfusion or donation is needed, but they talk about cloning; they do not know what happens when the light enters the black hole, if it is lost or Lavoisier. They say about multiverses, you can die in this world we talk about but it's alive in another universe. But they have absolute certainty that God does not exist. Really? This don't glue on me.
When will scientists stop bragging about something they can not explain? Simple, placing blame on something they can not explain. Some Dilbert problems still has no solution, waste your time trying to solve them, will be more fruitful.

I am politically incorrect, even because science, politics, and religion are different things. Richard Dawkins fled the debate with Craig without even analyzing the curriculum vitae of it, just messages on the internet, why did not you say this? Then came his squire, Lawrence, unfriendly, anxious, pacing back and forth as if he were the master of reason, wanting in an egocentric way to refute even without being able to do so. On the other side, someone calm, standing, looking down, thinks, reflects, to respond. The body spoke more than the mouth in the debate.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 20, 2018, 05:28:37 AM
Quote
But they have absolute certainty that God does not exist. Really? This don't glue on me.

Science makes it possible not to believe in God.

Quote
Richard Dawkins fled the debate with Craig without even analyzing the curriculum vitae of it, just messages on the internet, why did not you say this?

Why I refuse to debate with William Lane Craig
Richard Dawkins

This Christian 'philosopher' is an apologist for genocide. I would rather leave an empty chair than share a platform with him.
https://www.richarddawkins.net/2011/10/why-i-refuse-to-debate-with-william-lane-craig/

Quote
Then came his squire, Lawrence, unfriendly, anxious, pacing back and forth as if he were the master of reason, wanting in an egocentric way to refute even without being able to do so. On the other side, someone calm, standing, looking down, thinks, reflects, to respond. The body spoke more than the mouth in the debate.

Craig is a master in debating techniques, but has no scientific knowledge, therefore no match for Lawrence Krauss.

Honest scientists and philosophers, rightly refuse to debate with quacks and charlatans, on an academic platform where charlatans can pose as equals, or present dishonest obfuscating waffle as “logic”.
Craig may have cheerleaders among the uneducated, indoctrinated and deluded, in the blogosphere, but among competent scientists, and logical thinkers, he is a laughing-stock.

One thing science and religion have in common is, both can't prove God exists.  :t
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: nidud on August 20, 2018, 07:19:12 AM
 :biggrin:

Science is a method not a truth committee.

You pour some water on the fire and it goes out. The conclusion from this scientific research is that fire and water don't mix so you may use water as a fire extinguisher.

However, knowledge is exploitable and useful ones established and the method itself do encourage this behavior. Given both fire and water do indeed come from the thundercloud the above "science" may be put into question.

When will scientists stop bragging about something they can not explain?

So now god lives in the dark thundercloud.

   Redeem thy life from Hell,
   and find me the water's flame.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: mineiro on August 20, 2018, 08:05:46 AM
This is just a conversation, nothing personal gentlemen. I'm mature enough to separate things.
Socrates did this a lot, he opposed ideas to be debated ... It was one of the divisors of seas because until then the people, naturalists, believed in the 4 elements as being superior, water, earth, fire, air, not necessarily in this order.
Speaking of Philosophy, it was they who discovered the atom, something scientifically proven times after.

Well, about proving whether God exists is another story. I can feel, and how could I prove omnipresence? The all in all.

Hutch, Nidud, Siekmanski, something tells me that you believe in God. You can talk, do not be ashamed :). Open your hearts, have faith and hope.

Oh, my last post have a typo, is not Dilbert, but Hilbert problems.
(https://i.imgur.com/uR4WuQ0.gif)
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 20, 2018, 08:44:26 AM
 :t

Quote
Well, about proving whether God exists is another story. I can FEEL, and how could I prove omnipresence? The all in all.

Well, my brain tells me feelings can hurt when not understood.

Quote
Hutch, Nidud, Siekmanski, something tells me that you believe in God. You can talk, do not be ashamed :). Open your hearts, have faith and hope.

