Author Topic: America and our love for guns!  (Read 77519 times)

jj2007

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2012, 05:43:32 AM »
Let’s assume for argument's sake there are some 100 people in the theater. Of that 100 let's speculate that oh say 20 men/women are carrying a hand gun. Of that 20 lets assume 10 of those gun carriers know how to handle a hand gun.

People need to be taught to stay low and on the ground if possible when bullets are flying by.

First, there is a problem with the assumptions. On average, 97 out of 100 U.S. citizens have a gun, so the cinema was crammed full with persons who (according to the self-defense theory) could have stood up and killed "Batman" before he did any harm.

Second, those 3 that didn't have a gun should really have known that staying low on the ground would save their lives...

So how come 12 persons were killed, and Batman walked out alive?
Or, put differently, could the killing have been prevented if every person over 14 who enters a cinema was obliged to carry a Kalashnikov?

dedndave

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2012, 05:51:42 AM »
Quote
On average, 97 out of 100 U.S. citizens have a gun.

 :icon_eek:  that's not a very good statistic
or, perhaps, it is a twist on some otherwise realistic numbers

i would venture to say that there are not even 97 guns in the US per 100 citizens,
assuming we are not counting military equipment

Quote
The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United States is 270000000
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

US population: 311,591,917
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

that's 86.65 %
and - you are assuming that each person that owns a gun owns only 1 gun
a silly assumption, as many owners that are into guns own several
the 270 million number would also include all those guns owned by manufacturers, dealers, etc

my guess of individuals that own guns would be less than 50%
and - we could eliminate rifles and shotguns
you might go to the theatre packing a pistol, but not so likely to have a 30-06 hunting rifle - lol

Ryan

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2012, 06:00:19 AM »
Maybe it's an average of 97 guns per 100 citizens.  For the big-time gun collectors, they would skew the average a bit.

What you would want to look up as a good statistic would be the percentage of people that have concealed carry.  That would be much closer to a realistic number.  I know in Ohio, we are allowed to own guns and keep them in our houses and whatnot, but we are not allowed to carry them with us on a day-to-day basis without the concealed carry permit.

Ryan

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2012, 06:01:35 AM »
Or better yet, maybe it's per household.

dedndave

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2012, 06:11:20 AM »
here in AZ, you can carry if it is not concealed
of course, you can't enter a bank, unless you have some kind of permit, i hope
i know that some who make very large deposits are allowed to do so - not sure what the rule is
and - i know you can't go into a bar unless you check your weapon
many buildings have no guns allowed signs

Bill's scenario is still a bit stretched

but - the fact is....
if i were carrying (in a theatre or otherwise) and some nut-job started shooting up the place,
i would be reluctant to pull my weapon unless i knew there was a clear shot
i would be more concerned about NOT shooting an innocent bystander than getting the bad guy

also - if you are ducking out of the way, he sees you as a potential victim
you pull a gun out - and he sees you as a potential threat
be prepared to have bullets flying your way
that means that you don't want bystanders near you, either

mywan

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2012, 06:17:39 AM »
Just imagine going to a movie with your family or friends while enjoying popcorn and a flick when out of nowhere some nut who went to the local gun dealer and purchase a gun with no background check appears then systematically mows down your wife and kids, your best friend, the people next to them, and the people down the aisle with his AK47 blazing.
Red added. For all handgun sales in every state the gun dealer would be convicted, along with the person purchasing the gun. Most states also include long rifles. Even in those states that exempt long rifles and/or exempt them in person to person sales, if the seller had any reason to suspect the buyer was a felon then they can also be convicted under state and federal laws. Many states even require all person to person sales to go through a dealer. Even the gun show loop hole was closed after an infamous incident, and the major motivating factor behind the instant checks though NCIC. The system is full of holes, and even provides a simple method of checking out the effectiveness of stolen identities. Yet, in spite of this, the "no background check" is a red herring.

The problem is not the lack of background checks, but rather the states properly reporting to NCIC. Domestic abuse, mental illness, and other disqualifiers under Brady often simply go unreported to these databases. In the case of this latest incident there's not much a background check could have done to help under the best of circumstances.

