The MASM Forum

My Windows 7 computer blew up. I got a decent used one for $cheap, but it has Windows 10, which I hate more than any other OS I've every used. So I want to "downgrade" to 7.

I confess I don't know exactly what I need to do this. Looking on eBay, I found a bunch of Windows 7 discs for sale. Most of them require that you have a product key, which I don't since the old system was secondhand to me. But there are some that include a product key, like this one (https://www.ebay.com/itm/364016031111). Will this work? Can I boot my Windows 10 system with this disk and install 7? (The disc comes with a "non-working hard drive" which came with the original package, but which you don't need to install the OS.)

I'm wondering because this is what it says on the outside of the package:

Quote
The software is intended for preinstallation on the hard drive of the fully assembled computer system, using the OEM pre-installation tools. For information about using OEM pre-installation tools, see [Microsoft web site].

Obviously I don't have any of these "OEM pre-installation tools". Will I be able to just put this disc in my DVD drive and go?

I was thinking maybe I could reformat the primary hard drive and then install: will the computer boot off of the installation CD? or do I not need to go to this extreme?

You could try something like Linux Mate. and use a Virtual Machine for Windows programming.If you don't want to, that's cool.
You can find windows ISO images and serial number on the internet. Yes, there is a risk, but you are installing Win 7, a 13 year old OS, so putting it on the internet would be a mistake.
There are people selling the serial keys on eBay, but again you don't know how many times they have sold the same license.
I am not sure if you can still buy a license of Win 7 from M$, but that would be the safest way, but most likely the most exspensive.
Yes, the Win 7 disk should boot, so then I suggest that you remove the partitions and install win 7.
The OEM software is for brand name PC's like Dell, etc so it will not install on a non-dell machine.
A standard version of Windows will install on most hardware, but the drivers will be required to make things nicer.

Aaaaaaargh, forgot about drivers. Computah is a Dell, but again I have no OEM stuff. Isn't the OS install smart enough to figure out what it needs and copy it?* Seems like all that stuff is pretty well known.

And I really do not want to mess w/Linux (or any *nix for that matter), thank you very much.

* I will say that Windows 10 is a lot smarter than preceding versions. I forget exactly what I was doing, but the OS "filled in the blanks" for me while setting something up, a shortcut or startup item or some such.

Yea, that pre-installation is for the OS already installed on the Hard Disk. You get to make only ONE backup and once you have done that, It's done, so it will not install again. But I think it also relies on a hidden partition.
It depends on the hardware whether or not Win 7 will have the drivers. At any point though you would be better off looking for the latest drivers.
What is the hardware or Dell model No?

On a side note, I personally like the Dell OptiPlex GX280 and Latitude 610, but only for retro stuff.
I am sorry, but I don't know how much you know about computers, so if I say something that seems simplistic, I am not being condescending.

David,

If you can get hold of Win10 pro, its a lot better version that the home version and if you hunt around the legal cheap licences for it, you can generally get it for peanuts. In the last year I installed my own 64 bit Win7 ultimate retail on one of the Xeon boxes and it ran, but in comparison to win 10, it was old, slow and toothless. In particular, the graphics were poor in comparison.

Quote from: Shintaro on November 04, 2022, 03:29:15 PM
On a side note, I personally like the Dell OptiPlex GX280 and Latitude 610, but only for retro stuff.

it's a Dell OptiPlex-[something]. Don't know how to find out stuff about the computer in Windows 10. Or do I need to run someone's utility to do this? (I want model, processor, stepping, etc.)

Quote
I am sorry, but I don't know how much you know about computers, so if I say something that seems simplistic, I am not being condescending.

I know enough to get into trouble. (insert smiley emoji here)

No, I appreciate that; you have no way of knowing who you're "talking" to here. No offense taken. (I do know a lot about computers in general, but haven't kept up at all with specific hardware for the last, oh, 10 years or so, so pretty ignorant of all the bells and whistles.)

First thing, scour the internet for necessary drivers. See if they are available for Windows 7 for your computer. Get a hold of an unmodifed Windows 7 service pack 1 "install.wim" file inside the installation ISO file. Also need a copy of WinPE.iso to install the OS with DISM.EXE (in the WinPE.iso). You should be able to find an install script on the net for install using Dism.exe. Then use Device Manager to install the drivers.
For the os install ISO file (contains install.wim) try searching archive.org "software collections" for windows 7 sp1.

Optionally burn the ISO to DVD and install the more proper way, but that takes longer. You will have a version that works fully for 30 days without key. edited to remove advice on 'activating'. You're smart, you'll know what to do. I can't suggest anything that would violate the rulez.


Otherwise you could embrace Windows 10 and learn its quirks. I couldn't, and immediately hunted down windows 7 ISO file soon after I got my present two boxes. (But I do have Windows 10 handy for when needed)

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 04, 2022, 03:55:23 PM
it's a Dell OptiPlex-[something]. Don't know how to find out stuff about the computer in Windows 10. Or do I need to run someone's utility to do this? (I want model, processor, stepping, etc.)

Normally there is a sticker on the bottom/back of the case. It may even be on the motherboard.
Once that information is in hand, you just enter that in the support page on the Dell site and it will give you all the drivers.

Or try THIS (https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-au/000124353/how-to-find-the-product-model-of-your-dell-computer) from Dell.

Quote from: Shintaro on November 04, 2022, 04:30:55 PM
Normally there is a sticker on the bottom/back of the case. It may even be on the motherboard.
Once that information is in hand, you just enter that in the support page on the Dell site and it will give you all the drivers.

My experience with this is that often, the complete set of drivers no longer available from both Dell and HP for older models. Some drivers only maybe. That's from experience. You may have better luck.

Quote from: zedd151 on November 04, 2022, 04:39:39 PM
My experience with this is that often, the complete set of drivers no longer available from both Dell and HP for older models. Some drivers only maybe. That's from experience. You may have better luck.

That's odd, because I have had the opposite experience.

For example, my Dell Latitude 610 has the drivers as far back as 2005 HERE (https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-au/product-support/product/latitude-d610/drivers)


Then there is the Vogons Driver Library HERE (http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/).

@shintaro hmmm... okay. You obviously had a better experience than me with that or I missed something when I was in need. And the driver library, that's a good tip  :thumbsup: . I hadn't known about that.

Quote from: zedd151 on November 04, 2022, 04:49:28 PM
@shintaro hmmm... okay. You obviously had a better experience than me with that or I missed something when I was in need. And the driver library, that's a good tip  :thumbsup: . I hadn't known about that.

Mate, we all miss things. That's why the forums are here. Someone will always pick up something that is missed.

Just so people know I run Arch Linux and different virtual software (VMware Workstation, Virtualbox, QEMU/KVM), depending on how I find it runs an OS or software the best. So if you think I can help...

I don't particularly like Windows, but the majority of people use it and that is where the jobs are. Actually, I hate all Apple products.

David, hope you not are unlucky finding out non existing drivers for newer hardware
Like I did when replace gfx card on my old xp,because the old one stopped working,only produced garbage on screen,the new one found no xp, drivers xp too old
Good luck

YMMV (https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Windows-7-is-faster-than-Windows-10-for-a-low-end-PC)

Here are benchmarks comparing Win7 to Win10 (https://techenclave.com/threads/windows-10-vs-windows-7-performance-comparison-2021.197172/). The table says Win10 is 3% slower on average, not a big deal; and the author confesses to be a Win7 fan, so he obviously has no incentive to cheat in favour of Win10.

Check https://www.makeuseof.com/windows-10-11-disable-telemetry

The problem with using old hardware with Win 10 is the support.
For example, a video card might not have win10 drivers and Win10 (I think) only supports video cards that are DirectX 9 and above compliant. So you might only get basic functionality.

Maybe, a win 8 driver might work.
In terms of running Win 10 on old hardware, I would strongly suggest de-bloating Win10 (Use the script by Chris Titus). It should free up resources.

If you are using Intel hardware, its often useful to try and get the Intel drivers. On the two Huananzhi boards that have Xeon v3 CPUs installed, I had to rat through the Intel site to find the right drivers for the Xeons and once I got the right ones, all of the missing bits in Device manager disappeared. Funny enough, with the Gigabyte boards, Win10 installed the right drivers for them.

