The MASM Forum

General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: caballero on September 02, 2018, 04:32:06 AM

Title: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 02, 2018, 04:32:06 AM
Hello, I have been attending recently a speech about economic tendencies, from Guillermo Dorronsoro (https://www.sintetia.com/author/dorronsoro/). I have found it very interesting because he presents what he calls economic paradoxes that indicate that a change of economic model is coming.

According to Thomas S. Kuhn, in "The structure of scientific revolutions", we explain a reality by going to a model, a paradigm.

For example: the Earth is at the center of the Universe because we see that everything moves around it, including the Sun. However, they begin to accumulate paradoxes that refute this model, we will have to resort to a new model that manages to explain these paradoxes We go to the heliocentric model, which was banned until 1835. Paradigm changes take time.

Paradoxes:
1) If population and consumption, and research and technologies are growing very strong, why is the global economy stagnating at around 3%?
  - There are 7.4 million people on earth, in this century there will be the maximum number of people, from 2,100 will begin to decrease. The great demographic power is the one that increases its birth rate. The increase in the economy causes a decrease in the birth rate. Consumption will shoot up in India and China between 2020 and 2050.
  - Investing in research is spreading around the world, China will reach the USA in absolute values by 2025. This career implies that science and technology is increasing as never before in the world.
 
2) The curve of the elephant. The left is the poorest, the right is the richest. The poorest are escaping poverty for the most part. The richest are still richer. However, the middle classes of the richest countries, around 70% of the richest, their wealth has stagnated.

3) We will be able to generate bigger and better products at less price. Vatican has divested in Petroleum for sustainability issues. The photovoltaic system will decrease its production cost dramatically. The energy is going to be cheap. However, employment will be increasingly scarce.
  - Low qualification work grow: waiters, etc.
  - High qualification work grow: blockchain, big data, etc
  - Middle qualification work decrease. This is the paradoxe. Here are the middle classes.
 
  The speed of processing in computer systems increases remarkably. We will arrive in this century to the point of singularity: the AI will have reached humans. The jobs that up to now we worked, will be better done by the IA. Will come a part-time job, will have to work on several projects at once. In short employment of worse quality.
 
4) We have achieved a state of wellbeing that has never existed before. However, we realize that this system is unsustainable. At least in Spain, this system is pyramidal. The base is responsible for holding the top. In Spain, around the year 2050, 92.90% of the population will be dependent: under 16 years or over 64. 7% of the population will have to pay the party to the rest, being part of this percentage public administration, whose salary It leaves the rest of the workers. It is not sustainable.


Some indicators of paradigm change:
1) Heterogeneous society. We are living radically different generations as never before in history:
   - Builders
   - Baby boomers
   - X Generation
   - Y Generation or Millenials
   - Z Generation
   - As the change is accelerating, another one will come even more different
   
2) Digital change. Retail is falling brutally in the USA because Amazon's digital sales are rising brutally and small businesses can not compete. Sector by sector, the digital world is going to revolutionize.

3) Collaborative economy.
   - P2P transport
   - On-demand household services
   - Collaborative finance
   - P2P accomodation
   - On demand profesional services

   Less and less people use a taxi, for example, they use Uber, Cabify.
   
   Our economy was individual, including at the business level, owning something. The collaborative economy breaks this scheme. Every time this is being developed more in our days.
   
4) Circular economy.
   I have to worry that everything I do does not generate waste or avoid unnecessary travel to save costs. This is coming because it is a growing social demand and because the economy will start to become scarcer. This can create many opportunities in the middle class sector, for jobs of medium difficulty.
   
5) The investment in science in Spain is not one of the most advanced in Europe, being that Europe is not one of the largest in the world. Our level of competence is born corseted. However, this does not worry anything at the popular level.

6) On-line demand is developing more and more. Even cars, can be parameterized online and arrive in 2 or 3 weeks at home.

7) More and more countries accumulate more debt. If the champions were Europe, USA and Japan, lately India and China have joined the club.


What to do
Machiavelli, in his work "The Prince", chapter 25 (fortune, change) offers some advice in this regard, valid for the current situation:
- Adapt. Fortune, changes, is invincible. You have to understand what's coming and try to prepare for it.
- To resist. The change is hard and, therefore, learn to resist the challenges and know how to get up.
- Change. What needs to be changed, learn to change it and change it quickly, do not wait.
- Audacity We do not have to wrinkle before changes, we must have strength of spirit.


my Conclusions
All this is known at the level of economic professionals and I would say that at street level for anyone who knows how to add two plus two. However, the solution of the politicians is always to increase spending (the public debt) so that the legislature does not appreciate the problem, thereby significantly increasing the problem in the short term.

In Spain, the new government, the result of an agreement of a multitude of political parties, that is, without real support from the electorate, have decided to increase taxes significantly, without a logical reason behind. Simply to please their electorate, pushing forward the necessary reforms and increasing the risk. Yeah, there are many bills to pay.

Said a Dutch politician, Mark Rutte, who had not felt that Europe devote 70% of its budget to agricultural matters. Do we want to continue being agricultural?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: Siekmanski on September 02, 2018, 05:04:21 AM
Mark Rutte A.K.A Pinocchio :icon13: :icon13:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 02, 2018, 05:18:44 AM
Well, I don't know who's Mark Rutte, just what he says, it makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: Siekmanski on September 02, 2018, 06:40:23 AM
The Prime Minister of the Netherlands and the marionette puppet of Shell and Unilever, the Dutch call him Pinocchio because of all his lies.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 02, 2018, 09:10:43 AM
That's a lot of anecdotic fog with some arbitrarily picked statistics, but it completely misses the important trends. (http://time.com/money/5112233/oxfam-wealth-of-worlds-richest/)
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 02, 2018, 11:32:43 AM
There is something missing in the equation to change the functioning of societies, cleaning out the top end as well as the rest. The French did it by chopping their heads off, Russia had a revolution, Iran got the Ayotollah, Pinochette got the shove and it all shows that radical change has to be done from the top down, not just from the middle down.

Reform based on the interests of an elite class is nothing more than window dressing that ups their profits and screws the rest, yet another version of the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Now the French may have been more humane than many others but a blunt axe and a lousy axe man would be far more fun or a plank off a very tall building with the poverty stricken pushing the greedy bastards off the end.  :P
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 02, 2018, 03:26:33 PM
We had also our Pinocchio, a socialist con artist that put millions in his pocket and led the country to bankruptcy and Troika intervention. He is still to be judged and, as usual, will never pay for what he did.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/kaa2va69pkjs2hq/pinoquio.png?dl=1)
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 02, 2018, 06:22:15 PM
Quote
Pinocchio and his girlfriend were making a 69 when she shouted to him: "Pinocchio, TELL ME A LIE, TELL ME A LIE"
Sorry, just a joke. :biggrin:

I forgot to include the the problem of sovereign debt, that I include now.

@JJ
I think there's no doubt on the data presented here, even more each one of us already know them. The author tried not to give them any political overtones. For example, I would add as an obvious element of social heterogeneity the fact that Europe has accumulated over the last decades large groups of different ethnicities and religions, which did not exist before, which can cause social tensions. It seems that he did not dare to add this element.

The trend you say he forgot is reflected in the curve of the elephant, already mentioned in the second paradox.
(https://ideas.economiadigital.es/uploads/s1/38/40/93/branko-milanovice-global-inequality-elephant-curve-84093.png?t=1478804650)

@Hutch
Yes, the data is there and we seem to only think about continuing to get into debt. What does not seem like a good idea, because we will devote a large part of our budget to paying off debt, which makes the richest richer, who are the ones who lend the money. Here, even, the term "right to borrow" or "austericide" has been coined.

Politicians do not seem to be the solution, they look for short-termism and do not look for solutions to improve the solution in the future, because it is unpopular. That is to say, are we, the voters, who are ultimately responsible for the bad practices of our politicians.

@AW
We also have our Pinocchio. When Zapatero came to power, Spain's debt was at 40%, he left it at 70% and Rajoy raised it to 100%.

In the time of Zapatero noone could even mention the word "crisis" (economic). And they invented any linguistic turn to not use it. It was pretty funny. The problem is that if they accepted the existence of the crisis, they would have had to make economic cuts, which is lethal for any left party. Finally, they were obliged, under penalty of dropping Spain, to cut the salaries of officials and retirees. It was lethal for his party, plummeted in the successive elections.