Neither do I accept the significance of the risk you describe or the overall relevance of this case to gun laws issues. People are at far greater risk from driving or riding a vehicle than getting caught up in something like this. Even 9/11 pales in comparison to daily risk we totally ignore. I can support any reasonable methods of strengthening our background check system, but unfortunately it has to be played by the numbers. Outlawing every risks is not possible.

hutch--

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2012, 01:28:55 PM »
There was some virtue in allowing rifles over a certain length, can you imagine trying to sneak an M16 into a picture theatre ? Apart from security people, few have any real use for a handgun, you rarely ever see anyone hunt with one and if they do its for amusement, not hunger. Large scale rifle ownership adds a risk element to crimes involving armed break ins, armed assaults and other home based intrusions, an armed thief will be far less inclined to break into a house in the middle of the night if he/she risks getting their brains blown out.

In OZ we have had strong restrictions on handgun ownership since the 1920s but even in the current anti-gun era there are three classes of people with handguns, security based personel (police, security guards etc ...), oriental drug dealers and persons of "Middle Eastern Appearance" with ambitions of terrorist activities. Just recently there was a scam exposed where a number of such persons were importing hand gun as parts and assembling them here. They were based in a suburban Sydney post office. Fortunately our Federal Police don't mess around, they catch them, drag them through court and stick them in the "boob" for eternity.
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mywan

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2012, 03:24:05 PM »
It's not uncommon here to see hunting rifles in a gun rack in the back window of the truck in front of you.

MichaelW

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2012, 03:40:05 PM »
It’s insanity to think that the outcome would have been less tragic in my scenario described above.

AFAIK he was standing in front of the screen, effectively above the crowd, and under those conditions an armed person with the right skills could have easily killed him. No taxpayer funds spent on a prosecution, or multiple appeals, or long-term incarceration, and no possibility of him getting out and repeating the offence.

Given our history, our Constitution, and our reality today, it’s not possible to take the guns away from the bad guys. Long before you could get their guns you would have disarmed virtually all of the law-abiding citizens, making them easy prey. The only viable solution is to allow law-abiding citizens to defend themselves effectively, not only in their homes and businesses but also in public, and clearly a solid majority of people here recognize this.


Well Microsoft, here’s another nice mess you’ve gotten us into.

Ghandi

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2012, 05:02:30 PM »
But the biggest problem with 'common sense' is that it is not very common, plus you are disregarding human behaviour:

These people went to a movie theatre to watch a new release movie, i'm sure that not a single one of them was thinking that they might have to encounter a homicidal gun wielding nuffy and when it occurred i think rational thought would have been pushed aside for self-preservation instincts, as non-sensical as they may seem.

Fear and confusion affect peoples judgement, clouds their thinking and in the heat of the moment, anything can happen. It is the same thing when it comes to physical confrontation and violence, generally speaking, a person freezes for an instant if they haven't encountered it before and that can mean the difference between dodging a swing or wearing it on the jaw.

Note, i did say generally speaking, there are exceptions to this rule whereby people will react and launch a pre-emptive attack for the same reason: self-preservation, the thing which drives all living creatures which aren't mixed up.

HR,
Ghandi

mywan

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2012, 05:23:28 PM »
Given our history, our Constitution, and our reality today, it’s not possible to take the guns away from the bad guys.
This is very true. If I'm determined to have a gun when none are available then ace hardware is as good a gun shop as any. Neither do you need to buy commercial gunpowder or fertilizer to have highly effective explosives. The biggest safety factor here is simple lack of skills or knowledge. Security through obscurity... Luckily it reasonably effective in most cases, but complete security is a delusional myth.

Ghandi

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2012, 05:33:50 PM »
Quote
In OZ we have had strong restrictions on handgun ownership since the 1920s but even in the current anti-gun era there are three classes of people with handguns, security based personel (police, security guards etc ...), oriental drug dealers and persons of "Middle Eastern Appearance" with ambitions of terrorist activities. Just recently there was a scam exposed where a number of such persons were importing hand gun as parts and assembling them here. They were based in a suburban Sydney post office. Fortunately our Federal Police don't mess around, they catch them, drag them through court and stick them in the "boob" for eternity.

You are not including rural areas where people carry rifles and ammunition behind their utility seat? Case in point, there was a utitilty (Hilux) stolen from Sydney that a rural person had used for shooting the night before. His rifle and approx 200 rounds of .303 ammunition were stolen along with the utility, it was recovered the next day along with the gun and ammunition but it could have ended a lot worse...