You can still get most stuff with Win10 but Win7 64 is a pain as Microsoft levered the hardware folks to drop Win7 support. Some of them still kept the older stuff but its getting harder to get. I installed my Win7 64 Ultimate and it ran but after being used to Win10, it was very out of date. I could use the Win7 serial to update to Win10 so I did.

I installed Win 7 Pro. on my old Dell computer that was running Windows Vista (I saw in Cmd (Win 6.1). Anyway, I had no trouble installing in several days ago. It is running fine and is now running Vedit text editor without a problem. It needed no drivers or anything that wasn't on the Windows 7 Pro. CD. Tonight, or tomorrow, I'm going to install MASM32 SDK on it and I expect no trouble at all. The old Dell is running an Intel Core 2 Duo processor. I think it is also called a "Centrino". Best of luck to you!

Windows 10/11 collects more information about the user than any previous version of Windows,
and it's impossible to turn it off completely.
After the initial release in 2015, Microsoft faced over two years of massive criticism about what data it covertly collects from both the EU and private entities.
After the initial backlash, they overhauled the privacy settings, introduced new tools which spies even more, and disclosed some of the data they gathered

Win7 must have been the best ever OS from MS...
Very soon it'll die forever as Extended Security Updates (ESU) support alive until January 10, 2023

So I just sent off my order for a Windows 7 "downgrade" (from eBay). Weird: many of the items there include a non-working hard drive that, for some strange reason, they say eBay makes them include in the package. ??? Anyhow, it looks legit, includes a product key, so I should be good to go. If I need drivers I can get them from Dell's web site. (The installation package does include a lot of drivers, so at least I can get up and running.)

Then I can exit Windows 10 hell. I especially hate just the whole look of everything about this OS. For instance, the goddamn scrollbar thumbs are so faint as to be almost invisible. What genius came up with these color schemes up there in Redmond?

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 08, 2022, 12:10:07 PM
Then I can exit Windows 10 hell. I especially hate just the whole look of everything about this OS. For instance, the goddamn scrollbar thumbs are so faint as to be almost invisible. What genius came up with these color schemes up there in Redmond?

Hi NoCforMe,

I agree with you. Win10 is a puppet \ toy operating system.

Quote from: Vortex on November 09, 2022, 04:48:56 AM
Win10 is a puppet \ toy operating system.

"They" also said something similar about Windows xp in that era, when xp first came out. Actually referring to the cartoonish interface.  :biggrin:

I wish I could go back to XP. In my experience that was the most reliable and easy-to-use version of Winoze ever. Too bad.

The only cartoonish thing about it I remember was that stupid paper clip "office assistant" that everyone couldn't turn off soon enough.

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 09, 2022, 05:08:24 AM
I wish I could go back to XP. In my experience that was the most reliable and easy-to-use version of Winoze ever. Too bad.

I still have old AMD xp box,newer gfx card, had dvi to Hdmi cable to my hdtv

Heh; I still have my old Windoze 2000 system set up and running. It's my scanning station (flatbed scanner, film scanner and sound card for analog-to-digital audio transcription). Works great.

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 09, 2022, 05:08:24 AM
I wish I could go back to XP. In my experience that was the most reliable and easy-to-use version of Winoze ever

Wrong! This version is really good (https://youtu.be/YbEYOaO9kp4) :cool:

Out of the oldies, WinNT and the derivative, Win2000 were the ones I liked the best, both very robust industrial OS versions. XP improved on both of them with larger disk capacity and far better facilities and Microsoft had to work hard to force people into using later versions.

Win7 64 bit was a big move forward as it introduced 64 bit to most people interested (even though there was a 64 bit version of XP) and for the era it was introduced, it worked well if a bit overhead heavy with its MAC style interface.

I tend to build computers for a specific OS version and with all of the Win 10 64 bit boxes, this is what I have done. For licencing reasons, I installed my Win7 64 Ultimate on one of the more recent ones but only to use its serial number to install Win 10 over it.

I am no fan of Win 10 but after years of using it and knowing most of the tricks to knacker telemetry, it can be configured to do most things well, as long as you keep turning off the "idiot" features that they try and add to it with updates. Fortunately they are far less regular than they used to be and most of the irritations of Win10 have been fixed.

Now as far as back installing Win 7, it looks like the establishment of the "Old Fuddy Duddies Club" where its members live in a comfortable past that never goes anywhere. There are still folks who live in the world of MS-DOS where time stood still of 1992.

Measuring an OS version with legacy laptops is probably not the way to do it. Any reasonable desktop will eat most laptop alive and they will also run Win10 just fine. My sympathies for any who try and run Win 11. Like Win 10 when it was introduced, it will take years to fully debug it and you are not getting paid for doing this BETA testing for Microsoft.

Quote from: hutch-- on November 09, 2022, 08:24:22 AMMy sympathies for any who try and run Win 11.

Windows 11 22H2 is super broken (https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/windows-11-22h2-is-super-broken.300186/) (two weeks ago)

Quoteevery 2-3rd boot is extremely slow and Windows runs in ~5 FPS and takes minutes to just open a folder until restart.
File Copy to my external Samsung 870 Evo takes almost twice as long as before (write performance tanks non stop)
VLC Player is broken and crashes very often.
the new task manager shows an empty window with zero programs running.
New Explorer with the new tab system crashes randomly when opening new tabs.
the whole PC crashes randomly in games, at idle, under load (or freezes with sound still running)
cursor gets stuck for 3-4 seconds.
Second Monitor is "still there" even after using Windows + P to only use my main monitor.
my printer does not work anymore.

Quote from: hutch-- on November 09, 2022, 08:24:22 AM
Now as far as back installing Win 7, it looks like the establishment of the "Old Fuddy Duddies Club" where its members live in a comfortable past that never goes anywhere.

That's me. Guilty as charged. I don't want it to go anywhere.

Win11 isn't terrible if you remove all the crap. https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/windows-11-tweaks-for-gpu-benchmark.287480/
"Fullscreen optimizations" still need to be turned off manually and no taskbar combine option  is annoying.

Quote from: InfiniteLoop on November 09, 2022, 05:05:14 PMhttps://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/windows-11-tweaks-for-gpu-benchmark.287480/

That's ridiculously geeky. I'll wait some years until M$ have sorted out the problems with Win11.

Both AMD and Intel have recently produced some very fast CPUs but unfortunately they run like furnaces but I get the impression that over time they both will get that under control, perhaps better technology or better cooling or both.

Now by the time Microsoft get Win11 reliable and not p*ssing off end users, it may be viable to use Win11 or 12 or whatever but currently they are playing games like insisting on a board late enough to have the trusted platform module and a CPU to match which shuts the door to most of the earlier stuff.

None of my socket 2011-3 CPUs will run it and I am not vaguely interested in hacks to bypass it so with Win10 working very well, I am in no hurry to test Win11. I just have to suffer 4 x Xeon CPUs, 2 x 12 cores and 2 x 14 cores that both peak at 3.6 gig. My trusty old i7 clocked at 4 gig is no slouch and its a great dev box so no hurry here.

Luckily Intel will have these soon:
https://uk.pcmag.com/processors/132419/intels-7nm-pc-chip-will-arrive-in-2023-using-tsmcs-tech (https://uk.pcmag.com/processors/132419/intels-7nm-pc-chip-will-arrive-in-2023-using-tsmcs-tech)

Quote from: hutch-- on November 09, 2022, 08:35:20 PMBoth AMD and Intel have recently produced some very fast CPUs but unfortunately they run like furnaces but I get the impression that over time they both will get that under control, perhaps better technology or better cooling or both.

Regarding the AMD processors, you can limit the TDP to 105W or 65W without too much loss in performance.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17585/amd-zen-4-ryzen-9-7950x-and-ryzen-5-7600x-review-retaking-the-high-end/20 (https://www.anandtech.com/show/17585/amd-zen-4-ryzen-9-7950x-and-ryzen-5-7600x-review-retaking-the-high-end/20)

QuoteRestricting our Ryzen 9 7950X processor to just 65 W in comparison to leaving power settings untouched, the CineBench R23's multi-threaded test performance is impressive, a score of just over 31K. For comparison, the Intel Core i9-12900K only managed just under 27K at default settings, which shows that even when restricting the power proportionally down to 65 W, there's still plenty of performance available in multi-threaded situations. For reference, restricting the Ryzen 9 7950X to 65W only loses around 18-19% in CB23 MT performance; very impressive.

In the single-threaded test with CineBench R23, we only saw a drop of around 0.3%, which is negligible depending on the workload. Dropping down the overall TDP isn't as harsh on single-threaded workloads as it will be for multi-threaded workloads. ST performance remains intact mainly despite restricting overall power consumption.

Hutch it's rerun win 10 ->win 11 too hard high cpu demand for me,my amd xp box to Win7, adds weakness of be one step behind in SSE generation
But assembler programming might end up advantage the day maybe cpp 2030 something needs latest cpp runtime to run, that requires win11, but asm don't?

Some of this site oldies have supported all OS systems from beginning of personal computers.
We have seen many kind of OS systems.
I worked in IT and industrial automation and we have to support all systems in factories.
Some of us even remember QNX and first Compaq 386 (SX) :smiley:
Those who hoarders, have those old things in their storage.
How many remember Schneider tower 286 ?
(https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Schneider-Tower-CPU-286-REV4B-Top.jpg)

Quote from: TimoVJL on November 10, 2022, 03:25:07 AM
Those who hoarders, have those old things in their storage.

I have stopped hoarding 7 stationary PC's years ago,I prefer less space laptops now,also lighter to move away from table,to instead serve guests drinks,cakes,food or liquer
also multicore laptops replace several old onecore towers in a 3d render animation network I had+one linux webserver+one PC control things with printer port
one bad thing its easy to wreck a laptop compared to a tower,already wrecked two times:(
also 2 android tablets even lighter and smaller than laptops,two programmable calculators

So Intel just prepares for 7nm and at the same time AMD will hit 4 nm in next year?...  :dazzled:

With real oldies, I still have my first 486 DX CPU and board, it cost me so much money back about 1990 that I did not have the heart to chuck it out. Also an ESDI 300 meg HDD the size of a housebrick that never failed but the ESDI controller did and they were rarer than hens teeth.

None of the rest survived, the oldest box I have that has not been plugged in for some years is an XP box with a 3.8 gig PIV. It was a nice box to use but I shifted to Win7 64 shortly after so it was in good nick but useless.

Quote from: hutch-- on November 09, 2022, 08:35:20 PM
I just have to suffer 4 x Xeon CPUs, 2 x 12 cores and 2 x 14 cores that both peak at 3.6 gig. My trusty old i7 clocked at 4 gig is no slouch and its a great dev box so no hurry here.

Y'know, maybe I'm naive or something, but I just don't get it: why the obsession with processor speed here? What are you doing there in Oz: global weather simulations, perhaps, or maybe a Cray emulation, trying to break blockchain codes, something else equally processor-intensive? I mean, unless you're doing computations like that regularly, what difference does it really make how fast your computah is?

If the answer is "because I think fast computers are cool" then I guess I can accept that. Otherwise, I really don't see the point.

Most of us have computers that are so woefully overkill for what we actually use them for that it's not even funny. (I guess I forgot about games, but since you didn't mention that I'm not sure that's one of your uses. And then of course there's the overclocker crowd. Is overclocking still a thing, btw?)

I've always said that the lowly '386 is one of the most underrated and under-used machines that mankind has ever produced. Just think of the piles of 'em, sitting on shelves or in bins.

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 11, 2022, 12:57:21 PMwhy the obsession with processor speed here?

Good question! Speed-wise, we should be the most relaxed nerds of the World, given that our code is typically a factor 2-3 faster than equivalent C/C++ code :bgrin:

 :biggrin:

There is speed and there is speed, having the fastest Messagebox() on the planet may generate all of the fanfare of a gnat breaking wind but measure you task in hours and speed gains are meaningful. Each to their own but in my case I process a lot of 4k video and if there are a couple of hundred clips, they can take hours to process.

My old overclocked 6 core dev box can do a few in a reasonable time but with big quantities, that is what I have a couple of 14 core Xeons for.

If someone can live with 286 performance, best of luck to them but its a small, old and slow world where you cannot do much and most people want to do more, much more and you need grunt to do that and the more grunt you have, the faster you can do things.

I could routinely do my email on Win95 OEM on what I think was a Pentuim 1 or 2 with no problems and many do simple things like that now with a smart phone but do anything large that takes a long time and speed becomes your friend.

Quote from: hutch-- on November 11, 2022, 05:22:09 PMin my case I process a lot of 4k video and if there are a couple of hundred clips, they can take hours to process.

Your problem is that your video software was not written with the Masm32 SDK :tongue:

I doubt I would live long enough to write an alternative to ffmpeg.  :tongue:

Most of the tools I use are 64 bit MASM but they are only to control ffmpeg options.

You would love the performance of the 14 core Xeons.  :biggrin:

@NoCforMe
Computer 3d art and animation, I need all the speed I can get
But similar to fewer clock cycles is faster,so is lowpoly ca 500 polys fighter jets 3d models
Interest born from make my own tiles, sprites
Historically optimize speed was born out of necessity when few MHz cpu was doing everything without any 3d gpu accelerated hardware
And we just continued make fast code,long after we started on z80,6502,68000,286...

Quote from: jj2007 on November 11, 2022, 01:18:53 PM

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 11, 2022, 12:57:21 PMwhy the obsession with processor speed here?

Good question! Speed-wise, we should be the most relaxed nerds of the World, given that our code is typically a factor 2-3 faster than equivalent C/C++ code :bgrin:

Need for Speed - C++ versus Assembly Language (https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1182676/Need-for-Speed-Cplusplus-versus-Assembly-Language)

Quote from: TimoVJL on November 11, 2022, 10:49:26 PMNeed for Speed - C++ versus Assembly Language (https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1182676/Need-for-Speed-Cplusplus-versus-Assembly-Language)

http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=5650.msg60101#msg60101 (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=5650.msg60101#msg60101)
http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=6163.0 (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=6163.0)

aw27 alias José A. Pascoa: I updated the article "Need for Speed - C++ versus Assembly Language", now it includes C# and Free Pascal on the run as well. Now, ASM wins hands down in both cases, particularly for C# (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=6163.msg65879#msg65879)

Besides, picking one particular isolated problem to demonstrate that one language is superior to another is nonsense. You need a sophisticated benchmark procedure comprising float and integer match, string creation and handling, parsing, sorting and much more to demonstrate anything useful.

 :tongue: :thumbsup:

jj
I don't get it, the programs all use assembly helper code, it would be a more interesting comparison if the high level languages didn't use asm, or perhaps they have the use of asm as an option?

Quote from: TimoVJL on November 11, 2022, 10:49:26 PM
[]Need for Speed - C++ versus Assembly Language (https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1182676/Need-for-Speed-Cplusplus-versus-Assembly-Language)

I have to wonder about the impact of timings on code as highlighted by Michael Abrash (Zen of Assembly).
Abrash seemed to fix the Windows NT Device Driver code using methods like timing.
Is it still worth thinking about with modern CPU's?
Also, there is the bias of comparing MS VS 2015 with JWASM last release by Japheth 2014? Comparing a team vs a single person.

Perhaps a more fair comparison is to compare the code with MS VS 2013.

 :biggrin:

Quote
Besides, picking one particular isolated problem to demonstrate that one language is superior to another is nonsense. You need a sophisticated benchmark procedure comprising float and integer match, string creation and handling, parsing, sorting and much more to demonstrate anything useful.

This is spot on, digging up some obscure technical problem and waxing lyrical about some language or another is nonsense. Then there is the skill of the operator with 2 or more languages and no garrantee that either is good enough to do a comparison.

Just as an example, there are times when an OOP language produces some very fast code but as usual, when you look under the hood, its good old fashioned procedural code that has been highly optimised over a longer period. Then there is the less than highly skilled analysis of the internals of compiler generated code where in reality, obscurity by the compiler designer is the factor for its layout.

Yet another factor is the absolute algorithm design, I have as an example, a Sedgewick / Bentley sort that is very fast built with a compiler and apart from porting it to 32 bit MASM and PowerBASIC as well as 64 bit MASM, nothing would make it any faster. Wasted a lot of time trying to manually optimise it by kicking the guts out of it and they all produced the same timings. Effectively, an algorithm optimised by design.