The current ones aim to raise the debt a lot more ... hhmmm, I do not know exactly why.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 02, 2018, 08:57:14 PM
There does seem to be wisdom in the idea that you can tell if a politician is lying if their mouth is moving. Ours are a bunch of R_SOULS and from what I hear, so are everyone else's. When you see politician creating policy that damages ordinary people and impoverishes the country you know they are kissing the arse of a global elite and trying to line their own pocket. The pursuit of the global elite is to produce 2 social classes, them and serfdom.

The only real solution is a top down change, asset strip the bastards, find them a job on a chain gang shovelling chyte or scrubbing public toilets with a toothbrush held in their teeth in the coldest places in the world, Patagonia, Alaska, Siberia or northern Canada, we don't want chyte like that in Antarctica.  :P
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: nidud on September 02, 2018, 10:18:20 PM
 :biggrin:

So back to the good old days then when property was the only value and ones settled the owners divides the sheep's into servants, farmers, and soldiers.

At one point the blacksmiths gained some personal freedom and managed to transfer some value into hard metal. As things progressed they needed guards and a large vault to safeguard the precious.

In the beginning this arrangement was mainly used by the oligarchs as a means of trade. When the merchant ships arrived the metal was collected by the blacksmith who verified and issued a certificate for the value. This was then used as means of payment at the associated trading companies.

The blacksmiths got organized and the guild started to issue fixed certificates which in turn was used as payment. As a result only 10% was collected so the guild started selling off the gold. This started a chain reaction where the number of issued certificates increased ten-fold before the scam was revealed.

The problem with this was that everybody benefited from the scam where the whole society ended up getting a ten-fold face-lift. Factories, schools, hospitals, bridges and roads was built and numerous jobs created, all facilitated by a grand theft perpetrated by a pack of scoundrels.

This is how words like economy and the modern way of fractional banking was created. Now money are created from credit so you basically create money by borrowing money: for each Euro you borrow ten freshly minted Euro's are created. If we stop the borrowing the whole thing collapses and we end up back in the good old days again.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 03, 2018, 12:24:04 AM
If we stop the borrowing the whole thing collapses and we end up back in the good old days again.
You are embarrassing the friends of Silvio Gesell :eusa_naughty:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 03, 2018, 01:59:41 AM
Interest on the debt has already cost 250,000 million to Spain since the beginning of the crisis.

(http://e04-elmundo.uecdn.es/elmundo/2017/graficos/abr/deuda320.jpg)

They are paid mainly to banks, investment funds (such as Norway, one of the world's leading) and national and international insurers.

The state has had to pay an average of 25,000 million euros a year to pay interest on debt since the beginning of the crisis.

The budget for 2017 allocates 32,006 million to the payment of interest on debt, twice as much as to pay unemployment benefits, when at the beginning of the crisis it was the reverse.

Source:
http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/04/03/58e298ace5fdea390d8b466c.html


Before the crisis and after it, money was borrowed. What is the difference?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 03, 2018, 07:19:48 AM
Quote
The current ones aim to raise the debt a lot more ... hhmmm, I do not know exactly why.
Let me guess.... hmmmm... increase the salaries of public servants! Bingo?
Public servants are those that will vote for them.
 
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 03, 2018, 09:44:31 AM
I'm here with caballero, AW and Siekmansi.
Sir Hutch, in the past I agree with you about France (Robespierre, Russeau, Montesquieu, ...) but now, ... .They approve pedophilia, I mean, if an 8 year old wants to have sex, it is not considered pedophilia, but if they do not want to, then it is characterized as yes. An 8 years old know about that? To me not. On the social level they are making socialism as we know, nothing new, just a new way of doing nothing new. I cry when I see fetuses being discarded as if they were trash, it seems like I'm alone. This is happening in USA and a lot of Europeans countries, South America too.
Well, I should not mix economy with social; but, I remember a speech about the current economy made by the Dutch banker Ronald Bernard.
The solution is simple; work, study, no one will read books for you, no one will plant for you, no one will strive for you; but everyone will want to have their earnings for something they did not do.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 03, 2018, 12:00:58 PM
The issue with children is never a happy one, in OZ we have just had a multi-year long royal commission into the abuse of children over a long period and it is almost exclusively a situation where an adult imposes their desires over a child who had no defence against them. My views on this subject are close to unprintable but the technique used by Daesh (Islamic state) of throwing people off the top of a grain silo comes to mind.

The abortion issue is an ugly trade off between bad and worse. I see it as a tragedy that children are terminated before they are born but the alternative is even worse. For reasons of human biology, young people are full of hormones and are not always wise when it comes to their sex drive so you end up with young girls pregnant and it big trouble in many societies. The body snatchers want to force the girls to have the baby then take it from them to pass the child out for adoption. Then you have that element who see that pregnancy, loss of their child is punishment for getting their pants off.

In so many societies the girl get ostracised by the society after she has had the child taken from her by force while the guy is excused for doing what come naturally. I don't see that a ruined life for a young girl forced into drugs and prostitution is reasonable either. I don't see that a girl having an abortion is a good choice but the alternative in so many instances is worse.

The other factor is who is in control of a young girl's body, when they are very young its the parents if they are around but once the get old enough I am of the view that they are the only ones who should make decisions about their own body.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 03, 2018, 04:53:31 PM
They approve pedophilia, I mean, if an 8 year old wants to have sex, it is not considered pedophilia, but if they do not want to, then it is characterized as yes. An 8 years old know about that? To me not. On the social level they are making socialism as we know, nothing new, just a new way of doing nothing new. I cry when I see fetuses being discarded as if they were trash

Who is "They", and what does all that have to do with socialism? Any links to such atrocious political activities?

@Hutch: 100% right. I wish we could agree that much on coding issues ;)
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 04, 2018, 05:08:10 AM
Who is "They", and what does all that have to do with socialism? Any links to such atrocious political activities?
Hello sir jj2007;
"They" are French politicians, French parliament (Schiappa), surfing the internet I do not see French people agreeing with what the politicians approved.
Links? Search for law Schiappa, La Republique in Marche, ... .
Some links in french:
https://www.gouvernement.fr/ministre/marlene-schiappa
https://youtu.be/k8lXqqj2cxk
https://youtu.be/IDdgnBOLxAg

Why socialism? For it was the French minister Marlène Schiappa, avowedly feminist, of the party La Republique in Marche, related to the party of Emmanuel Macron, center left.

Today there are several forms of prevention before reaching abortion, male and female condoms, birth control pills, the morning after pill. I am against abortion but in rare cases I am in favor, as in non-consensual sex, in cases of rape and when a woman's life is at risk.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 04, 2018, 05:49:06 AM
You can certainly quote the paragraph of the law Schiappa that is so dangerous?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 04, 2018, 09:08:57 PM
Hello sir jj2007;
You asked for quotes, but quotes mean a subjective context.
We will not see something explicit like "legalize pedophilia" written in law, is something gradual. What I say is happening in practice, judgment of value and not in the norm of the law, legal decree. When they do not fix an "age frame" for sexual matters, they are paving the way for conflicts of jurisprudence.
Can a child of 5 or 8 years of age drive a car? Can you vote? Can you choose for politics? We know that not because the law imposes an age framework, what "no" is the case that happens with libidinous practices. The legislation is entitled to have a minimum age of 15 years (Article 227-25 of the French Criminal Code, atteintesexuelle). What the Schiappa law (law 703/18, 03.08.2018) does is not to establish a minimum age for sexual relations.

In summary I quote the articles, "Article 227-25-", establishes a minimum age of 15 years on sexual assaults.
"Article 222-22-1", again deals with the minimum age, but opens interpretations on difference of significant ages, so that 20 years and 14 years are close ages, hence it must be interpreted in another way, like hash collisions.
When facts are committed on the person of a child under the age of fifteen, moral restraint or surprise is characterized by abuse of the victim's vulnerability, lacking the necessary judgment for such acts.
"Art. 351.-", here they have opened wide gaps for interpretations, for consents. They cite 15 years of age but what is lascivious, not consented, can be answered.

Talking about assembly programming; which quoted instruction is made for addition? Just "add"? We know that no, it can be done with "inc", it can be done with "xor", we can zero the registry and add logically with "or", we can use "lea", .... That is what I am saying, the manual says something but "in practice" we can do it in other ways.

The summary is that the law is not conclusive, it opens spaces for different interpretations. What we do know is that it is happening "in practice".
Well, sorry guys, I'm out, I feel I'm poluting this topic that should talk about economics.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 04, 2018, 10:19:12 PM
Where is the text of the paragraph that allows pedophilia...?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 04, 2018, 11:26:11 PM
Je pense que JJ a oubliè son Français.  :(

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/imr4ag4szs1slyo/loi-schiappa-1.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 05, 2018, 01:05:55 AM
I think the general drift with child abuse is the issue of exploitation, when someone in a position of power over a young person abuses that power, either by force or threat, there is a serious problem. As far as age differences go, an age range tolerance seems to work OK so if the age of consent is 16 and one is 15 and the other 17, there is probably no harm done if both consented to the act. It becomes a problem when you get an underage person being exploited by someone who may be twice their age or older.

The use of power over another is the overriding problem and child protection needs to address the type of leverage that an older predator can exercise over someone who is much younger. What I would like to see is the issue of morality removed from the equation, a child of either gender is not responsible for a predator abusing them and the form of support for victims needs to address that.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 05, 2018, 04:13:29 AM
Where is the text of the paragraph that allows pedophilia...?

Hello sir jj2007,
This is a serious matter sir, I'm not joking. Look for pedophilia in the French penal code. Did not find? So your definitions of pedophilia should be updated. Define pedophilia, define child. If I am 50 years old can I get victimized for suffering pedophilia? Is pedophilia a disease?
We are adults, we have to protect our children.

Did you have trouble reading the laws I mentioned?
An example of what I say, a link from Time magazine
http://time.com/5358798/marlene-schiappa-interview-harassment/
"France has no legal age of consent-an anomaly in Europe ...".
Oh really? But, mineiro said about 15 years old, who is right? Who is doing fake news?
Follow the link of the French penal code:
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/eli/loi/2018/8/3/JUSD1805895L/jo/texte

Chapter II: Attacks on the physical or psychological integrity of the person
Section 3: Sexual Assault
Article 222-22 (again, because persons do not like to read but like to ask).

The counterpart is the first premier of article 222-22 peut être physique or morale.
Lorsque les faits sont commis sur la personne d'un mineur, the contrainte morale mentionnée au premier alinéa du présent article or the surprise mentionnée au premier alinéa de l'article 222-22 peuvent résulter de la extérence d'âge existant between la victime et l'auteur des faits et de l'autorité de droit ou fait which celui-ci exerts sur la victime, cette autorité de fait pouvant être characterized by a significant difference d'âge between the victime mineure et l'auteur majeur.
Lorsque les faits sont commis sur la personne d'une mercher de Quincy Ans, the contrainte morale ou la surprise sont characterisé par l'abus de la vulnérabilité de la victime ne disposant pas du discernement nécessaire pour ces actes.
Is consenting sex a sexual assault? And in case of minors?

Did you read the comments on Schiappa's Twitter profile?
https://twitter.com/MarleneSchiappa/status/1021444701864505344/photo/1
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 05, 2018, 04:53:10 AM
Europe is running crazy, and it is drived by those who are in charge with iron hand. It has cost me enough to find this news from France published in Spanish media. Curious, because it seems more relevant than any foolishness published daily about Donal Trump.

@AW
What they seek is a dominant position to parasitize the rest of people. For this they irrigate with their grace various groups of their convenience, pawns in their strategy.

Although it has finally led to a political debate, my initial pretension was to open a debate on the economy and science that the immediate future holds for us. I imagine that the people who come here are sufficiently prepared to comment on the issue, and I am also interested in the different points of view of different people in different countries.
Title: Fake news
Post by: jj2007 on September 05, 2018, 05:07:55 AM
Where is the text of the paragraph that allows pedophilia...?

You wrote "They approve pedophilia" but so far you have produced only a lot of confusion, and not the faintest evidence of your claim. Besides, Hutch has got it 100% right. Show me one short sentence, taken from a French law, that proves your claim. My French is pretty good, I will understand it.


Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 05, 2018, 05:33:55 AM
@JJ,
You know very well that mineiro does not speak perfect English. Still, most people understood immediately his point because we can easily find the surrogate of the reasoning.
You did too, but you had no idea what he was talking about, because this information is a bit concealed as Caballero well noted.
Instead of confessing your ignorance, which is usual and would cause no surprise, you decided to continue harassing mineiro. Back off JJ, the more you talk the more you get buried.  :(
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: nidud on September 05, 2018, 06:18:32 AM
I will assume these views has something to do with religion but consensual sex is normally not consider to be a crime. This means that two below the minimum age of criminal responsibility cannot be held criminally liable for any offence, so you wont find any of them sitting in jail for having consensual sex.

The law itself is to prevent adults taking advantage of children. This creates a problem where a 14 year old and a 15 year old having legal sex, but the next year one of them may be charged for a criminal offence as an adult. I guess that's is the reasoning behind the law issue in France.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: nidud on September 05, 2018, 07:02:48 AM
Although it has finally led to a political debate, my initial pretension was to open a debate on the economy and science that the immediate future holds for us. I imagine that the people who come here are sufficiently prepared to comment on the issue, and I am also interested in the different points of view of different people in different countries.

As for the economy, a rich country is normally defined by the buying power of the working class in any given state. This leverage is referred to as a market and may be used to dictate terms for corporations and products to enter.

The leverage of a poor country is cheep labour and the corporations will be able to dictates terms to enter the state. The lower the salaries the more leverage a poor country have.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 05, 2018, 09:52:49 AM
hello sir jj2007;
Do you know about figure of speech, metaphorical language, right?
First you asked me why socialists. I answered. Then asked me about who "they" are, I replied. And now asks me about "they approved pedophilia." I answered:
Quote
"We will not see something explicit like "legalize pedophilia" written in law, is something gradual. What I say is happening in practice, judgment of value and not in the norm of the law, legal decree."

About the French language, I have little knowledge, but luckily my mother helps me when I want knowledge, not a problem.

I understand that you are wanting to embarrass me by asking questions, but, Sherlock Holmes, if you wish I can draw and just to be sure, explain the drawing.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 05, 2018, 10:09:44 AM
The law itself is to prevent adults taking advantage of children. This creates a problem where a 14 year old and a 15 year old having legal sex, but the next year one of them may be charged for a criminal offence as an adult. I guess that's is the reasoning behind the law issue in France.
Right :t  It is utter nonsense to claim the new law legalises pedophilia. It is equally nonsense to write that "socialists" want to legalise pedophilia - Macron is a conservative politician. But ultra-conservative media are immune against facts, and hate speech is their raison d'être 8)

Violences sexistes et sexuelles : une loi décriée malgré des avancées (http://www.liberation.fr/france/2018/08/02/violences-sexistes-et-sexuelles-une-loi-decriee-malgre-des-avancees_1670488)
Non, la loi Schiappa n’a pas « légalisé la pédophilie » ni assoupli les règles de consentement (https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2018/08/09/non-la-loi-schiappa-n-a-pas-legalise-la-pedophilie-ni-assoupli-les-regles-de-consentement_5340841_4355770.html)

They approve pedophilia, I mean, if an 8 year old wants to have sex, it is not considered pedophilia, but if they do not want to, then it is characterized as yes. An 8 years old know about that? To me not. On the social level they are making socialism as we know, nothing new, just a new way of doing nothing new. I cry when I see fetuses being discarded as if they were trash, it seems like I'm alone. This is happening in USA and a lot of Europeans countries, South America too.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: felipe on September 05, 2018, 10:26:50 AM
most people understood immediately his point

Probably i'm in the minority group here too. I admit i'm not well versed in all this "news", but i tend to support well arguments, so i think jj here knows better what he is saying... :idea:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 05, 2018, 03:02:01 PM
France has traditionally been very tolerant on these sex with children affairs. No official age of consent ever existed.
This Schiappa law came to establish an official age of consent of 15 years. This is for sex between adults and children not for sex between children.
In all the civilized World, a 15-year old being is still a child - so it makes sense to talk about a law that legalizes pedophilia.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 05, 2018, 03:15:56 PM
@nidud  :biggrin:

The Norway welfare state has been financed by oil - socialism works great when there are no financial constraints.
Were resources scarce, the nice "way of life" models Norway export to the World would not feasible.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 05, 2018, 08:59:54 PM
The Sarah Case:
April 24, 2017; Montmagny Square, a 28-year-old man had sex with an 11-year-old girl. The case was judged as an indecent assault (Faced with the lack of violence and the victim's consent) and not for rape (pedophilia). (jurisprudence conflict- Pontoise court)). Currently French case law only considers under-5s automatically victims of rape.
Due to recent recurring cases they have decided to elaborate laws to remove ambiguity over the word consent, impose a more severe, rigid penalty and high costs. And here we come to the Shiappa law. Lawyers failed to prove that the girls did not give consent.

