Author Topic: €2,420 million fine  (Read 1491 times)

mineiro

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2017, 04:29:53 AM »
Oh yes caballero, Embraer is a good company, one of few that works here. We have petrobras (oil) too, that's now on corruption scandals. These big companies have been done with money of our ancestours, it's supposed to be a Brazil company, but the reality is that who owns goverment holds these companies. Man, only living on this wonderland to understand, it's hard talk about. Some company's have been created or maintained on militar age, after WW2. If you talk about military on my country don't expect good answers, they are "bad". Persons say that they killed 400 persons that was against military goverment on comunist epoch. One of that guys against military was Lula and Dilma. But what they don't show or talk is about 400 militants killing 300 civilians, that on cccp killed 20 milions persons, on china 64 milions, ..., how grow bilionaries from left side if everyone is supposed to be equal? . It's hard talk about. Petrobras was created by military, the money that come from petrobras is good, petrobras creators are bad.
If you stay in front of a hospital much more than 400 persons die per week, but nobody care, but if you say the word military ... .

 :biggrin: , winter.
I'd rather be this ambulant metamorphosis than to have that old opinion about everything

nidud

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2017, 04:49:58 AM »
Ultimately, I think it can indeed be for the population - less taxes means more resources to be available for the privates to manage which usually translate in more jobs and grow.

Jobs and financial growth are the result of increased demand for goods and services. Increased demand comes from increased salaries: people are buying more stuff. If you have any empirical evidence to suggest this is wrong, that reducing wages (giving more money to the rich as you say) leads to increased demand for goods and services and thereby financial growth that would be interesting.

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The fallacy here is infer that more money in the hands of the rich will translate in less for the poor

Depends how you look at it I guess. If it is the government who have all this money, regardless how they get it, and they decide for politically motivated reasons to give it to the rich instead of the poor the logical conclusion would suggest there will be less for the poor.

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- I don't think so - just because a rich can afford eating lobsters every day does not mean he is stealing lobsters from the stomach of the poor people.

So if the government collect money from the poor and give it to the rich they can by a lobster.

nidud

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2017, 05:30:14 AM »
Do you remember that communism was set to destroy capitalism?

No. Think the idea was that capitalism would implode from accumulating dept or something.

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However, capitalists outsmarted them - unions have almost no representation inside the big private companies.

And that's a good thing?

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To survive, communists enticed the public servants which is a class of people always ready to earn more and more while working less and less.

Sounds like northern Europe which has the strongest unions and as a result the highest salaries. And yes, they work less and less but still manage to produce more and more.

aw27

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2017, 05:57:58 AM »
No. Think the idea was that capitalism would implode
Then they decided they could not afford to wait thousands of years for that to happen and changed their minds in 1917.  :badgrin:
 
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And that's a good thing?
Do you know what are unions commanded by the Communist Party?


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Sounds like northern Europe which has the strongest unions and as a result the highest salaries. And yes, they work less and less but still manage to produce more and more.
You live in Norway, so called Kuwait of Europe, it is easy to say we know how to do it better when things run so smoothly by a gift of God. But remember - correlation is no causality. :t And we all know that Norway had really bad times in the distant past.

mineiro

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2017, 07:35:54 AM »
Look for Hong Kong or Singapore 60 years ago and now. How they reached that?
The thing is not about capitalism or socialism, both systems have faults and goodies. If you have a stable economic system where goverment don't touch their finger, you can be anything that will work fine.
I have started talking about global goverment and the effects are clear, on Brazil 30 years ago you see poverty people without teeth smiling, today we are champions on depression. I'm not against help poor people, never I will be, but solution is not got money from banks and throw consequences to future generations.
Well, this is why I don't like Soros and Ford foundations, they are destroying us thinking that are doing a good thing.
I'd rather be this ambulant metamorphosis than to have that old opinion about everything

nidud

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2017, 08:01:58 AM »
Do you know what are unions commanded by the Communist Party?

So when the workers take control over the state and the company they work in they still have a "union" demanding higher salaries for them selves from themselves?

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You live in Norway, so called Kuwait of Europe, it is easy to say we know how to do it better when things run so smoothly by a gift of God.

Not much use in the gift if you privatize the profit from it except some tax revenue from some unorganized low-paid workers working on the rigs, as was the case from the start when foreign oil companies was in control. The real benefit (for the people that is) started after the evil socialists nationalized it.

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But remember - correlation is no causality. :t

Working long hours for low pay with less to no privileges is the trademark of all poor countries and that's basically what you advocating here. The European country who work the lowest hours is Germany and they have strong unions. Same goes for Sweden, Denmark, Finland and the rest of northern Europe. Think the country who work the longest hours in Europe is Greece. Do you start to see a correlating pattern here?

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And we all know that Norway had really bad times in the distant past.

Norway and the rest of Scandinavia have always been a fishing and farming community so if you mean the lack of bling bling is the same as having really bad times then yes. We did however have a strong union during the industrial revolution, demanding beer-breaks and free beer during working hours. You may find plenty of pictures of young lads pushing wheelbarrows full of drunk people back from work. What you wont fine up here is a lot of billionaires. They usually move south to avoid taxes. You know, where people like you live, but I'm sure they create a lot of high paying jobs down there so it's all good.

felipe

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2017, 08:13:17 AM »
You are talking about communism by the old books of father Karl Marx? Yes, that one can not exist, but they pretend it is an ultimate goal and in the meantime what matters is destroy the existing system :bgrin:

Well i'm glad you know about this.  :t But i don't think is impossible.
Apart from that, (i really can't start writting in english all what i think about that with too much facility), i think he and Engels were good thinkers and wrote very good works.  :icon14:
Felipe.

mineiro

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2017, 08:25:35 AM »
I like to ask a question:
If we get all money of this world and divide to all persons on this world so everybody will be poor, no exception.
Anyone have a solution to take out poverty?
I'd rather be this ambulant metamorphosis than to have that old opinion about everything

felipe

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2017, 08:54:16 AM »
I like to ask a question:
If we get all money of this world and divide to all persons on this world so everybody will be poor, no exception.
Anyone have a solution to take out poverty?

Sure, let's burn the money.
Felipe.

GoneFishing

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2017, 09:04:01 AM »
I like to ask a question:
If we get all money of this world and divide to all persons on this world so everybody will be poor, no exception.
Anyone have a solution to take out poverty?

I see what you have in mind
Press Total Reset button maybe or shorten the population ?

mineiro

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2017, 09:41:11 AM »
I see what you have in mind
Press Total Reset button maybe or shorten the population ?
I don't like actual solutions, to me that's not a solution just the problem. Well, reset the world and I have sure that I will be reseted, shorten population too.  :biggrin: Smiling to not cry.
It's hard talk about a simple theme without generate some reactions on persons, a delicated talk because involve both sides of same coin.

felipe, Russia have excelent writers, a rich literature until today. A parent of mine tell me that if you search to 80 or 100 years ago you can find more than 100 thinkers, man, insane, my country today have 1 or 2 only.
I'd rather be this ambulant metamorphosis than to have that old opinion about everything

felipe

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2017, 01:34:18 PM »
Ok mineiro, but Marx and Engels were germans.
Felipe.

aw27

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2017, 02:11:09 PM »
Think the country who work the longest hours in Europe is Greece. Do you start to see a correlating pattern here?
There is no pattern, you are confusing correlation with causality. And Greeks don't "work" the longest hours, I have been in Greece many times - they did not reach the bottom of the valley for their "hard working" hours. :badgrin:

aw27

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2017, 03:23:59 PM »
Think the country who work the longest hours in Europe is Greece. Do you start to see a correlating pattern here?
There is no pattern, you are confusing correlation with causality. And Greeks don't "work" the longest hours, I have been in Greece many times - they did not reach the bottom of the valley for their "hard working" hours. :badgrin:
Statistics are not Greece's strongest point.

In short, I don't buy the assertion that working less produces more. Sometimes I work 80 hours per week (well, some people believe I spend my days doing nothing  ;)) and I know that I can't really reach my goals with less hours.

mineiro

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Re: €2,420 million fine
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2017, 08:50:11 PM »
felipe, Russia have excelent writers, a rich literature until today. A parent of mine tell me that if you search to 80 or 100 years ago you can find more than 100 thinkers, man, insane, my country today have 1 or 2 only.
Ok mineiro, but Marx and Engels were germans.
I don't say that.


Sure, let's burn the money.
To me this is not a solution. After all money have been burn, what will happen? Barter?

--edit--
I was thinking about this, I like this talk.
And if instead burn all money we triplicate all money?
Money maybe cannot be the case, just consequence or effect.
I'd rather be this ambulant metamorphosis than to have that old opinion about everything