We used to hear this bullsh*t that good compiler code would beat (in speed terms) poor assembler code but such nonsense is applicable to any pair of binary languages.

Good ............ with beat bad ............ in speed terms. Just fill in the blanks for any pair of languages.

I always liked AW27, a clever guy who wrote decent code and knew enough about assembler to at least make some comparison, but the comparison was as good as the example chosen.

Well, to get this topic back on track, I'm sitting here typing on my "new" Windows 7 computah. Installation went relatively straightforward; only bump was a loooooong (~30 min.) wait on the last part of the "finishing up" phase, where I started to think the installation code was hung.

But after installation the fun starts. This is only the second time I've done a clean "out-of-the-box" Windows install (last time was W2K, when I had help from techies at my company), so I didn't realize how not-ready-to-use the OS would be after installation.

First rude surprise was that I couldn't load a single goddamn website with IE, which was the only browser installed, even though there was nothing wrong with my internet connection. Well, I got a clue the trouble was IE or internet settings when I found I could load some Micro$oft sites (MSN news, for one). Turned out the problem wasn't even internet settings: it was program authorization settings that had to be changed. So then I went to Dell's web site to download drivers. However, because internet stuff was still messed up, even though I could get to most sites, the site didn't render properly; apparently didn't load CSS or Java or something, so it was unusable. (This was with Opera, my preferred browser.) It wasn't until I installed Firefox that I was able to access sites properly.

Well, Dell was pretty much a bust. They do have a whole shitload of drivers available; almost all of them failed to install for one reason or another. I did get a couple system upgrades that they said were crucial, and things seem to be running fine in any case, but that was disappointing. (I guess that's what you get when you try to get stuff for a 12-year-old OS, huh?)

So long story short, everything's fine, well, except for Opera, which complains about privacy issues on about half the sites I access (not this one, interestingly, even though it's flagged as "Not secure"). Hopefully I'll find the tweak(s) needed to fix this. I've been through all the internet options with no luck yet.

Anyhow, it's good to be back on 7 and not on that horrible 10. Now I've just got to reinstall every damn piece of software I use ...

BTW, I bought the DVD on eBay, and the seller ("zhou_pc", Chinese guy) is one of the good ones. He sent along a one-page info sheet about how to solve some common installation problems, writes really clear concise English and seems to know his stuff. Wish more sellers were like him.

When you do install all your essential software, make sure to make a backup image of the OS in that clean state, before adding non essential things. This way, you'll always have a clean ready to use OS in case anything goes sideways in the future. And if you need to tweak settings or whatever afterward make a backup of that as well.
I keep a clean backup of OS and only drivers. Another with essential software included, yet another without added browser in case I want to change the web browser in the future without uninstalling one and removing all the leftover crap (after browser uninstall)

I also recommend keeping projects, documents anything personal on a drive other than where windows is installed, so no need for transferring all that if need to do a restore from backup. In other words plan ahead in case some sort of catastrophe strikes

David,

I did a clean install of Win7 64 Ultimate a bit under a year ago and got it to work OK by getting the service pack that I had archived to update it. Hunted around for any other drivers I could find, some archived and some from vendor sites, and it all worked OK.

With a number of properly set up Win10 64 Pro boxes, I had a direct comparison and Win7 64 set up properly was old and it looked like it.

With a smaller computer like an older laptop, you can turn off the MAC interface on Win7, remove any unwanted junk, make sure you have all of the right drivers and you should be able to get it going OK. Have a look at the Intel site for the correct drivers if they still have them available, the OEM site may be able to help you as well.

I think I'm good so far as drivers go. By "OEM" you mean the computer mfr., right? As I wrote, I went to Dell's driver site, only to find that almost none of them would actually load; most said they weren't compatible with my system. But everything seems to be working fine: video, audio, network connectivity.

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 14, 2022, 02:39:06 PM
I think I'm good so far as drivers go. By "OEM" you mean the computer mfr., right? As I wrote, I went to Dell's driver site, only to find that almost none of them would actually load; most said they weren't compatible with my system. But everything seems to be working fine: video, audio, network connectivity.

Have you installed the Service Pack HERE (https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB976932).
Maybe the drivers require SP1 as a minimum.

Already got SP1, thanks (the DVD had it).

I have a VM with Windows 7 ultimate x64 and I still get updates, especially for defender, so I would recommend that you get the ultimate edition

Are there any (un)official post SP1 W7 update package (11 years accumulated in one installer)?

Quote from: jack on November 15, 2022, 12:25:38 AM
I have a VM with Windows 7 ultimate x64 and I still get updates, especially for defender, so I would recommend that you get the ultimate edition

No. I am not about to do yet another OS install at this point. I'm down to one annoying problem (apparently due to screwed up certificate handling by Opera, which probably has nothing to do with the OS), so no thanks. I can live without Micro$oft's updates, thank you very much.

Quote from: greenozon on November 15, 2022, 12:33:57 AM
Are there any (un)official post SP1 W7 update package (11 years accumulated in one installer)?

You just need to search for Windows 7 Rollup.
There is one HERE (https://www.techpowerup.com/download/microsoft-windows-7-convenience-rollup-cr/). but as it is not MS....caveat emptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor)

So that "roll-up" (never heard that term applied to other than rolling joints before) includes, what? every update, patch, "oops" that Micr$oft issued for Win7 since SP1?

And it's only 8.9 TB!

What, if anything, in that horrid mess would I actually need? I really don't care about "chrome" updates (ones that make transparency effects better, or whooshing opening and closing animations, or other such nonsense). Security updates? I've got antivirus going (AVG, the least bad one I've used so far), so do I really need them?

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 15, 2022, 11:23:48 AM
So that "roll-up" (never heard that term applied to other than rolling joints before) includes, what? every update, patch, "oops" that Micr$oft issued for Win7 since SP1?

And it's only 8.9 TB!

What, if anything, in that horrid mess would I actually need? I really don't care about "chrome" updates (ones that make transparency effects better, or whooshing opening and closing animations, or other such nonsense). Security updates? I've got antivirus going (AVG, the least bad one I've used so far), so do I really need them?

Ah, mate, that's the total download for everyone that has downloaded it.

The actual downloads are:

476.9 Mb Win 7 (64 Bit)

316 Mb Win 7 (32 Bit)

Oops ... probably ought to read what's written there next time ...

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 15, 2022, 12:12:43 PM
Oops ... probably ought to read what's written there next time ...

All good mate.  :thumbsup:
We are all here to help each other.
I screw up on a daily basis.

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 15, 2022, 11:23:48 AMSo that "roll-up" (never heard that term applied to other than rolling joints before)

Roll your own type cigarettes too.  :tongue:
When you still want to smoke cigarettes but don't want to pay a load of taxes to buy a pack ($13 dollars in Chicago two years ago) versus $5 dollars for a pouch of (Bugler and others) tobacco and rolling papers. You can get up to 30 (skinny) smokes out of it.  :biggrin:


To be on topic, I never used or needed anything other than plain old Windows 7 (with service pack 1) no updates thank you very much. And using Opera is a pain in the arse sometimes with their refusal to open some webpages unless clicking on "Proceed to....". Others it refuses to load at all. I'm kinda used to it anymore.

Quote from: zedd151 on November 15, 2022, 12:22:39 PM
Roll your own type cigarettes too.  :tongue:
When you still want to smoke cigarettes but don't want to pay a shitload of taxes to buy a pack ($13 dollars in Chicago two years ago) versus $5 dollars for a pouch of (Bugler and others) tobacco and rolling papers. You can get up to 30 (skinny) smokes out of it.  :biggrin:

I think tobacco in Australia is now something crazy like $80 or $100 AUD. I have never smoked, but every now and then I'll look just to see the financial bullet that I missed.

Quote from: zedd151 on November 15, 2022, 12:22:39 PM
[To be on topic, I never used or needed anything other than plain old Windows 7 (with service pack 1) no updates thank you very much. And using Opera is a pain in the arse sometimes with their refusal to open some webpages unless clicking on "Proceed to....". Others it refuses to load at all. I'm kinda used to it anymore.

Guessing...If the web pages are not loading that might be to do with SSL encryption.

But also some AV (Anti-virus) software create a proxy, so that the web pages pass through a filter, to protect you (so they say), and then are displayed in the browser.