What has changed with the Shiappa law? Increased penalties and money to be paid. But, the question is: does it still happen in practice? Have they removed the ambiguity of the word consent? In its final version, the Schiapa law states that for children under the age of 15, "moral restraint or surprise is characterized by abuse of the vulnerability of the victim who lacks the necessary judgment for these acts." However, "vulnerability" and "surprise" leaves room for pedophiles to escape punishment before the law.

In summary, the new law does not define a legal age of consent despite the fact that there is already a legal age for penalties, which means that adults who have sex with children will not be arrested for rape if the victim can not prove the existence of violence, threat or rape.

And now I say, have they closed the door to pedophilia? What I see is the state making more money and punishing more time in jail, but not solving the real problem, which in theory was the intent of the Schiappa law. A new way of do nothing new.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 06, 2018, 12:15:55 AM
In its final version, the Schiapa law states that for children under the age of 15, "moral restraint or surprise is characterized by abuse of the vulnerability of the victim who lacks the necessary judgment for these acts." However, "vulnerability" and "surprise" leaves room for pedophiles to escape punishment before the law.

In summary, the new law does not define a legal age of consent despite the fact that there is already a legal age for penalties, which means that adults who have sex with children will not be arrested for rape if the victim can not prove the existence of violence, threat or rape.

I see you are peddling back a little from your initial "the socialists want pedophilia to be legal". Good. What about this:

Quote
Schiappa had announced that an age of sexual consent for minors would be set, as in other European countries. A principle finally abandoned in the face of a risk of unconstitutionality. Instead, the bill provides that the moral constraint or the surprise (notions allowing to characterize a rape) are defined by an "abuse of vulnerability of the victim not having the necessary discernment for these acts".

The "socialists" (remember Macron is a conservative...) have introduced a law that improves the rights and protection of kids. Which doesn't stop certain media to declare the contrary. It's called "fake news" or "alternative facts".
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: nidud on September 06, 2018, 12:50:48 AM
@nidud  :biggrin:

The Norway welfare state has been financed by oil -

No. The revenue from the oil industry can't be used for welfare or investment inside the state given this will create hyper inflation and crash the economy.

The welfare cost in Norway is financed the same way as in Denmark, Sweden and Finland but it's a very small part of the budget, less than foreign aid, so it doesn't play a significant role in the overall economy.

Quote
socialism works great when there are no financial constraints.

A contradiction in terms but okay.

Quote
Were resources scarce, the nice "way of life" models Norway export to the World would not feasible.  :biggrin:

Is this really happening?

Maybe you should pick another country then where resources are scarce with a nice way of life and use that as a model instead?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 06, 2018, 01:37:57 AM
 :biggrin:

There are many other things that effect a country's economy, multi-nationals ripping the guts out of the country by buying out the politicians, then some countries get PHUKED over by the World Bank or the IMF so they can be asset stripped and turned into a charity case noting how cold charity is these days. If they don't conform they get invaded for their resources and who cares (by the invaders) about the loss of life and lifestyle of the survivors.

Without the international parasites, most countries can afford to feed their own and distribute the national wealth in an equitable manner but this will be fought to the end by such interests as those who want to keep raping other countries economies. The Chinese have the solution, they invest in other countries, build their infrastructure for them and they both profit from the venture. The IMF and World bank are going through lean times at the moment and lets hope they end up flat on their arse and broke.  :P
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 06, 2018, 03:25:05 AM
Quote
The revenue from the oil industry can't be used for welfare or investment inside the state
Looks like a convoluted way of explaining the reality - but I have nothing against the reality.  :t
It is legitimate and acceptable. Eventually more than the financial and tax evasion schemes against other countries that Switzerland, Luxembourg and Ireland use.
One thing is certain, there is always an explanation for richness!
We have an intelligent proverb which has no translation or equivalent in English (AFAIK):
"Quem cabritos vende e cabras não tem de algum lado lhe vêm"
It translates more or less like this:
Who sells kids and goats do not have from some side they come to him
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 06, 2018, 05:12:09 AM
To distribute wealth is necessary to generate it first. I think this is doing very well China, where the middle class is growing enormously.

Taxes are largely for the middle class. In any case, taxes make a transfer of wealth from productive to less productive people. If you do not establish a scale you will get productive people to fall into non-productive ones, which will end up eroding the productive abb.

@nidud
Quote
If something works, do not change it
If socialism or communism works in Norway, you'd better not to change it. One can attribute success to oil, but it is not all. Look at the case of Venezuela, rich in oil and with millions of people leaving the country. Their prime minister blocks their bank accounts to these people, which reminds me somewhat of the Berlin Wall. Who can want to leave paradise?. 99 red baloons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2zxHuze_Gw)

I guess it's hard to talk about economics without talking about politics. But I wanted to talk about the economy and the technology that comes. In my first post I talked about it. It seems that the economy is contracting and technology is getting to revolutionize the way we understood the economy until now. For example, Amazon seems to be eating retail in the USA. It is going to bet on cars without driver or even to share it with strangers, which will cause lower sales. Who will need taxi drivers? Some countries are betting on AI, devoting a large economic capital for research. AI that will make much human labor unnecessary, on the contrary, it will also need skilled labor for its maintenance, I suppose.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: nidud on September 06, 2018, 06:15:08 AM
Quote
The revenue from the oil industry can't be used for welfare or investment inside the state
Looks like a convoluted way of explaining the reality - but I have nothing against the reality.  :t
It is legitimate and acceptable. Eventually more than the financial and tax evasion schemes against other countries that Switzerland, Luxembourg and Ireland use.
One thing is certain, there is always an explanation for richness!
We have an intelligent proverb which has no translation or equivalent in English (AFAIK):
"Quem cabritos vende e cabras não tem de algum lado lhe vêm"
It translates more or less like this:
Who sells kids and goats do not have from some side they come to him

I don't understand anything of that but selling kids and other perverted sexual fantasies seems to pop up here for some reason.

Quote
If something works, do not change it
If socialism or communism works in Norway,

Well, we haven't really tried out socialism or communism yet so I cant say how that will work in Norway.

Quote
you'd better not to change it.

The current government is a coalition of liberals, conservatives, evangelicals, and the Tea-Party but I'm not really in charge of these things so there you go.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: HSE on September 06, 2018, 06:30:22 AM

I don't understand anything of that but selling kids and other perverted sexual

A kid is a goat's son (a little goat).
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: nidud on September 06, 2018, 07:42:08 AM
I guess it's hard to talk about economics without talking about politics.

No kidding.

Quote
For example, Amazon seems to be eating retail in the USA.

High paying jobs replaced with low paying jobs. So who has the leverage after this transaction?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7CJpUO-cqE

Quote
It is going to bet on cars without driver or even to share it with strangers, which will cause lower sales.

You think lower salaries may also be a factor in lower sales?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 06, 2018, 08:24:32 AM
I see you are peddling back a little from your initial "the socialists want pedophilia to be legal". Good. What about this:
Sorry, but you're misrepresenting my comment, I did not say that, you're trying to being persuasive. I said that the Schiappa law was drafted by the Socialists.

Quote
The "socialists" (remember Macron is a conservative...) have introduced a law that improves the rights and protection of kids. Which doesn't stop certain media to declare the contrary. It's called "fake news" or "alternative facts".
Another conflict of opinion. Emanuel Macron was minister of the economy in a socialist government, began his race affiliate to the socialist party and only after founded his own party coalition, En March! . If you say that he is conservative because he is liberal in the economy then we have a clash. Better call him a centrist. Hence, either we are wrong or someone is right.

For me, fake news. There is a minimum age, 5 years old. There is a legal penalty age, 15 years; but there is no minimum (if you forgive 5 years and 15 years) age for sexual abuse (if I speak pedophilia you will question). If seen as alternative facts is due to the breach in the law that has not been remedied.

Nothing personal sir, just an discussion, nothing more than this.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 06, 2018, 06:43:33 PM
Quote
I don't understand anything of that but selling kids and other perverted sexual fantasies seems to pop up here for some reason.

quoting some expert on the subject:  :biggrin:
All goats under 6 months of age are called kids. Female goats over the age of 6 months are generally called doelings.
Our version of "kid" derives from the German "kinder" for child. Back in the day, calling a child a "kid" was considered vulgar! But, as time passed, the stigma passed.
You can always tell a child "I’m calling you a kid because you’re acting like a baby goat."


(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ra3d0j73l91gray/babies.gif?dl=1)
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 07, 2018, 04:26:54 AM
Nice video, aw, mi little kid has laughed a lot with it :greenclp:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 07, 2018, 04:29:43 AM
Podemos is the Spanish Syriza: communists, Marxists, Trotskyists and almost all ists.
 
One of the reference economists of Podemos said in a debate that he does not understand why people have to make an effort working and saving money, as long as the state is in charge of providing them with everything they need. What he did not say is where the state would get the resources in case no one work hard and save. But it is an opinion very consistent with its political ideal: the state is everything and provides everything, a communist system.

The left, in general, always says that the crisis is not because of excess spending but because of lack of income. There must be more currency in circulation. As a result, they tend always to increase taxes, increasing spending, achieving a higher level of income. But on what do they spend that money? Nobody knows, dust and straw. If at least they had a strategic investment plan in research it could make a lot of sense, the paradigm could be China that has gone from a small economy to one of the strongest in the world thanks to work and investments plans and research.

For example: They have paid 52,000 euros for a gender impact report in burying an urban highway (https://elpais.com/ccaa/2018/01/10/madrid/1515616362_667521.html). One might think that an urban work is a neutral gender. Well no, I was very wrong. This could be funny, but it really has more foundation than it seems at a first glance:
  - In the first place, this outdated social and economic policy tends to give a bit of unfeeling, therefore, joinning a fashionable trend such as feminism gives them a kinder feel. It's marketing. Because we all want to be modern, even if it's crap. What we are not willing is to look like an old fashioned guy.
  - In the second place, several cronies are designated as the maximum responsible for the new organism and they are endowed with a good salary. We already have more people working and of my maximum confidence.
  - Third, the price of things increases, more cost, in line with their ideological line.



Imagine that you have a car that you do not use many times and that you want to take advantage of. Therefore, you publish on a website where it is for those who want to use it in exchange for money. This is already happening and is increasingly demanded. What will happen then with car rental companies like AVIS, HERTZ, etc? What will happen to the taxi drivers?

If it is foreseen that the car construcures begin to soon commercialize cars without driver. Who will need the taxi drivers?

Regardless of what I want, this is happening and increasing as time goes by, in conjunction with the internet. Many other examples such as Amazon regarding retail, also in conjunction with the internet.

The question is: What can be done to minimize the impact on unemployment? As I see it, taxi drivers, for example, should lower their prices if they want to compete, because no one is obliged to take a taxi, besides car sharing is fashionable, it is more youthful.

The advantage of Amazon is that without taking the trouble to leave home, you can find any product, from a shoe to a book or even edible and you take it to the door of your house in record time and with very competitive prices. How can small business compete with this? In my opinion they would have to join, I speak of shoemakers, booksellers, butchers, etc on a website to offer a wide variety of products and compete with Amazon, and lower prices. Having something that Amazon does not have: personalized treatment.

All these examples have a common denominator: lower prices. How can this be done if the costs are increasing? The government raises its prices noticeably every year, then forces higher costs. If you raise taxes for your place, you will have to increase the prices. On the other hand we have a large external debt to pay, which forces us to maintain high tax burdens on people only to pay it: higher costs.

It's not that I want this, it's what the experts say is happening and it's going to happen with more force, it's the incremental line to the immediate future. The question is what to do to minimize the impact. Because it turns out that fewer and fewer people buy in retails because it is more comfortable and cheap to do it in Amazon, although ultimately it ends up hurting me in the future.

This is the analysis of the experts. But I say: sovereign debt is overinflated in Europe, USA, Japan, and lately also in China and India. It is more than likely that by some avatar of destiny some of these countries are in default and can not pay their debt. This would probably imply a domino effect on the other countries with great debt, curiously the most economically strong in the world. What would cause a "reset" in the global economic plane, of which nobody knows how it would come out. Then all the forecasts of the experts would go to the wastebasket and we would start again.

A generalized idea that strikes me is the desire to increase the salary, without another objective. Why would I prefer earning 5,000 € / month if my expenses amount to 4,950 € / month? I would prefer to charge € 1,000 / month with expenses of € 500 / month, and this way I would be more competitive, I could sell more and my income could be increasing. If we add to this a cost containment policy, it could soon reach, say, € 2,000 / month with expenses of € 700 / month.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 07, 2018, 05:35:17 AM
Quote
the state is everything and provides everything, a communist system
Communists and other Marx/Trotsky variations are moved by dogmas. They never adjust they never learn.
In this sense they are exactly the same as the Catholic Church (but without the pedophilia  :badgrin:).
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 07, 2018, 05:55:33 AM
Communists and other Marx/Trotsky variations are moved by dogmas. They never adjust they never learn.

As demonstrated in China :t
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 07, 2018, 06:04:12 AM
Communists and other Marx/Trotsky variations are moved by dogmas. They never adjust they never learn.

As demonstrated in China :t

Chineses are not communists, they use that tag fool people like you. There are 104 billionaires in China.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 07, 2018, 09:00:10 AM
Hello sir AW, first, thank you for showing me the insinuations on previous topics, and you're right, my knowledge of the English language is vile. Well, I will disagree with a comment from you, I try to be as honest and impersonal as possible.

Chinese China is communist, they just opened the economy. The state continues to control everything. A modern version of communism; that's why they buy everything they see ahead. An example of control is that in China are prohibited google, youtube, facebook, twitter, wikipedia, linkedin, dropbox, NYT, .... Communism is a more radical version of socialism, an example are artificial islands that ignore the sovereignty of other countries.

The failure of socialism / communism / Nazism / fascism is the same, money. Who is against capitalism does not know that other ideologies are made of money. The exploitation of citizens and workers by having to pay more taxes with the artificiality of the common good. Both systems exploit both resources and people.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 07, 2018, 10:19:06 AM
Communists and other Marx/Trotsky variations are moved by dogmas. They never adjust they never learn.

As demonstrated in China :t

Chineses are not communists, they use that tag fool people like you. There are 104 billionaires in China.

They are communists, but they adjust and learn - from the ideologically fake form of the economy that we call "capitalism".
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 07, 2018, 01:56:45 PM
@mineiro
Quote
China is communist, they just opened the economy. The state continues to control everything. A modern version of communism; that's why they buy everything they see ahead. An example of control is that in China are prohibited google, youtube, facebook, twitter, wikipedia, linkedin, dropbox, NYT,
State controlling and prohibiting does not mean communism. They are indeed doing a peaceful transition to capitalism - it is obvious, everyday more capitalism and less communism. Chinese people does not want that communism crap - they are businessmen by heart (have you ever seen those millions of 1 dollar shops that appear everywhere like mushrooms?). The chinese leaders are slowly relinquishing to keep their arses safe. The same will happen with North Korea, Cuba and Venezuela. Who can be happy in these countries?

@JJ
Quote
They are communists, but they adjust and learn - from the ideologically fake form of the economy that we call "capitalism".
Ahah, they have giant private companies like Alibaba to show that they are indeed communists!  :t
Open your eyes, all countries move away from socialism/communism to the decadent capitalism - some move faster, other slower. This is the trend.
No country ever moved from capitalism to communist except through a bloody revolution - communism is so anti-natural   :dazzled:. They can wash your brains saying it is natural, it is not  :icon_eek:!
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 07, 2018, 03:33:36 PM
China is a hard one to put a handle on apart from "Chinese". Their revolution was country population based in the days of Chairman Mao where Russia was effectively city based, China has a centralised one party government but a reasonably diverse economy that has not only state run enterprises but many privately owned ones as well. An overriding consideration in China is political stability as they have a long history of invasions, dynasty changes, occupation by foreigners until Mao's time and contrary to western propaganda, stability is more important to them than a phony idea of western democracy that is little better than a front for a corporate sector.

Track record says it all, while the west in endlessly imposing austerity, cost cutting and a draconian police state on its own people, China has pulled something like 40% of its population out of poverty, has produced a massive economy, built massive infrastructure in its own country as well as others and has a big enough military to discourage anyone from trying to attack them.

What's in a name, China is not communist, its China.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 07, 2018, 10:16:37 PM
China is led by the Chinese Communist Party ,the only one that has ruled China since 1949, with a more or less heterodox Marxist / Leninist bias, from Confucius to the economic market. Multi-partyism is only a facade.
The state companies were not abandoned. Representatives of the parties keep their relatives in state boards (King of Telecommunications).
The Chinese party controls all lands (the party rents land to the Chinese people), the high command of the economy (many businessmen are party members), beliefs, grouping of people (party dissidents are persecuted), birth control, internet and public opinion. Do Chinese people have a right to private property? No, and this is the crux of capitalism. Assumed corruption is treated with death (particulary I like this) instead of jail.
And finally, Xi Jinping approved a constitutional amendment that could remain in power indefinitely. This generated popular reaction in Chinese social networks, but as they control the internet the messages were deleted hours later.