Luckily for me I'm not indoctrinated as a child ( only 17% in my country are theists ) with horror fairytales and ignorance.
Thanks to my parents and my education, I am free to think what I want and don't need to listen or to obey to an evil spokesman of an undefined entity.
My heart is open for reality and my faith and hope is in science.

My hope was to explore the universe in a spaceship.  :biggrin: ( has been taken away from me by religion )
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 20, 2018, 08:07:25 PM
Antiquity had the correct distinction via one of the ancient "schoolmen" William of Occam. He simple drew the distinction between science and religion, the former being the empirical sciences, the latter being the mediaevil church. Now if you were a member of Dun's school (Duns Scotis), you were politically incorrect and always wrong and thus a "dunce" in modern English.

Now mineiro has an interesting point here, "science" has a near parallel history to religion and it has developed over time, only a hundred years ago, you had to postulate "ether" to fill the spaces between objects in space, these days we call it a vacuum, go back a bit further, another 400 years or so and the world was flat and if you sailed too far west in the Atlantic, you would fall off the edges. In modern times you would have to fall off the Empire State Building.

Going back further, you have the ancient Greek concept of the 4 elements yet today we have many more. This concept came back into Europe in the 11th/12th century via the Moors who had preserved the Greek and Roman sciences. It was the church in Spain that translated the arabic versions of the sciences into latin and spread it around Europe.

My point for mentioning this information is the near parallel development of religion and science, both having developed over time and neither being in a position to seriously criticise the other, even though both have made their criticisms over time. It was religion through the Muslim Moors and Catholic Spanish that preserved the old knowledge which in part led to the modern forms of science that we now know.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on August 21, 2018, 01:15:46 AM
> Luckily for me I'm not indoctrinated as a child ( only 17% in my country are theists ) with horror fairytales and ignorance.

Its not my area but I know that the Spanish occupation of the Netherlands was a nasty brutal affair and it had much to do with why the Netherlands developed a very high level of tolerance to different religious views as a consequence.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 21, 2018, 04:58:42 AM
In my lifetime I never experienced any serious friction between different religions.
Think we are a tolerant country compared to other countries.
Although there is one migrant group that's not willing to integrate and participate in Dutch society.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: caballero on August 21, 2018, 05:29:50 AM
In reality Spain did not occupy The Netherlands. Due to the marriage policy of Spain with other European royal houses, Carlos I was born, the heir to the throne of Spain, in Ghent (Belgium). Subsequently, due to the lack of offspring in this house, he was also the heir to the throne of several European territories, to which belonged what we now know as the Netherlands.

Here are the European territories of Charles I due exclusively to dynastic rights:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Empire-Roman-Emperor-Charles-V.jpg/250px-Empire-Roman-Emperor-Charles-V.jpg)

When Carlos I died or V of Germany and happened to him in the throne Felipe II, this one not even knew to be expressed in the language of this territory (and it does not surprise to me), reason why was considered a stranger. For this and other reasons, the Flanders war happened.

There is a beautiful painting about it drawn by one of the greatest painters of all history, Velázquez. It's in the Prado Museum, in Madrid. The painting is called The Surrender of Breda.
(https://cloud10.todocoleccion.online/postales-arte/tc/2011/04/20/26232040.jpg)

In it one sees in the foreground General Espinola in the service of Spain accepting with courtesy the surrender of Justin Nassau, of the Orange house, delivering the keys of the city.

Interestingly, San Nicolás or Sinterklaas in Dutch is the Santa Claus in Holland. He seems to be a saint who lives in Madrid, Spain, and is loaded with sweets for Dutch children.

A couple of years ago I saw a horror movie about San Nicolás. Curious.
https://youtu.be/lYCBKgzuNak
https://youtu.be/2z8XAo4Lpuw

I imagine that all the zombies were evil Spaniards.

xx
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 21, 2018, 07:52:26 AM
yeah Alfonso, our ancestors had a little bit of a fight.

The Eighty Years' War (Dutch: Tachtigjarige Oorlog; Spanish: Guerra de los Ochenta Años) or Dutch War of Independence (1568–1648)was a revolt of the Seventeen Provinces of what are today the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg against the political and religious hegemony of Philip II of Spain, the sovereign of the Habsburg Netherlands. After the initial stages, Philip II deployed his armies and regained control over most of the rebelling provinces. Under the leadership of the exiled William the Silent, the northern provinces continued their resistance. They eventually were able to oust the Habsburg armies, and in 1581 they established the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands. The war continued in other areas, although the heartland of the republic was no longer threatened; this included the beginnings of the Dutch Colonial Empire, which at the time were conceived as carrying overseas the war with Spain. After a 12-year truce in which the Dutch Republic achieved de facto recognition, hostilities broke out again around 1619, which can be said to coincide with the Thirty Years' War. An end was reached in 1648 with the Peace of Münster (a treaty part of the Peace of Westphalia), when the Dutch Republic was definitively recognised as an independent country. The Republic had already been recognized by Spain and the major European powers at the occasion of the Twelve Years' Truce of 1609. The Peace of Münster was also the start of the Dutch Golden Age.

Quote
> there is one migrant group that's not willing to integrate
I do not know what it is, but I imagine it will be the unnamable group. One can shit in the holy catholic church, but friend, who dares to do the same in the unnamable?

Yes, I meant the Muslims.

Quote
> Interestingly, San Nicolás or Sinterklaas in Dutch is the Santa Claus in Holland. He seems to be a saint who lives in Madrid, Spain, and is loaded with sweets for Dutch children.

The feast of Sinterklaas celebrates the name day of Saint Nicholas on 6 December. The feast is celebrated annually with the giving of gifts on St. Nicholas' Eve (5 December) in the northern parts of the Netherlands and on the morning of 6 December, Saint Nicholas Day, in the southern provinces of the Netherlands, as well as Belgium, Luxembourg and northern France (French Flanders, Lorraine and Artois). The tradition is also celebrated in territories of the former Dutch Empire, including Curaçao and Suriname.

Sinterklaas is based on the historical figure of Saint Nicholas (270–343), a Greek bishop of Myra in present-day Turkey.
Later moved to Madrid in Spain. He is depicted as an elderly, stately and serious man with white hair and a long, full beard. He wears a long red cape or chasuble over a traditional white bishop's alb and sometimes red stola, dons a red mitre and ruby ring, and holds a gold-coloured crosier, a long ceremonial shepherd's staff with a fancy curled top. He traditionally rides a white horse.
Sinterklaas carries a big, red book in which is written whether each child has been good or naughty in the past year.

All children regardless with or without religion ( except the Jehovah witnesses ) share this feast.
At age 7-8 the children are told by their parents and school teachers that Sinterklaas is not a true story and doesn't exist.

The festivities traditionally begin each year in mid-November (the first Saturday after 11 November), when Sinterklaas "arrives" by a steamboat at a designated seaside town, from Madrid in Spain.
In the Netherlands this takes place in a different port each year, whereas in Belgium it always takes place in the city of Antwerp. The steamboat anchors, then Sinterklaas disembarks and parades through the streets on his horse, welcomed by children cheering and singing traditional Sinterklaas songs. His Zwarte Piet assistants throw candy and small, round, gingerbread-like cookies, either kruidnoten or pepernoten, into the crowd. The event is broadcast live on national television in the Netherlands and Belgium.

Sinterklaas is the primary source of the popular Christmas icon of Santa Claus.

I watched the Sinterklaas movie too, cool movie.  :badgrin:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: jj2007 on August 21, 2018, 11:40:05 AM
The feast of Sinterklaas celebrates the name day of Saint Nicholas on 6 December. The feast is celebrated annually with the giving of gifts on St. Nicholas' Eve (5 December) in the northern parts of the Netherlands and on the morning of 6 December, Saint Nicholas Day, in the southern provinces of the Netherlands, as well as Belgium, Luxembourg and northern France (French Flanders, Lorraine and Artois). The tradition is also celebrated in territories of the former Dutch Empire, including Curaçao and Suriname.