Also, not having any patches on the system after SP1 could open you up to an automated attack where your computer becomes part of a bot network, if the computer is directly connected to the Internet.

Quote from: zedd151 on November 15, 2022, 12:22:39 PMAnd using Opera is a pain in the arse sometimes with their refusal to open some webpages unless clicking on "Proceed to....". Others it refuses to load at all. I'm kinda used to it anymore.

OK, this is exactly the problem I'm having. See attached screen capture. You seem to be familiar with this problem. (Ironically, it happens on every single Micro$oft site I try to visit, but never on this site or others that it flags as "Not secure". And if you try to go somewhere anyway, chances are you'll get a screwed up view of the site: no images, or it won't load stylesheets or Javascript and the site'll be completely crippled.)

The thing is, Opera doesn't necessarily have to suffer this issue. On my previous computer with Windows 7, Opera never gave me grief over this. It worked fine. There's some setting, either in the OS (Internet Explorer has the same issue on my system) or in Opera itself that's causing the problem. From a little online searching, the issue seems to be with site certificates, which Opera is rejecting as invalid. So I need to find out what settings are screwed up and fix them. Anyone here have any clues?

(And oddly, Firefox works fine. I don't like FF though.)

Edited = Language

Try this HERE (https://forums.opera.com/topic/39692/net-err_cert_authority_invalid-error-in-opera-stable-and-opera-gx/3)

Root certificate error KB is HERE. (https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/topic/support-for-urgent-trusted-root-updates-for-windows-root-certificate-program-in-windows-a4ac4d6c-7c62-3b6e-dfd2-377982bf3ea5)

I just installed Google Chrome browser (again) and it does not behave as Opera does. The sites I have tried it on all load fine, without any issues. I like Opera too; but since I am tired of those certificate issues I think I'll keep using Chrome until Opera's development team gets their sh!t together.  :undecided:  Oh, and by installing Chrome I DO NOT HAVE TO INSTALL ANY FURTHER UPDATE packages.  :biggrin:  ... Now on to make a new OS backup with Chrome as the default browser.  :sad:

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 15, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
On my previous computer with Windows 7, Opera never gave me grief over this. It worked fine....

Do you remember the version number (The one that worked) by any chance? But then again, I'm not sure if older versions are still available. I've given up on twiddling Operas settings trying to find a solution there. But still could be a setting that needs tweaking, I just haven't found it yet.  :tongue:

Quote from: Shintaro on November 15, 2022, 01:02:08 PM

Try this HERE (https://forums.opera.com/topic/39692/net-err_cert_authority_invalid-error-in-opera-stable-and-opera-gx/3)

Root certificate error KB is HERE. (https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/topic/support-for-urgent-trusted-root-updates-for-windows-root-certificate-program-in-windows-a4ac4d6c-7c62-3b6e-dfd2-377982bf3ea5)

Bingo! Works fine now. I owe you one. Bottle of scotch? some reefers?

So I guess I did need at least one Windows update ...

Quote from: zedd151 on November 15, 2022, 02:26:42 PM
I've given up on twiddling Operas settings trying to find a solution there. But still could be a setting that needs tweaking, I just haven't found it yet.  :tongue:

See Shintaro's solution above. It's what you need.

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 15, 2022, 03:28:09 PM

Quote from: Shintaro on November 15, 2022, 01:02:08 PM

Try this HERE (https://forums.opera.com/topic/39692/net-err_cert_authority_invalid-error-in-opera-stable-and-opera-gx/3)

Root certificate error KB is HERE. (https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/topic/support-for-urgent-trusted-root-updates-for-windows-root-certificate-program-in-windows-a4ac4d6c-7c62-3b6e-dfd2-377982bf3ea5)

Bingo! Works fine now. I owe you one. Bottle of scotch? some reefers?

So I guess I did need at least one Windows update ...

All good mate, so long as it works.  :thumbsup:

Now to improve your browsing experience, have a look at "Slimjet". A clone of Chrome without the telemetry. genuinely fast and it worked on Win7 64.

Quote from: Shintaro on November 15, 2022, 09:54:13 AM

Quote from: greenozon on November 15, 2022, 12:33:57 AMAre there any (un)official post SP1 W7 update package (11 years accumulated in one installer)?

You just need to search for Windows 7 Rollup.
There is one HERE (https://www.techpowerup.com/download/microsoft-windows-7-convenience-rollup-cr/). but as it is not MS....caveat emptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor)

thanks! is it the same stuff as officially proposed by MS though?

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/convenience-rollup-update-for-windows-7-sp1-and-windows-server-2008-r2-sp1-da9b2435-2a1c-e7fa-43f5-6bfb34767d65 (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/convenience-rollup-update-for-windows-7-sp1-and-windows-server-2008-r2-sp1-da9b2435-2a1c-e7fa-43f5-6bfb34767d65)

Quote from: greenozon on November 15, 2022, 06:23:41 PM

Quote from: Shintaro on November 15, 2022, 09:54:13 AM

Quote from: greenozon on November 15, 2022, 12:33:57 AM
Are there any (un)official post SP1 W7 update package (11 years accumulated in one installer)?

You just need to search for Windows 7 Rollup.
There is one HERE (https://www.techpowerup.com/download/microsoft-windows-7-convenience-rollup-cr/). but as it is not MS....caveat emptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor)

thanks! is it the same stuff as officially proposed by MS though?

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/convenience-rollup-update-for-windows-7-sp1-and-windows-server-2008-r2-sp1-da9b2435-2a1c-e7fa-43f5-6bfb34767d65 (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/convenience-rollup-update-for-windows-7-sp1-and-windows-server-2008-r2-sp1-da9b2435-2a1c-e7fa-43f5-6bfb34767d65)

Yea, they look the same.

Quote from: greenozon on November 15, 2022, 06:23:41 PM
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/convenience-rollup-update-for-windows-7-sp1-and-windows-server-2008-r2-sp1-da9b2435-2a1c-e7fa-43f5-6bfb34767d65

I wonder what happens if I apply that one to my running Win7-64 :rolleyes:

Remember those telemetry things
https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-boosts-remote-data-collection-windows-7-and-8 (https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-boosts-remote-data-collection-windows-7-and-8)

Thanks for that. I always wonder when my computah is phoning home behind my back ...

David,

This may be useful to you.

https://winaero.com/winaero-tweaker/#download (https://winaero.com/winaero-tweaker/#download)

There are others dedicated to turning off telemetry. I just forget which ones. Just be careful of what you change with tools of this type.

Quote from: TimoVJL on November 15, 2022, 10:06:19 PMRemember those telemetry things
https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-boosts-remote-data-collection-windows-7-and-8 (https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-boosts-remote-data-collection-windows-7-and-8)

Inserted via update. Of course in the guise of a security feature. No thanks.
And you'd wonder why I despise installing any more updates to windows 7. There is a good reason.  :tongue:
As far as windows 10/11 if you have to turn a whole load of crap off....   :rolleyes:

Quote from: zedd151 on November 16, 2022, 01:43:08 AM

Quote from: TimoVJL on November 15, 2022, 10:06:19 PMRemember those telemetry things
https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-boosts-remote-data-collection-windows-7-and-8 (https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-boosts-remote-data-collection-windows-7-and-8)

Inserted via update. Of course in the guise of a security feature. No thanks.
And you'd wonder why I despise installing any more updates to windows 7. There is a good reason.  :tongue:
As far as windows 10/11 if you have to turn a whole load of crap off....   :rolleyes:

Like latest crt for 2022?

OK, very small detail for Windows 7: I changed my text font size (in Control Panel→All Control Panel Items→Display) to 130% for mo' betta appearance. It made for nice text in all applications except for my own, which had fuzzy-looking text. Then I checked the "Use Windows XP style DPI scaling", which made everything look good.

Phew! I figure I'm about 95% of the way there.

Quote from: zedd151 on November 16, 2022, 01:43:08 AM

Quote from: TimoVJL on November 15, 2022, 10:06:19 PM
Remember those telemetry things
https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-boosts-remote-data-collection-windows-7-and-8 (https://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-boosts-remote-data-collection-windows-7-and-8)

Inserted via update. Of course in the guise of a security feature. No thanks.
And you'd wonder why I despise installing any more updates to windows 7. There is a good reason.  :tongue:
As far as windows 10/11 if you have to turn a whole shiteload of crap off....   :rolleyes:

Yep, Microsoft has always done that, I think it started in Win95.

So I would turn something off on a customer's machine to fix it, and then a couple of weeks later the problem would come back, like magic. :biggrin:

I have been a support tech in different capacities over the years, even though I really don't like windows, but crap like that used to keep me in a job.

Even their certs were BS. I used to hold them in high regard, then a 16 year old kid got the MCSE (Microsoft Certified System Engineer). And that was one of the times I realised pieces of paper were largely pointless.

There are a ton of anti-telemetry apps out there. I have used a few different ones over time but you need to learn what to turn off and what not to turn off. If you have the app set up properly, you can just run it again every so often to solve update overwrites.

To "decrap" Windows, get the free Revo Uninstaller. You can get rid of a mountain of chyte by selectively using it.

I often see. Net updates come to Windows 10
Ok I have tested many things that can be used in vs,c# for example
But if don't need. Net for example
I am also curious if w7 is too old for vc 2017 I written need crt 2015?

this is so lovely!!!!!!  is windows becoming youtube showing tons of stupid ads????

Microsoft is showing ads in .... https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-is-showing-ads-in-the-windows-11-sign-out-menu/ (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-is-showing-ads-in-the-windows-11-sign-out-menu/)

Quote from: greenozon on November 17, 2022, 07:06:34 AM
this is so lovely!!!!!!  is windows becoming youtube showing tons of stupid ads???

:biggrin:  Well they do have a captive crowd. So, why not.  :tongue:  Seems to be a growing trend to find advertising in places that you would least expect.  :badgrin:

The thing that drives me nuts is every phuking site I buy from has a popup wanting all of your details. Some sites will not work if you don't fill in the details so I have a perfect technique for them, I buy things from someone else. Information is money and I don't give it to some company that I owe nothing to.

Quote from: daydreamer on November 16, 2022, 10:23:33 PM

I am also curious if w7 is too old for vc 2017 I written need crt 2015?

You could install any VC redist (2010-12-13-15-17-19-22) and run any modern app on W7
until... you hit the missed  api_ms_win_xxx.dll    ... there are hundreds of these... a new modern design by MS :)
I strongly believe this is a marketing step to throw away old win users and kick them towards modern crap 10/11/etc

I'm 99.65% of the way done with my "downgrade" to W7. All my applications are working, email, web, all good.

Just one remaining annoying problem: I've been futzing around with the display settings trying to get things to look decent. Everything's OK except for one thing: fuzzy text in applications (not in "Windows text", like title-bar text). See attached pic below. This is my editor program, but it's the same with everything else I run: notice how the title-bar text is nice and clear but everything else is ... fuzzy. (And it's not only text: some toolbar icons are also fuzzy.)

The web browser I use (Opera) doesn't exhibit this problem at all. Presumably it uses a different method of displaying text. It's all clear.

I've messed with the display text settings, but no luck. All I've found is at Control Panel→ All Control Panel Items→ Display→ Set custom text size (DPI). This gives you the choice of setting the text size as a percentage of "normal size" (whatever that is???); I have it set at 140%. It also has a checkbox item, "Use Windows XP style DPI scaling", which if I check it messes up the sizes of icons (way too small), so that's unchecked.

I should tell you also that I have the display set at its highest possible resolution, 1600x1200. I really don't want to reduce this resolution if possible.

So why do I have fuzzy text and how do I fix it? I know there are some other display settings scattered here and there in Windows 7, like "Smooth edges of screen fonts" in System Properties→ Advanced→ Performance→ Settings, which makes things look horrible if unchecked. Are there other settings hidden away in some other nooks or crannies I should know about?

David,

What is the native resolution of your monitor (assuming that it is a flatscreen) ?

I normally run 1920 x 1080 monitors and I always set the screen resolution to the native monitor resolution and I get sharp text display.

I'm not sure; how do I determine the "native resolution"? I thought that would be the highest possible res, which I'm pretty sure I have set.

BTW, I'm almost certain that this isn't a hardware problem at all; it has to do with whatever method Windows uses to display what I'm calling "non-Windows text"; not a technically correct term but meaning "user-displayed" text, like in my RichEdit control. Notice also that even the menu text here is blurry.

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 28, 2022, 10:14:54 AMSet custom text size (DPI). This gives you the choice of setting the text size as a percentage of "normal size" (whatever that is???); I have it set at 140%.

The system may have difficulties to interpolate e.g. 12 pixels * 1.4 -> 16.8 pixels. Try 125% (->15px) or 150% (->18px).

I don't think that's it; no matter what percentage I pick it's still fuzzy.

And why would some text be clear as day and other text fuzzy anyhow?

David,

I would be inclined to start again. Using your desktop settings, see what the maximum resolution is available and set it to that. Then start with the default sized fonts without scaling and see what they look like. If you need the fonts to be bigger, use TTF fonts and set the sizes you require. Generally flat screen only look OK at their native resolution, set them to any other size and they look like crap.

Using a percentage scaling increase, wrecks some of the standard displays of text as they end up too big and bits get cut off. Avoid it if you can. TTF or OTF fonts display well if you get it right

Given that it is an old PC, I would check the cable and connection at both ends. If there is corrosion, it will interfere with the quality of the signal.

And lastly, the refresh rate of the monitor.

No. IT IS NOT A HARDWARE PROBLEM!

Take my word for it. How could it be a hardware problem if some of the text is clear and some isn't?

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 28, 2022, 03:20:56 PM
No. IT IS NOT A HARDWARE PROBLEM!

Take my word for it. How could it be a hardware problem if some of the text is clear and some isn't?

Then I would say it is your font library as has been mentioned.
Some apps use particular fonts.
Strange, normally an equivalent font is ok. But perhaps not. But then again it is Windows, so anything is possible.
Is there anything showing in your logs?
Maybe someone here can remember the name of the utility that showed the resources that a Windows exe used? Resource manager from Visual Studio or Sysinternals?? It would tell what the app what font amount other things.
Did you find the latest drivers for your video card?
I am thinking maybe you need to run a system information tool. Because I hate guessing.

You're grasping at straws, my friend.

This is a fresh install of Windows 7, but I'm using exactly the same set of fonts I was before. With no problems.

It's obviously a difference in how Windows is rendering text under certain circumstances. (What those circumstances are I have no idea.) If I change the font my editor uses to display text (through a RichEdit control), they still look fuzzy. But the title bar of the application is clear as a bell.

So no, not font corruption. Not bad connections on my monitor. Nothing to do w/refresh rate or anything like that. The text I'm looking at as I type this reply is perfectly clear. But even the text in Word (a Microsoft creation) is fuzzy. All except for window and dialog captions, which are clear.

Just to remind all what the problem is, see pic below. Notice how clear the text ("Replace Text") is in the title bar, compared to all the rest of the text in the dialog. So please forget about display device drivers: the hardware is perfectly capable of displaying clear text.

Yep, time to stop guessing.
I'll post soon with some instructions on gathering information.

I am thinking you should start a new thread though.

In the meantime have a look at THIS. (https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/topic/fonts-appear-blurry-in-my-apps-848d03b0-b3a7-ca0d-ba53-ab322eaa0287)

Aaaaaaargh.

I did check that link you gave: thanks for that. Most of it I've already tried and was useless, except for this bit:

Quote
Check your font size

If your current font size or dots per inch (DPI) is set to larger than 100%, text and other items on the screen may appear blurry in programs that are not designed for high-DPI display. To fix this problem, set the font size to 100% to see whether the font looks clearer.

This seems to be the problem. Trouble is, if I set the font size to 100% it's waaaaaay too small. Teeny tiny. Unreadable.

I tried reducing monitor resolution, next step down (1280x1024). Things looked better, but the damn taskbar was below the screen!!! Couldn't access it. Forget that.

I was able to get things looking pretty much OK @ 125% font size, except that with that "Use Windows XP style DPI scaling" thing checked, font placement was screwy in some apps. So I'm at 125% with fuzzy text for now.

I have a couple of ideas.
But run: msinfo32.exe
Then Files-> Save As <some name>.nfo
Add the nfo file to a zip and post it.

Quote from: NoCforMe on November 28, 2022, 05:28:01 PM

I tried reducing monitor resolution, next step down (1280x1024). Things looked better, but the damn taskbar was below the screen!!! Couldn't access it. Forget that.

I was able to get things looking pretty much OK @ 125% font size, except that with that "Use Windows XP style DPI scaling" thing checked, font placement was screwy in some apps. So I'm at 125% with fuzzy text for now.

For the taskbar problem: The monitors I have seen have a 'Auto Adjust' function accessed by menu using buttons on front of monitor, assuming you are not using an ancient CRT monitor. That should help to center the screen and sharpen the focus as well. Then perhaps setting a lower resolution would yield better results.

Hi,

   I will say that I have used 'Auto Adjust' to fix things when
some screen content is out of view.  Handy feature at times.

Regards,

Steve N.

Quote from: zedd151 on November 28, 2022, 08:29:54 PM
For the taskbar problem: The monitors I have seen have a 'Auto Adjust' function accessed by menu using buttons on front of monitor, assuming you are not using an ancient CRT monitor. That should help to center the screen and sharpen the focus as well. Then perhaps setting a lower resolution would yield better results.

No. Doesn't work. My monitor indeed has an on-screen adjustment menu, but even with the vertical position maxxed out it won't show the taskbar. I have no idea how to fix that problem, so I just went back to the higher res.

Could it be that I shouldn't be using that higher resolution? that that's what's causing all the trouble? At that resolution and with "normal" text size (100%) selected, everything on screen is just too damn small. I though the OS would simply do scaling based on the normal rendered size of things, but maybe not?

Last year, My monitor is a 43inch 720p TV....
This year my notebook pc have a 17inch 1080p screen
My sister have a 4.3inch 4k phone, unbelievable

when do we start using 8K devices? :)

any avx 256bit or avx 512bit,restriction if I want code for something that still work with w7?

I thought of philosophical question,if a 90year old with very bad eyesight goes into a electronics store salesman convince him to buy latest 8k tv,but when comes home and play 8k tv on it ,too bad sight to notice the difference between old tv so s/he is fooled by salesman
isnt that a probable thing that gonna happen to people ? :tongue:

Yet another sad news...
https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/185534985/sunsetting-support-for-windows-7-8-8-1-in-early-2023?hl=en (https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/185534985/sunsetting-support-for-windows-7-8-8-1-in-early-2023?hl=en)

my Chrome freeze at 104...

Quote from: greenozon on November 30, 2022, 05:18:01 AM
Yet another sad news...
https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/185534985/sunsetting-support-for-windows-7-8-8-1-in-early-2023?hl=en

QuoteChrome 109 is the last version of Chrome that will support Windows 7

I am crying bitterly now. Fortunately, MS Edge still does its job :cool:

Quote from: greenozon on November 30, 2022, 05:18:01 AM
Yet another sad news...
https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/185534985/sunsetting-support-for-windows-7-8-8-1-in-early-2023?hl=en (https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/185534985/sunsetting-support-for-windows-7-8-8-1-in-early-2023?hl=en)

Keep the current installer (that still works for 7/8). Don't connect to the internet during installation. Find a way to disable the auto update 'feature'? Opera and others (Firefox, etc.) will probably follow at some point.  :undecided:

Quote from: zedd151 on November 30, 2022, 08:01:34 AMDon't connect to the internet during installation.

Do you think Chrome will install the latest version and then greet the user with "Sorry, I can't run on this machine"?

Quote from: jj2007 on November 30, 2022, 08:13:10 AM

Quote from: zedd151 on November 30, 2022, 08:01:34 AMDon't connect to the internet during installation.

Do you think Chrome will install the latest version and then greet the user with "Sorry, I can't run on this machine"?

I dunno, but very possible. I use Opera these days.

 :biggrin:

Sad to say guys, this is the legacy of using an old and out of date OS version. I ditched Win7 64 Ultimate for performance reasons and suffered the long BETA stage of Win10 64 pro but I can run anything well and have none of these update problems.

Quote from: hutch-- on November 30, 2022, 09:12:01 AM
I ditched Win7 64 Ultimate for performance reasons...  ...Win10 64 pro... and have none of these update problems.

As an alternative there's always ubuntu or other Linux flavor.  :tongue:  With their own bugs features.  :biggrin:
For this problem and many others, there's always another way... without installing the bloated monstrosity that is Windows 10/11  :badgrin:

Z,

I am using legacy hardware, a 2016 i7 but I have it in a big enough setup to have no problems with Win10 64 bit pro. Clocked the CPU at 4 gig and with 64 gig of memory, it runs like a rocket. Certainly not as fast as some of the later CPUs but you won't grow old waiting for things to get done.

For big tasks, I have a number of Intel Xeons that can handle many cores and threads but this old i7 is a good machine to develop on, thats why I use it.

You only get problems from running not only older but much smaller hardware.

Well, I just don't care: Windows 7 is fine for me, don't need to advance anywhere beyond it. Now if Opera drops support for it, I still have this version of their browser which I'll continue to use, so again, don't care. Just so long as they don't "upgrade" to HTML 13 and break all previous versions ... no, they couldn't do that. Even Micro$oft has to jump through hoops to make sure they don't break legacy software that people still use.

One thing I will say about Windows 10: it's a hell of a lot smarter about installing and configuring stuff. Like printers: I plugged in my HP Laserjet 2100M (a 20-year-old unit) into a USB port and it recognized it and installed all the needed stuff. Windows 7 not so much: I actually am using a driver for a different printer (LJ 2200) which works fine (all I need anyhow is the PCL5 support), but the install process was a lot less seamless under 7. Oh, well.

I bet they (Chrome et al) will just start using brand new stupdi scheme for system dlls like api-ms-win-core-****

eg python went that cruel way and you can't install ver 3.10+ anymore...
https://discuss.python.org/t/windows-7-support-for-python-3-9-or-3-10-without-a-fork/13842 (https://discuss.python.org/t/windows-7-support-for-python-3-9-or-3-10-without-a-fork/13842)

stupid crazy B.S. marketing


2) isn't Opera using chromium engine already many years ...?
or you sitll using Opera 12.x??? (native Opera engine)

android versions have funny names,like "kitkat" OS,you could also end up with hardware combined with old Android OS version make apps doesnt work properly
might need to keep Android device hidden from chocolate lovers :tongue:
I suspect intel and AMD have got inspired by these names and used project names like "whiskylake cpu" and "coffeelake cpu"  :greenclp:

In regards to web browsers, is anyone running windows 7 with MS Edge web browser? I am currently running Opera browser but as mentioned in this thread it has problems with site certificates. Before I install Edge I would like to hear from anyone that runs Edge on Windows 7. Specifically in regards to site certificates. Any issues? Chrome doesn't have these issues either, but as with other Google products it is very intrusive and collects a huge amount of user data which I don't care for and would have to wade through dozens of settings to turn off those things that can be turned off. (Not all can, asfaics)
Of course Edge probably collects user data as well, but I don't know at this point.

Hi NoCForMe,
Here is one more reason to consider Win10: W7's RichEdit implementation is buggy (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=5383.msg116347#msg116347).

Quote from: zedd151 on December 10, 2022, 03:31:10 AM
In regards to web browsers, is anyone running windows 7 with MS Edge web browser?

Yes, meself. I tried FireFox and SlimJet and others, and it turns out Edge is not that bad. Fast and slightly less memory-hungry than Firefox (I have 6GB installed here on my Win7-64 notebook, it cannot hold more) :cool:

Quote from: zedd151 on December 10, 2022, 03:31:10 AM
In regards to web browsers, is anyone running windows 7 with MS Edge web browser?

I am now currently installing Microsoft Edge web browser. After it finishes installing, I'll give it a whirl...

Well, that went over like a lead balloon:

QuoteUnable to connect to the internet. If you use a firewall, please allowlist MicrosoftEdgeUpdate.exe.

Hrrrmphhh! I AM connected to the internet, and not firewalled.   :badgrin:   Damn MS!

Okay, I located a standalone installer for MS Edge. And here I am. I will use this over the next few days to see if it is a good enough replacement for Opera. (On Windows 7 64 bit)


One caveat worth mentioning...
Each time I open Edge, I am greeted with a message bar with:

QuoteTo get future Microsoft Edge updates, you'll need Windows 10 or later.