What has changed are gray suits for black suits.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 07, 2018, 10:41:17 PM
Do Chinese people have a right to private property? No
There are 104 billionaires in China.

Maybe you two could try to reach a consensus via PMs?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 07, 2018, 11:27:33 PM
Quote
Representatives of the parties keep their relatives in state boards
This is what happen in western countries as well, it is called "jobs for the boys and their families".

Quote
Do Chinese people have a right to private property?
You mean land and other real estate? Yes, even more right than in the western countries.
They receive a leasehold for 70 years, renewed after that (this is what is expected to happen, probably no 70 year leasehold expired yet).
What happens in western countries? In western countries, they say that you "own" the land but you have to pay every year from 2 to 4 percent of its value in property taxes! So after 70 years you paid more than twice what you initially paid for it! So, you don't really own the land, you have to keep paying for it year after year or the government will confiscate it.  :(
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 08, 2018, 12:03:27 AM
mineiro,

We will differ over this, a casual grasp of the Russian Revolution gives you a good idea of the Marxist / Leninist ideology, where it gained its support and how it was executed. Compare this with Mao's long march around much of the country where his support was primarily rural and where the country was at wars with Japan and you will understand its origins. Rebuilding China after WW2 was a massive task that the nationalists failed to perform but under Mao, the whole country was mobilised and over a long period succeeded in getting China up and going again.

It is a mistake to try and evaluate China through a western view, it was a civilisation before most others existed but over thousands of years it suffered from wars, warlords, massacres, invasions and the like and the sense of cooperation as a society is very strong in China.

> The Chinese party controls all lands

What's new, so do most other countries including the major western ones. If they want "your" land they just take it and you probably won't get paid for it.

> Multi-partyism is only a facade

No, it just does not exist, it is a one party state.

> the high command of the economy (many businessmen are party members)

Just like most other countries, especially the western ones.

> And finally, Xi Jinping approved a constitutional amendment that could remain in power indefinitely.

Yes, its a method of countering foreign influence with orange revolutions funded by foreign countries. Putin is very similar and for the same reason.

If you look at the structure of government in China, its not Marxist / Leninist, its Chinese and based off its very long history.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 08, 2018, 03:59:09 AM
What happens in western countries? In western countries, they say that you "own" the land but you have to pay every year from 2 to 4 percent of its value in property taxes! So after 70 years you paid more than twice what you initially paid for it! So, you don't really own the land, you have to keep paying for it year after year or the government will confiscate it.  :(

Yes :biggrin: that's right, it's a way of slavery. That's reminds me a sketch of Asterix and Obelix (https://youtu.be/CNgxRJQIET8), in Spanish, but it is very funny.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: felipe on September 08, 2018, 09:06:51 AM
communism is so anti-natural   :dazzled:. They can wash your brains saying it is natural, it is not  :icon_eek:!

HAHAHAHA, now tell me, you man, what is natural?  :idea:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 08, 2018, 03:54:05 PM
Quote
That's reminds me a sketch of Asterix and Obelix, in Spanish, but it is very funny
The Mansion of the Gods  :biggrin:

Quote
HAHAHAHA, now tell me, you man, what is natural
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8tr19qzf8rymmbr/newman.jpg?dl=1)
After rebuilding it becomes natural, people that previously though it was not natural were expurgated.
Check what happened in Russia, China and more recently North Korea.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 08, 2018, 05:40:10 PM
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8tr19qzf8rymmbr/newman.jpg?dl=1)
@aw: "to build the new man and woman" clearly means re-education in this context (and Cuba is a very successful example for the role of education in a poor country). But Che Guevara didn't invent that concept; "re-education" was a buzz-word after WWII, see e.g. Exorcising Hitler: The Occupation and Denazification of Germany (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/apr/24/exorcising-hitler-germany-frederick-taylor)
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 08, 2018, 06:18:04 PM
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8tr19qzf8rymmbr/newman.jpg?dl=1)
@aw: "to build the new man and woman" clearly means re-education in this context (and Cuba is a very successful example for the role of education in a poor country). But Che Guevara didn't invent that concept; "re-education" was a buzz-word after WWII, see e.g. Exorcising Hitler: The Occupation and Denazification of Germany (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/apr/24/exorcising-hitler-germany-frederick-taylor)
I know about reeducation camps. It is a common practice under communist regimes.
Sure they are also common under fascist regimes, which use similar strategies, as you probably heard about because it was born in your country.

I am not talking about formal education, but reeducation programs. I know Cuba is known for exporting low-cost doctors all over the 3rd World. But is still a crappy communist country with an average salary under $50.00. From time to time I receive requests from cubans asking me to simply a free software license (it costs much more than 1 month salary for them). The reason is not the embargo which is fictitious and used as an excuse - the reason is the regime.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 08, 2018, 09:47:50 PM
I know about reeducation camps. It is a common practice under communist regimes.
Sure they are also common under fascist regimes, ...

In the particular case of the German population, it was the U.S. regime.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 08, 2018, 10:51:52 PM
Former East German territory is still very nazi these days. At the time, communists knew no reeducation was needed. A good nazi always makes a good communist out of the box.  :t
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 08, 2018, 11:02:15 PM
I have always had this chuckle about neo nazis. The rise and fall of the third Reich was based on circumstances that occurred in history and would be near impossible to emulate. Neo nazis are a bunch of dumb phuk skinheads jerking off about their delusional power when under the third Reich they would have been terminated as degenerates.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: felipe on September 08, 2018, 11:29:09 PM
I see you have your "own" dictionary to a lot of words. But i will give you a point on that, actually who wants to discuss this kind of things through posting in a forum.  :icon_exclaim:

What is natural anyway? Maybe you can think about that a little bit... :eusa_snooty:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 09, 2018, 12:02:03 AM
Was this from my comment ?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: felipe on September 09, 2018, 12:13:24 AM
 :biggrin: No, sorry i didn't wanted to quote to aw, but i guess it brought confusion. I didn't because just quoting around (at least always) sometimes produce just nonsense and no arguments.

@jj: Do you mean because of Treaty of Versailles? Or to the enrichment process of the U.S after WWI? Or similar or none of this one? Please explain a little bit more your last reply. Thanks.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 09, 2018, 12:32:10 AM
@jj: Do you mean ...

I meant to tease José a little bit, that's all. But googling for re-education world war II can be an interesting exercise indeed ;-)
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 09, 2018, 01:16:12 AM
Natural, anti-natural and contranatura words usually cause reaction when used in connection with sex.  :icon_rolleyes:

But in connection with communism, after Che's declaration and my stressing of the words rebuilding and reeducation why are you still so confused? May be you want to read the whole article:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1965/03/man-socialism.htm and say something more than AHAHA and use of emoticons - this is not Instagram!

@JJ just moves around like a headless chicken.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 09, 2018, 02:10:42 AM
Change over time in terms of circumstances accounts for many political flavours of their time. Think of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia where the bulk of the population were in the state of serfdom and you will understand how and why the early Soviet developed. One event that was truly impressive in its time was the road from Burma to north western China after the Japanese cut off any supply routes from the coast. A massive number of people worked to build the "impossible road" in an impossibly short time.

Dire circumstances produce unusual systems, look at German after WW1 with reparation, hyperinflation, the great depression where money was pulled out of Germany and left the population in starvation. In such dire circumstances Hitler arose as the saviour of Germany and while we all know how that ended up, he did drag Germany out of economic depression by 1936.

Duplicating the past in any meaningful way is generally not possible as the circumstances that generated the past simply do not exist. The examples were for a reason, communism as a viable system never existed but a number of experiments were tried by different countries, almost all of which failed as the system was vulnerable to exploitation by a ruling class and failure at an economic level. Romania bumped off Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife for exploiting the population among many other indiscretions which was typical of the so called communist countries.

Many of the convenient handles for political systems are subject to abuse, once democracy meant government by and for the people, now its a dirty word as it is the vehicle for an elite ruling class smashing countries around the world.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: felipe on September 09, 2018, 02:29:27 AM
I agree with you hutch  :icon14:. The point is aw, that we have nature: trees, the sun, etc, etc. But as humans, if you state that we are different than nature, you mainly have 2 roads: 1) Than we are some kind of spiritual entity or a similar religious approach or 2) Than we are some artificial entity, wich brings the issue that in some point we had a creator ("in our evoltion history").

So, antinatural, in this context, is like cheap propaganda (and actually with some religious flavor).
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 09, 2018, 02:37:36 AM
Duplicating the past in any meaningful way is generally not possible as the circumstances that generated the past simply do not exist.

Hey, you are challenging the "we must learn from history" mantra! There are instances where that works, but I agree that the mantra is seriously flawed especially in times where globalisation and technological change (smartphones, AI, ...) change the basics of society. And thus their basic mechanisms.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 09, 2018, 04:41:50 AM
that we have nature: trees, the sun, etc, etc. But as humans, if you state that we are different than nature, you mainly have 2 roads: 1) Than we are some kind of spiritual entity or a similar religious approach or 2) Than we are some artificial entity, wich brings the issue that in some point we had a creator ("in our evoltion history").

So, antinatural, in this context, is like cheap propaganda (and actually with some religious flavor).
Nothing to do with that.

We can train a cat to become friend of a mouse but this is not their real nature.

Humans are competitive by nature but they can be trained/reeducated to follow Marx slogan "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.".

This is opposed to the humans nature or anti-natural. It will ever work unless they start building humans like Dolly sheeps or make a brain implant.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: felipe on September 09, 2018, 07:27:03 AM
We can train a cat to become friend of a mouse but this is not their real nature.

This is where i think you are wrong. Is like all being blasted by an asteroid, you may have your perfect life in a moment, but this disaster it will be a natural thing. Even if we say hello to aliens some day, that will be a natural thing...

The thing is that nature is not inherently good or bad...It's just nature! We can talk about that some humans actions are wrong and that's ok, we need laws, etc. But that doesn't mean that we are above nature or similar...

But in the religious way, this concept...you should already know...just google for galileo... :eusa_snooty:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 09, 2018, 08:37:31 AM
Quote
This is where i think you are wrong. Is like all being blasted by an asteroid, you may have your perfect life in a moment, but this disaster it will be a natural thing. Even if we say hello to aliens some day, that will be a natural thing...
I understand your point of view: "The unusual seems unnatural until it settles with the stomach"

If a scientist decides to produce humans with 2 heads, why not? It will become natural shortly after.

You believe that everything must be allowed, no boundaries, the life is only one. But fortunately, in my opinion, most people do not pursue that line of thought.

One consequence is that the "New Communist Man" has never been produced with success so far and is unlikely it will ever be. So humans will continue to follow their human natural instincts as always have done since the beginning of the times, discounting some abnormal cases. Cats will continue to hate mice as well, except in some laboratory experiments.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: felipe on September 09, 2018, 10:04:31 AM
Although i don't want to argue with you for too long, i can see that you have actually some mystic with the word nature. I was saying humans can be good or bad, i can continue saying humans must behave themselves (even using laws),etc, etc. But the mystic view of nature seems to like to put good or bad in nature. Of course there are a contradiction with the neutral concept of nature, because humans (part of the nature) can be good or bad...Indeed is an interesting issue... :idea:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 09, 2018, 10:08:38 AM
jj, I'm now close, you do not waste time huh! Symbolically I am doing the Italian symbol with my hands :).

AW, my land that I conquered with my sweat, paying more than 30 years to get it, will it be for the government or for my children? If it's okay with my kids, if it's for the government that characterizes what?

Hutch, I understood the reason for major invasions coming to the construction of a great wall. I understand that you are telling me that Marxism ended in the era of Mao Tse Tung. But really? What characterizes a communist system? The leader in power forever means dictatorial, and this represents what? It represents communism in the context that we talk about. This is happening in Russia, 4 times in a row Mr. Vladimir Putin. In China, perpetual power. In Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.
Mao took iron from the peasants' tools to turn into weapons, hoes, shovels. The consequence is that the peasants who were not able to plant effectively died of starvation. A good book is "The Black Book of Communism." A bloody book, only for those who have stomach.

For me you guys are being deceived, you have no more power of discernment, only of acceptance!. That's why I'm not political correct.

It is from these arguments that I disagree with you sirs, taking away other evidence. You are seeing only capitalist power.

Re-education? Gulags?

Well, I'm agains all of you guys :D.

Philip :) , search for the beginning of philosophy. Earth, fire, water and air. Then came Socrates and said that the answer may be within us.

The new age, a dictatorial capitalism (aka communism).
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 09, 2018, 01:34:50 PM
mineiro,

What we differ on is the idea that a single leader by whatever means is communist. Hitler was a single leader, Franco was a single leader as was Mussolini yet they were the anti-thesis of theoretical communism. Ante Pavelic was head of the Ustasha with dictatorial powers but he was rolled by a communist, Tito. Before we point all of the evils of the world at the communists, lets look at the alternative, what is currently being sold as capitalism.

The term derives from another theoretical idea, lasseiz faire, butchers, bakers and candle stick makers (along with many other trades) competing with each other to sell goods at the most competitive price but it never happened in practice. Feudalism, monarchies and the rise of industrialisation that could afford to buy governments all functioned as a distortion of the idea of free market competition.

With many other variations, failed capitalism versus failed communism. Since WW2 the "goody goody gum drop" team exterminated some massive number of people in the Korean war followed up by yet another massacre of people in Vietnam then there was Iraq 1, Somalia, Iraq 2, Libya and most recently Syria so it is fair to say that both sides of the capitalist / communist distinction have blood on their hands and dirty money in their pockets.

There is yet another unhappy comparison, the old Soviet had the gulags in Siberia where prisoners were worked to death, the US has it equivalent in jails that are the same thing, slave labour of people who are black, poor, hispanic or any other group that can be framed for some crappy charges and sent into slavery. Most western countries have a similar version to the US system.

Much of the third world know the effects of phony capitalism after being phuked over by the World bank and IMF putting them into debt bondage, austerity, cutbacks, reductions in pensions and the like so they could rip the guts out of their countries and asset strip their property.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 09, 2018, 04:13:55 PM
@filipe,
I can't see from where you concluded about my mystic view of nature. And where do I consider nature good or bad. And where I look at it in a religious way. I have also looked into my papers and can't find any Power of Attorney endorsing to third-parties the right to decide what I think about this matter.
Do you even read the responses or simply shoot the balls back blindfold?
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: jj2007 on September 09, 2018, 06:24:01 PM
... capitalism.

The term derives from another theoretical idea, lasseiz faire, butchers, bakers and candle stick makers (along with many other trades) competing with each other to sell goods at the most competitive price but it never happened in practice.

I agree with most of your post. We have Chinese shops all over the place, they sell hi-tech at unbelievable prices. Capitalism works, that's why most people don't notice how distorted it is, and how far from its original ideas. Especially the need to compensate external effects is bread & butter of capitalistic theory but gets ignored in practice. And then came the Internet, and economic theory and practice faced another challenge. M$, Fakebook, Goggle, Ahmyson are de facto monopolists that (so says the theory) must be regulated. They aren't, of course - our democratically elected governments do not have enough power to do that.

Quote
Much of the third world know the effects of phony capitalism after being phuked over by the World bank and IMF

The story is a bit more complex. WB & IMF are the regulated, state-controlled parts of The Financial Economy, and their record is mixed. Point is that you must do lots of things wrong to end up in a situation where you need their help. Africa is suffering from a rotten elite (and their friends in the U.S., Russia, China and the EU) that thrives on "development aid" and does not hesitate to launch a little civil war to rob their competitors. Since you cannot force anybody to invest money in Africa, you end up with investors who are courageous enough to accept the risk of losing all their money, but of course they want 50% interest. This is what makes Africa poor: They pay a high price for THE RISK. Switzerland gives you less than 1% interest, guess why...
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 09, 2018, 06:33:48 PM
I wonder what "austerity" means. On one occasion a person that I know well told me that while he was studying at the university and did not have much money, had to remove many things from his usual purchase that he would have liked. On one occasion he gave money to a boy who asked for charity. Then, this boy ran to buy the ice cream that he himself had wanted for so long; it seems that the ice cream was not at the boy's taste and he threw it into the trash bin shortly after starting it. A good lesson.

I would like to be entitled to many things, unfortunately I do not have money for all of them. And not only to me, and not only in this era, but throughout the ages. Suddenly we all have the right to everything. What happens in a society is that, whoever is in charge, is usually prone to arrogate to himself rights for which there is no budget, decisions that drag the rest of society and that ultimately cause greater poverty.

