Author Topic: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.  (Read 44927 times)

dedndave

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2012, 09:02:32 PM »
by law, such things are not supposed to happen
but, on the list of things that the laws are supposed to prevent, it seems rather trivial
i say that because i believe the vote you cast is often subject to someones ability to toss it out
...and because most politicians do things that are much worse than that

npnw

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2012, 02:01:47 PM »
dedndave ,
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but, on the list of things that the laws are supposed to prevent, it seems rather trivial

Unless its millions of votes. Then  it doesn't seem to be quite so little.

Of course the Republicans passing voter suppression laws with no evidence of voter fraud seems rather trivial.

The politicians are counting on you not really caring. If you don't care then accept what you get. What if Dee got really sick you hit your limit on health insurance or they let her die while you were fighting for treatment? Then you would care.  Had to use personal to get point across.

I'm hoping my argument will make people more informed and interested in what all politicians do.


If that was your point. Otherwise I've misunderstood. 

Hutch,  maybe compulsory would be good over here. Then people couldn't complain about who got elected cause they didn't vote.

mywan

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2012, 03:35:28 PM »
As much as I would like to vote Obama out of office there is simply no way I am going to vote for any of the contenders up for the job at present. I respect Ron Paul for at least standing for what he actually believes, much of it I even consider perfectly valid, unlike any other contender. He just goes a bit too far overboard in some ways on ideological grounds alone to seriously consider voting in. The alternatives are getting worse though. I just hope Obama doesn't take winning against Daffy duck as some kind of mandate the way Bush did...

Bill Cravener

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2012, 07:55:30 PM »
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If you're one of those people who thinks President Obama is a "disappointment," condolences for not getting your unicorn. And it's time to grow up, get over it.
What Has Obama Done? Here Are 194 Accomplishments! With Citations!

dedndave

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2012, 09:35:27 PM »
Obama may not be my favorite president...
but he beats the hell of what we had before that

the problems don't all fall in the president's lap, though
what we really need are 435 new representitives and 100 new senators - a nice fresh start
and, when the next presidential election rolls around, maybe we'll have a list to choose from

MichaelW

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2012, 02:30:41 AM »
Obama may not be my favorite president...
but he beats the hell of what we had before that
Even I will agree with that.

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what we really need are 435 new representitives and 100 new senators - a nice fresh start

Yes, but unfortunately a complete turnover will take two elections, and the remaining older members will have two years to “train” the newer members.
Well Microsoft, here’s another nice mess you’ve gotten us into.

npnw

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2012, 02:43:13 AM »
In my opinion... for what its worth  :biggrin:

We need our representatives to represent us. That doesn't mean they all vote the same way on everything. There are things they should not agree on, and things that while they don't agree... that they can find common sense solutions too.  Instead of these illogical positions that the Republicans have, I would like government to be more conservative, but I don't want them to cut our throats. We have to keep the long term goals of deficit reduction in mind, a strong military but cut back, and more investment in America. Reduce taxes on the middle class and make the people who can afford it pay more.  Infrastructure spending is definitely something that is needed and would give us value for the money we spend.... yet the Republicans absolutely oppose this on the grounds it will help Obama get re-elected.  Israel's health care cost 8% vs our cost of 18%. If we are truly going to reduce our deficit here is a 10% cut in GDP outlays or 1.5 trillion in cost reduction.  If they were more reasonable and made sense I would vote Republican... yet I don't see that any time soon.

dedndave

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2012, 11:00:04 AM »
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...and the remaining older members will have two years to “train” the newer members

and that pretty much sums up our problem
the "good ole' boys" and "you scratch my back, i'll scratch yours" m.o.'s cannot be undone with the present system

mywan

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2012, 07:03:32 PM »
Quote
If you're one of those people who thinks President Obama is a "disappointment," condolences for not getting your unicorn. And it's time to grow up, get over it.
What Has Obama Done? Here Are 194 Accomplishments! With Citations!
Ugh, that looks like a lot of hyperbole. What about NDAA?