I want to reply with "Do you promise?"  :tongue:  For now this (Edge) looks okay... No certificate issues as with Opera, and all the sites I checked display properly as well (unlike with Opera). Now I have to wade through the settings to see what else needs to be turned off. I have turned off a few things already.

A few minutes later...
Hold the phone... Well, going to Mirosofts own website for Edge extensions a security warning popped up and page not displayed properly.  :undecided:  Dammit!

Strange, no such problems here, Windows 7-64, too :cool:

Quote from: jj2007 on December 11, 2022, 08:40:43 AM
Strange, no such problems here, Windows 7-64, too :cool:

Odd that.  :undecided:  At any rate, not a show stopper. Always another way. Now lemme teleport back to 2006, before all this newfangled MS crap.  :biggrin:

 :biggrin:

Returning back to the middle ages when the black death ravaged Europe, pilgrims took to self flagellation to repent of their sins so as to spare themselves from the effects of the black death. It didn't work and they died like the rest but HAY, it really made them feel bad but released the guilt of their sins.  :tongue:

Tsk tsk, OH it hurts, do it again !
Tsk tsk, OH it hurts, do it again !
Tsk tsk, OH it hurts, do it again !

Reversion back to Win7 64 is like the pilgrims of old, repenting of their sins.

Tsk tsk, OH it hurts, do it again !  :rofl: :skrewy: :tongue:

Quote from: zedd151 on December 11, 2022, 06:49:30 AM
I am now currently installing Microsoft Edge web browser. After it finishes installing, I'll give it a whirl...

Okay, enough of that. I would rather keep using Opera as I am used to it. Even the forementioned issues. I can live with it.

Quote from: hutch-- on December 11, 2022, 10:17:29 AM
Reversion back to Win7 64 is like ...

Actually, you are incorrect. I actually upgraded from Windows 7 32 bit to Windows 7 64 bit.  :tongue:
I got tired of reinstalling 64 bit just to take a quick look at others' 64 bit projects even though that (reinstall OS) only takes 10 minutes or less. (I don't want to dual boot)

I only keep Windows 10 64 bit around for when I absolutely (begrudgingly) need it.  :badgrin:

What Opera ver are you using?
https://get.opera.com/pub/opera/ (https://get.opera.com/pub/opera/)
there are dozens of editions wow!
what was a time
does anyone remmeber that day when Opera browser was a paid one? :)

Vivaldi is lighter chrome version and it works in Windows 7.

Meet Vivaldi Browser (https://vivaldi.com/)

Quote from: greenozon on December 11, 2022, 07:49:47 PM
What Opera ver are you using?

93.0.4585.37

apparently their  latest. It always checks for, and installs updates. Have'nt found the setting to turn off automatic updates.

I see..I was wrong
latest opera is just "repainted" chromium under the hood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Opera_web_browser#Opera_2022 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Opera_web_browser#Opera_2022)

OK, OP checking in here. Just want to let y'all know that I've been running fine on my new old Windows 7 machine for more than a month now, with no real problems. I guess you just have to half beat to death first, then it lies down and starts behaving.

Actually, I have a crackpot theory why it's working well. I took (someone's, forget exactly who) advice and installed that backup program, dism, and started making backup images. Since doing that I've had no problems. My theory is that the threat of having a valid backup has scared the gremlins away, and they haven't bothered me since.

I even found a kinda-sorta solution to that fuzzy-text problem I was having. I put in a call to SetProcessDPIAware() to make my code "high-DPI aware" (tried it in my editor). Well, it works, with some issues. The text is, overall, much clearer, though there are still weird artifacts seen depending on which font one uses. The main problem was with the text in the RichEdit control, which was definitely fuzzy or blurry. Now it's sharper, but there are still strange things, like the top or bottom line of the equal sign disappearing. (The best font I found for monospaced text is something called "Monospac821 BT", which I think came from an old Corel disc I had from a couple decades ago.)

The other thing is that right after calling that function, the size of everything in the program changed! But I found that just choosing a new font for the edit control pretty much fixed that. I still have no idea how this whole "DPI-aware" thing works.

No blue screens. The only crashes are from running the programs I write, which is to be expected. (Not really crashes, just the program dies. No big deal.)

Regarding the text issue: I am still completely mystified why it is that I have so much trouble with some software (like my own programs, or older software for Win2000 or XP), but absolutely no problems with, say, Opera: everything in my browser windows is rendered perfectly. Clear and sharp. By the way, I've had no other issues at all with Opera, which makes those reports I read about it in this thread somewhat baffling. I did have that certificate issue after reinstalling W7, but after applying that patch that someone here posted everything's been fine.

Like I say, you just have to wave a torch in the face of those gremlins, scare them off ...

Quote from: NoCforMe on December 31, 2022, 03:34:33 PMMy theory is that the threat of having a valid backup has scared the gremlins away, and they haven't bothered me since.

As a former engineer, when something seems broken I take a big hammer, approach slowly with a grim face and... voilà, it starts working again :cool:

QuoteI even found a kinda-sorta solution to that fuzzy-text problem I was having. I put in a call to SetProcessDPIAware() to make my code "high-DPI aware" (tried it in my editor). Well, it works

Interesting. I'll have to test that on my stuff, although I never had these font problems :thumbsup:

Not in the MASM32 library, so you'll have to use LoadLibrary() and GetProcAddress() (it's in User32.dll).

Seem lots of users went on revert to win7 bandwagon
Is that combined with lots of poor europeans cant afford new computer that runs win11 because high energy prices that caused ms to fire 10k employees?

Any ideas how to live longer after Chrome 109 on old good W7, gentlmen? :)

https://prnt.sc/b4Jfjgi2r-u6 (https://prnt.sc/b4Jfjgi2r-u6)

You don't get updates any more, that's all. Get used to your current version :biggrin:

I protest your honor!
it is illegal and degrades my human dignity

I work 99% on my trusty old Win7-64 machine, but yesterday I played with my brand new (14 months) Win10 notebook. At a certain point, it asks me for a password to connect to the Win7 machine. Oops. So I started searching for that password (I have a hidden place where I store that stuff), but no luck. Apparently I forgot to register this one :sad:

Control Panel, network, HOME group, all these awful places where Micros**t makes you run in circles without ever solving any problem.

Next: Google. Why does my PC tell me that it cannot create a HOME group? For no reason, apparently.

After two hours wasted, I had the bright idea to reboot the Win10 machine. Guess what? It no longer wants a password.

If Bill Gates had to pay for all the hours wasted chasing Windows bugs, he would be the poorest person on the Planet.

But then, bug chasing has become a hobby in its own right. Confess: how would you feel if your software just ran smoothly on three different Windows versions? Deprived! There is this short moment of happiness when you found a bug and fixed it, but then boredom creeps in, a new feature will make you happy... no, it's not the feature, it's the new bug that makes you happy. It's the bug that gives your life a purpose. Thank you, Bill Gates, you deserve being the richest man on the Planet.

It seems to be the case that once you know where everything is, Win10 works OK and surprisingly enough, once Win 11 hit the deck, Win 10 is not being stuffed around with like it used to be. I feel sorry for those who jumped on the Win 11 bandwaggon, only to have to suffer years of Microsoft having to fix it.

I am blessed in that none of my boxes will run Win 11 so they cannot try and force an upgrade onto you by stealth like they tried to do with Win 7 some years ago. I tend to build a computer for a specific OS version and the last thing I want is some half arsed upgrade forced on you.

My Win 7 64 Ultimate retail version cost me over $400 AU and I was phuked if I was going to let it be updated to a broken crapheap. I started using Win 10 with a new box I built for it, my trusty old monster that I thrashed the guts out of for 6 years and now that it is a retired senior, it still runs perfectly if I ever need it. It has a 14 core Xeon in it now so its useful enough but the latest 18 core Xeon has more grunt again.

Quote from: hutch-- on January 24, 2023, 10:22:55 PM
It seems to be the case that once you know where everything is, Win10 works OK

It works ok for the average user, maybe. I just discovered that one of my proggies is broken because the Win10 version of msftedit.dll handles the EN_LINK notification differently. That was a very rare event in the chain Win3.1->Win7.