When Syriza arrived at the government of Greece, he declared the Greek debt as infamous, unjust and unwanted. Then he asked for more money from Europe, which I suppose would also be infamous, unfair and unwanted. But both were worn. This money does not fall from the clouds, but from the pocket of the rest of European taxpayers who, I suppose, will want to see their money returned, many people do not have too much money.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 09, 2018, 09:01:59 PM
I would like to apologize for the 2 comments I made on my last post.

"For me you guys are being deceived, you have no more power of discernment, only of acceptance!. That's why I'm not political correct."
"Re-education? Gulags?"

Sincerely sorry.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 09, 2018, 09:12:39 PM
It is necessary to be brave to defend ideas contrary to the status quo, so I sincerely appreciate you, mineiro  :t
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 09, 2018, 09:37:19 PM
Quote
AW, my land that I conquered with my sweat, paying more than 30 years to get it, will it be for the government or for my children? If it's okay with my kids, if it's for the government that characterizes what?
I did not said that, completely different.
I know your English does not allow you to understand much of what is said and, even worse, you have no conscience of that.

 
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 09, 2018, 11:48:25 PM
 :biggrin:

> I wonder what "austerity" means.

That's really simple in most western societies, cutback heading to zero on government spending, increased taxes on those left working, increasing unemployment with no assistance in either providing jobs or feeding them while they are looking and it all goes one place, tax cuts for foreign corporations. Put aside the bullsh*t about how supporting big business creates jobs, usually over 90% of the tax cuts go out as extra profit.

Government funded by the people on behalf of the foreign corporations serve only one purpose and that is to keep the population under control while the foreign corporations get corporate welfare paid for by the people.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: felipe on September 10, 2018, 02:02:10 AM
@filipe,
I can't see from where you concluded about my mystic view of nature. And where do I consider nature good or bad. And where I look at it in a religious way.

It's very simple:

- communism is so anti-natural   :dazzled:. They can wash your brains saying it is natural, it is not  :icon_eek:!

Then i asked what is natural then...

But there wasn't a concrete answer to that so i gave you my point of view about nature...Then you:

We can train a cat to become friend of a mouse but this is not their real nature.

...Stated here what is real nature for you...Which for me looks like some kind of perpetual concept of nature (pretty much the same as the perpetual concept of some religions...)
So i told you a little more about what i think is nature, that is, nature is not to satisfy yourself necessarily, not to cats or mouses. They essentially doesn't have some fixed nature because nature is bigger than both...

Then you said:

If a scientist decides to produce humans with 2 heads, why not? It will become natural shortly after.

You believe that everything must be allowed, no boundaries, the life is only one. But fortunately, in my opinion, most people do not pursue that line of thought.

One consequence is that the "New Communist Man" has never been produced with success so far and is unlikely it will ever be. So humans will continue to follow their human natural instincts as always have done since the beginning of the times, discounting some abnormal cases. Cats will continue to hate mice as well, except in some laboratory experiments.

Wich to me is a some kind of jump from the fixed nature concept to some kind of mystic concept, because you started to tell me what i consider wrong or not, because the why "new communist..." has never been, is essentially, because is not natural...

So thinking that nature is a fixed thing, that it can be good or bad, and finally that nature is not going likely to change (because hasn't changed) is pretty much the same concept of a bunch of mytics views (thus religious views) of what is nature and what has always been and what's always be...

But of course, as i said there's a contradiction with the neutral concept of nature (as i already mentioned)...You can read it in some reply above...
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: mineiro on September 10, 2018, 10:48:18 AM
You mean land and other real estate? Yes, even more right than in the western countries.
They receive a leasehold for 70 years, renewed after that (this is what is expected to happen, probably no 70 year leasehold expired yet).
What happens in western countries? In western countries, they say that you "own" the land but you have to pay every year from 2 to 4 percent of its value in property taxes! So after 70 years you paid more than twice what you initially paid for it! So, you don't really own the land, you have to keep paying for it year after year or the government will confiscate it.  :(

I did not said that, completely different.
I know your English does not allow you to understand much of what is said and, even worse, you have no conscience of that.

I understood "own" word, "possession" with a subjective meaning of "owner". In most or probably all western countries government own lands, we have possession rights. This is not different in China. So, "what happens in western countries"? The same.
Goverment only confiscate when the land (terrain) is illegal or being used in a illegal way or acquired in an illegal way or being used to slavery or to pay some pendencies with workers as an example. I suppose you're talking about expropriation.

My question was:
"Do Chinese people have a right to private property? No"
The law does not give the peasants the right to buy (possession) the land they plant, only the option to renew the lease; the only guarantee is that they will not be expelled without due compensation. If we talk about real estate I agree with you.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: hutch-- on September 10, 2018, 11:41:33 AM
It took me a while to find it but its a documentary on China in WW2 and the earlier Japanese invasion. At 45 minutes into the movie is some footage on how the Chinese built the Burma road in less than a year where engineers in western allied countries estimated 7 years if China could provide the heavy machinery. Put aside arbitrary definitions of political systems and see the distinction between a vast number of people (communism) and conventional methods (capitalism) for building a critically necessary road to maintain the supply route into China.

The Battle of China (1944)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIkrgOmsbVY
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 10, 2018, 02:33:04 PM
@felipe
Your explanation is so boring, may be you can try a simpler explanation as Einstein did here (https://sciencelens.co.nz/2012/09/25/math-storytelling-day/).

@mineiro
Since you are eluding the central, decisive point, for a moment I thought nobody pays PROPERTY TAX in Brazil. To my surprise there is property tax as well in Brazil and if you don't pay it the Government will sell the property (https://gauchazh.clicrbs.com.br/politica/noticia/2017/02/calote-ao-iptu-pode-resultar-em-perda-do-imovel-para-o-devedor-9720930.html) as it does everywhere else. So, the property is yours - you "own" it - if you continue paying for it. So, actually you don't own it, it is rented to you by the government!  :badgrin:
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: nidud on September 11, 2018, 12:12:33 AM
Using the assumption that someone somewhere have already created a functional economy and cook up a plan on how to exploit it is not the best way to base a discussion on economic systems.

The base of the economy is still the boy who knocked up his girlfriend and went into dept to by a house. This dept-slavery will then be linked to a fraction of real value (property) which will be realized in the future if the cycle continues and expand.

This render the issue of China irrelevant given all the welt is based on demand from dept created by workers outside the country. This is somewhat seductive given countries like China (at least up till now) don't have to worry about demand-creation but just exploit already existing dept-slaves outside.

So this gives you a choice. You may adapt to the Gypsy lifestyle, gamble on tourism, cheap labour for export, or contribute to the fractional scheme by creating more dept-slaves this year than the last.

The latter option demands higher salaries and the former depends on it.
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: AW on September 11, 2018, 02:33:36 AM
I wonder what "austerity" means.

There is no alternative to an "austerity" program, except not paying.
Greece managed well the situation being able to be forgiven large amounts of its outstanding debts. The remaining its still huge, though. They also tried to invoke German inflicted losses from WWII and reparations not done yet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations) but were not well succeeded  :badgrin:

Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: caballero on September 11, 2018, 04:54:47 AM
@nidud
Mr. Maduro announced regularly a rise in wages for everyone. The crowd cheered him. In the best of cases, if the salary goes up for everyone equally, everything would be as it was at the beginning. The best case is not what usually occurs. Here you have some images of what some items cost, it's spectacular. On one side the article, on the other the pile of bills necessary to buy it.

https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-america-latina-45247489

To raise salaries, you would need money. If you do not have it, you would have to borrow it, and you would need more money to pay the debts. If you do not sell enough to be able to return this money, in the best case it would be stagnant and your system would be inefficient. In the best case.


@aw
I agree with you. The problem is that humanity is a chaotic system. The main economies are already so indebted, that any slight economic puncture can explode the debt of some of them and, consequently, that of all the others. Brutal reset worldwide regardless of whether you try to improve your position.

I knew the case of Greece. Curiously I have recently read that Greece has just lowered taxes (https://okdiario.com/economia/2018/09/09/rebaja-fiscal-grecia-tsipras-baja-sociedades-cotizaciones-sociales-cuotas-autonomos-3091060)
Title: Re: Economic Tendencies
Post by: nidud on September 11, 2018, 05:37:36 AM
@nidud
Mr. Maduro

The possibility that Mr. Maduro is going to invade Europe and announced regularly a rise in wages for everyone is very unlikely.

Quote
To raise salaries, you would need money.

Yes, if there's no profit made by the company it is by definition bankrupt: better close it down.