http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/ndaa
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On December 31, 2011, President Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), codifying indefinite military detention without charge or trial into law for the first time in American history. The NDAA’s dangerous detention provisions would authorize the president — and all future presidents — to order the military to pick up and indefinitely imprison people captured anywhere in the world, far from any battlefield.
This was of course squashed:
http://rt.com/usa/news/ndaa-judge-obama-forrest-295/
But how can you take any president serious that is that ignorant of basic legal rights? No, not gun rights and other such crap, but straight up legal rights!!! Yes, that goes for the idiot Bush to, and anybody who wants to soft pedal this stuff for one political party while screaming foul on the other are straight up political hacks in my book, and I do NOT care to hear it. This is precisely why Obama can do this kind of stuff and there's not even any contender for me to pass my vote to. It was Senators Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.) that drafted this BS bill in private without any kind of hearing, and Obama signed it.

Just look at what Snopes had to say about it:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/ndaa.asp
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This means Americans could be declared domestic terrorists and thrown in a military brig with no recourse whatsoever. Given that the Department of Homeland Security has characterized behavior such as buying gold, owning guns, using a watch or binoculars, donating to charity, using the telephone or email to find information, using cash, and all manner of mundane behaviors as potential indicators of domestic terrorism, such a provision would be wide open to abuse.

Even Obama's own signing statements admit to such problems:
http://blogs.ajc.com/jamie-dupree-washington-insider/2011/12/31/obama-defense-bill-signing-statement/
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The fact that I support this bill as a whole does not mean I agree with everything in it. In particular, I have signed this bill despite having serious reservations with certain provisions that regulate the detention, interrogation, and prosecution of suspected terrorists.

I don't give a crap how much I trust Obama's promise not to use such provisions, or use them 'improperly', regardless of circumstances Obama is not the president forever. It's NOT even on the table as an option in the law, period. In my book it's an impeachable offense for democrats and republicans alike! It makes the Patriot Act look almost inconsequential!!!

So this partisan political hackery crap, such as the above link, is just so much smelly crap!

Bill Cravener

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2012, 09:45:14 PM »
Republicans on Sunday accused Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of lying by passing along an anonymous claim that GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney hasn't paid taxes for 10 years. Republican Party chairman Reince Priebus called Reid a "dirty liar." Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said, "I think he's lying about his statement of knowing something about Romney" and he contended Reid was "making things up to divert the campaign away from the real issues." Reid's spokesman, Adam Jentleson, contended that Republicans were trying to cover up for Romney and the aide repeated the Nevada senator's claims that the source about Romney's taxes is indeed credible.

You know “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”. For three years we have listen to the Right make the absurd claim that President Obama is not an American born citizen. If Romney wants to clear this up then do what President Obama had to do, prove it! Show the American people your tax returns for the past 10 years. Prove to us you paid taxes Romney. But we know Romney won’t. Why won’t he? Because it’s the truth, he paid no taxes the past 10 years! :icon13:


jj2007

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2012, 07:49:17 PM »
Nouriel Roubini, the economist who earned the nickname Dr Doom for his prediction that the crisis was about to hit, blames Bush. Obama "inherited a mess", Roubini has said. "We're lucky that this Great Recession is not turning into another Great Depression."

(the rest is also worth reading)

Bill Cravener

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2012, 12:33:26 AM »
Good read Jochen,

I see Romney isn't much liked in Italy either. :biggrin:

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Mitt Romney skipped Italy on his swing through Europe. That was probably prudent.

Romney Persona Non Grata In Italy For Bain’s Deal Skirting Taxes
 

mywan

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2012, 05:44:18 AM »
Nouriel Roubini, the economist who earned the nickname Dr Doom for his prediction that the crisis was about to hit, blames Bush. Obama "inherited a mess", Roubini has said. "We're lucky that this Great Recession is not turning into another Great Depression."

(the rest is also worth reading)
The blame game is not terribly honest on either side. However, in terms of underwriting powers on which the housing crisis was generated, the Democrats have a lot to answer for. Some bullet points to keep in mind:

1) Freddie and Fannie Mae are GSEs (Government Sponsored Enterprises), not publicly or privately owned banks per se.
2) The authority to underwrite derivatives in the housing market was only possibly under the auspices of GSEs.
3) All the usual regulations banking regulations, that all other banks where subject to, did not apply to these GSEs. This includes being exempt from the Glass-Steagal Act of 1933, the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, or the Sarbanes–Oxley Act of 2002.
4) The Bush administration warned that these GSEs where a "potential problem" in 2001 (2002 budget request), and upgraded that a "systemic risk" in 2003.
5) After these GSEs were called out for financial misconduct by FHFA (Federal Housing Finance Agency) the Democrats stonewalled a Republican attempt at regulating these GSEs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_2D4mK95NQ

Now, was everything stated here true? Yes. Was everything stated completely fair? Maybe not entirely... In particular, consider Frank Raines quote from the above video:
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These assets are so riskless that their capital for holding them should be under 2%.
That lack of capital backing of course had catastrophic consequences. However, this claim was predicated on, among other things, an equation that won a Nobel Prize in economics. Called the Black-Scholes equation. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the equation itself, but the price setting mechanism described depending on setting derivative values based on the trade value of the underlying stock. Only the underwriting, through GSEs and the implied government backing that entailed, became such a hot commodity that there was no underlying stock available for trade. They ALL went into producing these derivatives, which were now setting their own market inflated value due to the false sense of security the financial instrument seemed to promise. Hence their value well exceeded any reasonable value of the underlying stock.

Of course it was made even more complex than even this, with even more promises of even low risk. To understand this side of the issue the best resource I know of is to watch a show aired by the Research Channel by the University of Washington called:
Are Mathematical Models the Cause for Financial Crisis in the Global Economy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhX0PGG-baI
It's fairly long but such is the price of remedying ignorance.

I may not not agree completely with Andrew W. Lo's outtake at the end, but if there is any point to take from all this it's that's this blame game, in and around politics, is just so much BS. Had someone had the foreknowledge and the power to put a stop to this before the actual crash, and actually done so, they would have been the scapegoat of this blame game, period. And there would have been NO, zero, evidence that the problems the fix created wasn't worse than the as yet nonexistent crash it prevented. If that was you, would you have payed the price of being the most hated person in the world to dish out hardships in order to ameliorate damages that had never occurred to date?

jj2007

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2012, 07:59:48 PM »
... if there is any point to take from all this it's that's this blame game, in and around politics, is just so much BS.

I've read your points with interest, and find them valid, and I tried to understand the videos linked (difficult because I am better in reading than listening, and because U.S. politics are not my specialisation  ;)).

Perhaps one should distinguish between good intentions and final outcomes, and perhaps, as a first step, one should drop the assumption that the U.S. president is the most powerful person in the world.

Clinton intended to increase house ownership, and a look at government debt and a couple of other economic indicators would confirm that he was overall a successful president. But he will remain also the one, historically, who started the housing bubble and deregulated the financial markets, and he'll be blamed for that; although we'll never know who exactly pushed that through the political process. Google for regulatory capture...

Likewise, Obama intended to give health insurance to the poor. His intentions were watered down considerably, to the point that you may ask what is left of the original intention. He will be blamed for any side effects, of course. He will be, historically, the president of good intentions and watered-down outcomes. And one might ask why he got so much financing during his campaign against McCain.

However, imagine Bush would have been followed by Romney - where would the U.S. stand right now? But of course, Americans firmly believe that the Reps are fighting for them (David Brooks, NYT):

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The most telling polling result from the 2000 election was from a Time magazine survey that asked people if they are in the top 1 percent of earners. Nineteen percent of Americans say they are in the richest 1 percent.

Which means they don't have the faintest idea what it means to be really in the top 1% class, the one whose interests Romney will defend in case he wins.

MichaelW

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Re: Even conservatives wonder what Romney is hiding.
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2012, 10:28:06 PM »
Or it means that 19% of Americans regularly practice lying, hoping one day to be a successful politician :icon_eek:
Well Microsoft, here’s another nice mess you’ve gotten us into.