Or another rural based case:

Quote

Teen charged after guns, ammunition, alcohol stolen Save

June 28, 2012, 12:15 a.m.

Larger / SmallerNight Mode


AN ILLABO teenager has been charged after a caravan was broken into and rifles, ammunition, alcohol and movies were stolen.


See your ad here

Police allege the 17-year-old boy went to a Gregory’s Lane, Illabo property and forced his way into a caravan in a shearing shed during the night of June 25.

Two .22 rifles, ammunition for the firearms, two bottles of Jack Daniels whiskey and a number of DVDs were taken during the break-in, police allege.

According to police, the teenager set up a number of targets around his property and used the rifles to fire a number of rounds at them.

The boy was arrested at his home at 11.50pm last night and the guns, ammunition and some of the alcohol were recovered by police.

He was taken to Wagga police station and charged with break, enter and steal. The boy was granted conditional bail will face Wagga Children’s Court on August 14.

Although licensing and permits have tightened since Port Arthur, there are still plenty of people with firearms who should not have them and this is illustrated by cases such as this. The owner will complain that people shouldn't have stolen their weaponry but if they did what they were supposed to it wouldn't happen in the first place, rural people seem to be the most lax when it comes to gun control and safe practices (i live rurally, i'm not pointing the finger from the city).

1. Store firearms in safe, lockable place such as a proper gun safe or at a clubs safe.
2. Do not store firing pin/mechanism with firearms.
3. Do not keep ammunition out in the open, lock it up also, separate from the firearm.

These three things will not totally prevent it from happening but unless the perpetrator already knows where everything is, they now have the challenge of completing the firearms and sourcing ammunition before it can be used as a firearm.

HR,
Ghandi

dedndave

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2012, 07:05:10 PM »
Ghandi - your little 1,2,3 lists are a lot of fun   :P
Code: [Select]
1. Store firearms in safe, lockable place such as a proper gun safe or at a clubs safe.
2. Do not store firing pin/mechanism with firearms.
3. Do not keep ammunition out in the open, lock it up also, separate from the firearm.
if you do all that - you are going to have a lot of fumbling to do if a burglar breaks in
they make trigger locks that are pretty effective for safety   :t

Bill Cravener

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2012, 07:14:05 PM »
The only viable solution is to allow law-abiding citizens to defend themselves effectively, not only in their homes and businesses but also in public, and clearly a solid majority of people here recognize this.

It is horrifying that we are headed in that direction. We have become so gun loving, so gun crazy, so numbed by home grown violence that far more Americans have become casualties of domestic gunfire than have died in all our wars combined.

So often after these horrid events occur there are many who say we need more guns not less. Or the nonsense that “If I had only been there with my gun I’d have killed the sonofabitch!”. The problem with this mindset of course is the public at large is being asked to arm everyone and trust that the right gun owner will quickly dispatch the bad guy in a modern equivalent of the “Shootout at the OK Corral” with bullets flying in all directions. Yes that would make me feel safer, not!!

What I see is a future were even our school teachers will have to be armed in case a nut happens to walk into a preschool and starts firing away at our kids. Or in the case of the Aurora Theater arm the ticket taker so perhaps they might stop a madman from entering. As I stated in a previous post we are reverting back to the Old West frame of mind where everyone carries a gun. How sad if it comes to that, we the supposed civilized nation called the United States of American.

Maybe you members remember the video were Adam Gadahn, an American born member of al Qaeda, the first US citizen charged with treason since 1952, urges terrorists to carry out attacks on the United States. Right before your eyes he says, “America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms. You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle without a background check, and most likely, without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?”

I’ve been a gun owner and avid hunter since the age of twelve yet I see the true reality in all of this; what the NRA has become is the enabler of death. They are a paranoid delusional bunch and as venomous as a deadly scorpion. With the weak kneed consent of our politicians the National Rifle Association has turned the U.S. second amendment into a very cruel and deadly hoax.


Bill Cravener

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Re: America and our love for guns!
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2012, 07:18:14 PM »
they make trigger locks that are pretty effective for safety   :t

Dave, what time is it there in AZ. And I thought I was an early riser. :biggrin: