Author Topic: Trump for president.  (Read 8804 times)

nidud

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2017, 06:42:08 AM »
I haven't study this in detail so I can only speak from our own situation up here. The erosion of the legal and the political system is not something which happens over night or could be traced to a specific person or event but a gradual decline over time.

Rights are not given so you have to fight for it and continue the struggle to improve and maintain it. The latter is often forgotten when established and the class struggle seems redundant when things are going well.


jj2007

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2017, 08:09:47 AM »
But what's that got to do with the historical fact that US started to go wrong around 1973?

1973/74 was the first oil crisis, a period in which huge volumes of money started flowing from U.S. gas guzzlers to Saudi Arabia. How exactly that may have triggered unequality, no idea. Oil crisis #2 was 1980/81. Only much later, the U.S. election campaign budgets started exploding, a sign that Big Money was fighting for control of the government.

anunitu

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2017, 08:44:10 AM »
It was that oil addiction that started our junkie state. There were even back then options for energy,but the oil money train would not stop,and find other sources of energy. Money is the dealer we visit for our fix.

rrr314159

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2017, 04:06:02 AM »
@nidud, that's a dramatic graph! The anti-correlation of unions and income is so perfect one suspects fudging. Note, it comes from (presumably biased) "unionstats.com". Nevertheless I can believe it. Of course they want you to think unionization causes income equality. But to significant extent they're both caused by other factors. For instance, as you say, "the class struggle seems redundant when things are going well."

Note JJ's stats are about overall wealth not just income. Wealth is much more extreme, and much more important when you get into the upper 5 or 10%. Thus income going to top 10% is only 50% or so, while wealth is something like 84% (current USA).

The graph shows today is about the same as roaring 20's. But care must be taken comparing the eras. In 20's poor farmers throughout the bulk of the country could get by with more or less zero income, living off the land. Impossible today. The farther back you go the more important to keep this in mind. Inequality was huge in the age of Crassus but most of the Roman Empire had little need of money. Thus a case can be made that effective inequality in US today is worst in World history.

How does this compare, I wonder, to Europe during the same period? Of course the wars distort the data a lot. But can one claim a similar correlation between unions (a.k.a. socialism, even communism) and wealth inequality?

Bottom line: I'm not entirely convinced but yours is a very relevant point.

@JJ, yes oil crisis was a major factor, caused by the Yom Kippur war. Not surprising that a European would forget the other crisis: Watergate. Viewed from here, it looks just as important. I wonder if there are underlying factors linking them.

It was 1976 when I first noticed that Wall St. was beginning to steal all the money. When I started working, fellow students who just weren't good enough to cut it as "real" mathematicians went to Wall St as a consolation prize. My starting salary was about 1/3 higher. Later the starting salaries of new Wall Streeters was equal to mine, after 5 years of big raises! Couple decades later they were starting around a million. Non-financial mathematicians were no longer in the running. Wall St has never stopped that incredible increase. Milliken stole half a billion; decade later, hedge fund managers were stealing 5 billion at a shot; Now Zuckerberg hit 55 billion. 20-30 years will see the first trillionaires.

@anunitu, oil and energy are very important. But in the big scheme of things they are, I believe, red herrings. Notice that when oil prices are up, Wall St steals lots of money. When they're down, Wall St steals lots of money. When people get angry and pass new laws restricting Wall St activity, Wall St steals  a lot of money. Do you see a pattern? They've stolen, directly, at least 10 trillion in these decades. Indirectly, another 20 or so I guess.
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jj2007

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2017, 05:49:12 AM »
When I started working, fellow students who just weren't good enough to cut it as "real" mathematicians went to Wall St as a consolation prize. My starting salary was about 1/3 higher. Later the starting salaries of new Wall Streeters was equal to mine, after 5 years of big raises! Couple decades later they were starting around a million. Non-financial mathematicians were no longer in the running. Wall St has never stopped that incredible increase.

Rumours say the end of the cold war released a bunch of eggheads who went to Wall Street - another factor. Of course, financial models won't make you rich if you have a thousand dollars to invest. But if you have ten Billions, you can use such models to manipulate the markets. That doesn't create any new wealth for society, but it makes the owner of the model richer very quickly (and the rest poorer, of course).

Once upon a time, the logic of capitalism was "those who work hard and contribute to the wealth of a nation should be rewarded". Now the logic of the system (I wouldn't call it capitalism) is "those who have enough money to distort the markets will take everything". The return of feudalism and slavery is near - but don't worry, panem et circenses is the motto, and slaves will have more than enough iToys to play with 8)

rrr314159

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2017, 07:02:04 AM »
If they "only" manipulated the markets that would be one thing. But they also manipulate the laws and lawmakers to favor them and destroy competition. Manipulate the public via education, media, immigration policy, dumbing them down. It's a full-out effort to break open the piñata, destroy the society, grab every last penny. What happens when the sheep are totally shorn? The circuses stop but more important so does the bread. In about six decades you can expect total collapse in 90% of US. And Europe is not invulnerable.
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felipe

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2017, 09:34:40 AM »
There will be no live taxpayers in the future anyway, only robots. The question is whether their owners will agree to feed the population they don't need anymore. Why would they like to feed billions of people who just eat and shit and pollute the environment? Isn't it a waste of precious and limited resources?

Today's huge world population lives on the energy of fossil fuels. It will have to decrease anyway when they end. The energy coming from the Sun is sufficient for several hundreds of millions only.

Which means communism is inevitable, dear comrades. Mankind will be reorganized as a world wide commune. Consumerism will be a crime.
:P
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hutch--

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2017, 10:38:00 AM »
 :biggrin:

I have long ago had the solution to Wall Street and something that needed to be done back in 2008. Put a plank off one of the tallest buildings on Wall Street, get each merchant banker with their finger in the pie and use a cattle prod to force them to walk the plank. Set it all up as a spectator even at the ground level with true capitalists taking bets on the volume of the SPLAT and after asset stripping these parasites there would be enough money to pay a team with steam cleaners to quickly clean up the mess and send it off to a fertiliser factory to at last make a use of these bastards.

Set up the advertising as "See them come down in the world" with free entry to the event and it would be a smash hit (all puns intended) with the dispossessed.  :biggrin: It could also be described as "Wall Street in free fall".
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Yuri

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2017, 03:13:08 PM »
The return of feudalism and slavery is near - but don't worry, panem et circenses is the motto, and slaves will have more than enough iToys to play with 8)
Why would you need slaves if you have robots? A robot can work 24/7 and won't revolt. Also compare the times needed to make a robot and to grow up a slave. If you need educated, skilled slaves, the difference is even greater. As soon as you have taught one robot to do something, they all can do it because you just install the software to as many of them as you need. It's not nearly as easy with humans.

Hardware modification is only possible with robots. You can't attach a third arm to a human slave or change his size even if he needs it to do his work better, but you can do it to a robot.

Maybe you would only need sex slaves or gladiators for circuses. Something like that.

hutch--

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2017, 03:26:23 PM »
 :biggrin:

> Maybe you would only need sex slaves or gladiators for circuses. Something like that.

I gather that robotic sex slaves have improved a lot lately, they never complain, don't grow old and fat, never nag at you and require no serious maintainance.
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K_F

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2017, 06:58:51 PM »
Yup.. Gravity will never affect those slaves  :icon_mrgreen:
Just think.. you'll only have to push the 'on' button after guzzling a few beers while watching a match  :lol: :lol:
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rrr314159

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2017, 01:44:49 PM »
Looks like you guys have the answer to all the USA's problems!

1) Banksters: make them walk the plank, KILL THEM ALL.
2) Everybody else: keep a few for sex slaves and gladiators. Apart from that, KILL THEM ALL.

Not politically correct, but at least your solution will work. As Saddam Hussein once said: Where there are no people, there are no problems!
One minor issue: how to implement your strategy? But you've figured out the big picture; leave the details to lesser minds.

Now here's the next question: how to fix all the problems of Europe, Australia, and South Africa?
I bet the masm32 Think Tank can answer it off the top of their heads!
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hutch--

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2017, 04:04:19 PM »
 :biggrin:

Aha, the swamp has got at you.  :P

> Looks like you guys have the answer to all the USA's problems!

That is probably fair, the powers that be in the US seem to think that they have all of the world's problems solved. (Bomb the phuk outa them and call the results collateral damage)

Fortunately for those of us who are not the targets of the US police state, we can support our friends in the US (the 99% of the population)  who are also economic collateral damage without having to kiss the arse of the elite.  :dazzled:

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Yuri

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2017, 06:15:28 PM »
Looks like you guys have the answer to all the USA's problems!

1) Banksters: make them walk the plank, KILL THEM ALL.
2) Everybody else: keep a few for sex slaves and gladiators. Apart from that, KILL THEM ALL.

On my part it was not a solution but a prognosis. Has human nature improved since the times of ancient Rome? If not, then anything is possible. Also, I was thinking globally, not just about the US.

The upper classes have always needed the lower classes — for food, service, protection — but this time seems to be ending with the advance of robots. People don't seem to recognize this change and its consequences.

Not only most hands, but also most brains will be replaced with artificial ones. Where will the former workers go and what will they live on?

In the USSR it wouldn't have been a problem, since all plants and factories belonged to the entire nation. If they had been fully automated, OK, people just wouldn't have had to work, and the product would have been divided among all of them more or less equally.

What about a capitalist state? How is it supposed to solve this issue? Is private property still sacred or not?

How can capitalism and market economy survive in such circumstances? I don't have an answer. It seems they can't survive.

Market economy is based on people selling something they have so they can buy something they need. Most people now sell themselves as workforce. As soon as there is no demand for it, they will have nothing to sell and the market will disappear.

Who will feed, clothe and shelter those people from the cradle to the grave? Apparently the state. How will it obtain the resources needed? It will have to nationalize either most of the product or the entire economy. The solution is obviously socialism/communism.

anunitu

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Re: Trump for president.
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2017, 10:04:13 PM »
All that you say is true,but the outcome is dependent on human beings not acting normally. Sadly,normal human reaction is not always caring and helpful. Many people would only consider their own personal needs. It "Might" be that robots become "Aware",and display more concern for their creators and become the "Masters" and we their beloved "Pets" Go fetch!