Sinterklaas is based on the historical figure of Saint Nicholas (270–343), a Greek bishop of Myra in present-day Turkey.

You forgot some countries (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbo_Natale#Antiche_origini_cristiane) ;)
Quote
In Europa (in particolare nei Paesi Bassi, in Belgio, Austria, Svizzera, Germania, Repubblica Ceca, Slovenia ed in alcune parti d'Italia) viene ancora rappresentato con abiti vescovili.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: Siekmanski on August 21, 2018, 05:16:39 PM
Thanks for the history lesson.  ;)

The Sinterklaas story goes all the way back to the Germanic Gods.

According to tradition, the children would leave their boots by the fireplace and fill them with roots, straw or sugar to feed the flying horse ( Sleipnir ) of Odin.
In return, Odin would replace the food with gifts or sweets. This practice survived in Belgium and the Netherlands even in the Christian era, associated with the figure of St. Nicholas.

That reminds me of a story in the Quran, prophet Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse.
Did I just came to the conclusion...... ohhh never mind.
Title: Fakebook
Post by: jj2007 on September 14, 2018, 03:48:34 AM
Since I do not have Facebook, I try to make friends outside of the real Facebook, applying the same principles.

So every day I go down the street and explain to passersby what I ate, how I feel, what I did the night before, what I'm going to do, what I will do tomorrow. I show some photos of my wife, my children and the dog, of me washing my car and of my wife sewing.

I also listen to people's conversations and say "I like it!"

And it's working!

Currently I already have 5 people following me: two policemen, a psychiatrist, a psychologist and a nurse.
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: felipe on September 14, 2018, 06:47:23 AM
 :P
Title: Re: Fakebook
Post by: LiaoMi on September 14, 2018, 07:35:02 AM

Currently I already have 5 people following me: two policemen, a psychiatrist, a psychologist and a nurse.

 :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: good team!
Title: Re: Fakebook
Post by: HSE on September 14, 2018, 09:04:40 AM
Currently I already have 5 people following me: two policemen, a psychiatrist, a psychologist and a nurse.

Well... finally they find you  :lol:
Title: Re: How programming works.....
Post by: hutch-- on September 14, 2018, 04:09:19 PM
The trick with Facebook  is not to get sucked in by the endless claptrap they wish to dump on you. Do you need hundreds to thousands of people you don't know passing a flood of chyte past you daily ? I ended up with a Facebook account after a blog I belonged to in Hong Kong was taken over by a mainland Chinese company that turned it to trash and the people I knew there went to Facebook. I run a closed account only accessible from people I know and have less than a dozen people in my friend list.

It is funny to see who they dredge up as new friend suggestions based of those you actually know. Some of these people I had not heard about for many years and will do my best not to hear from them for many years to come. I can tolerate the side ads but they keep trying to encroach on the message area and something that has been funny is their reaction to some of the recent security problems where they try to sound concerned about the data access they granted to a range of companies for a price.

I would not waste my time discussing politics on Facebook but now you have the Republican bureau of morality dictating what is hate speech and what is not driven by the #twitterati trial by stupidity.  :P
Title: Fakebook
Post by: jj2007 on September 14, 2018, 06:28:13 PM
I have basically two problems with Fakebook:

1. Too many people use it as their only platform. Even my local hobby group here insist that all their communications must go on FB, and nowhere else. So every time FB invites me to join, and I have to click "no thanks".

2. It sucks, it terribly sucks. Once you have communicated something through FB, you won't find it any more after a day or two because it will be buried among the claptrap. One of the most awful pieces of software I've ever seen. Only Adobe can compete!
 :icon13: :icon13: :icon13: :icon13: :icon13: :icon13: :icon13: :icon13: :icon13: :icon13: