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This is a MIDI file from the public domain converted to an MP3 and re-engineered to sound something like music. I am in debt to Alex for both the original idea of hunting up MIDI files and a number of suggestions on re-engineering MIDI files to sound something like lute music.

I forgot to drop the volume so it might be a bit too loud.

I love Dowland!

Not bad Hutch!

Hi Steve,

Quote from: hutch-- on April 26, 2017, 04:59:01 AM
This is a MIDI file from the public domain converted to an MP3 and re-engineered to sound something like music. I am in debt to Alex for both the original idea of hunting up MIDI files and a number of suggestions on re-engineering MIDI files to sound something like lute music.

I forgot to drop the volume so it might be a bit too loud.

   Well, on my old, somewhat challenged setup, it started out a bit
garbled.  Then settled down to a good playback.  I have my speakers
set low so it sounds rather good.  Does sound better than your
average MIDI by a good bit.

Congrats,

Steve N.

Hutch, it will depend on how much you´re willing to perfect this. But a nice trick to humanize these midi files is to go making small variations in the "notes velocity". They go from 0 to 127 and they change the "volume" so to speak. Very often you find the same values for notes but in real world there should be some variations to those.

note 1: vel 100  -> you 90
note 2: vel 100  -> you 101
note 3: vel 100  -> you 96
etc...

You get a nice result by doing such moves.

Cubase (my DAW) has a programmable section where you can do logic moves. I programmed a Humanize Macro that does exactly this, randomize velocities and note positions.


Another one: before you convert it to audio, try and make some small variations in the tempo track (count in BPM). Say the song is in Bpm 100. Make some tempo variations around it. Try to slow down at music cadenzas.


Another thing: If you intend to reproduce a Lute playing, you should narrow your stereo field. In your recording you have the effect of 2 instruments playing separately (which is not a problem obviously). If you narrow the stereo field of the player and apply a wider reverb, you get a different result.

Just some tips from a friend. I hope that helps

Thanks Alex,

This stuff is very useful. I have so far only modified the MP3 conversions. The suggestion to narrow the stereo field makes sense as the separation does not fit a single source instrument. The only thing I have not worked out how to do so far is individually edit each stereo track as many of the samples I have to work with voice an extra instrument that is too loud over the emulated string instrument. I can drop the volume on the entire stereo side which works OK in some tracks but its not successful on all tracks.

I understand the velocity change and will have to work out how to do it. Funny enough I well understand "phrasing" old music as I used to play guitar in both classical and flamenco before I had a slight finger injury that put an end to it.

Are you using Reaper? Let me know and I find out how to do the velocity editing for you

So far Audacity has been working well for me, just finished restoring 12 Ramon Montoya tracks from 1936 which you imagine was a ton of fun. I have not worn it out yet and a wave form editor is something very familiar as I used to build audio equipment long ago and was used to use an oscilloscope.

 Nice!

but where are you dealing with midi? Does Audacity handle midi?

Not in any useful way. I found a MIDI editor but have not learnt how to use it. So far I have only converted them to MP3 then worked on the MP3 as waveforms. The other problem is I doubt most of the midi tracks I have would not have individual tracks. They are recorded in stereo which you can see from the 2 waveform tracks but I don't think they can be edited back to their original form.

For audio edition on a more professional way, even if you are dealing with midi, you could use Melodyne Editor (you can adjust all the tones, notes, pitchs etc), IsotopeRX (Which i prefer). Not sure if they opens midi, but converting from mdi to wav or mp3 is easy.

I often  use audacity too, but more like a complement of adjusts of the others tools i use together when editing audio.

Quote from: guga on April 27, 2017, 10:22:36 PM
For audio edition on a more professional way, even if you are dealing with midi, you could use Melodyne Editor (you can adjust all the tones, notes, pitchs etc), IsotopeRX (Which i prefer). Not sure if they opens midi, but converting from mdi to wav or mp3 is easy.

I often  use audacity too, but more like a complement of adjusts of the others tools i use together when editing audio.

Hi Guga, these softwares are in fact really good, but none of them are suited for the tasks Hutch needs.

Melodyne is a fantastic tuning app, and RX is more like a "magical" filter. We at Tv Globo use RX a lot in order to remove unwanted noises from field recordings.

What Hutch could do, if already in the audio world (and before applying reverb), is to apply a Stereo Expander (Audacity may have one, otherwise there are some free options available).

Use the Stereo Expander not to widen the stereo field, but towards negative values, towards mono. This will glue things together as a single source around the centre. Then, apply reverb to put the Lute in a stereo room.

I'm not familiar with Audacity. But I'll have a look and check it out.

Something that has been useful is being able to change the track length with an option that Audacity has called "sliding time scale/pitch shift" and I have just used it successfully on a number of lute tracks which shifted them from being a bit dreary to brisk and fast. A reasonably large amount of reverb improves the sustain and I have been using a preset equalisation to change the profile to improve the presence. Adding 6db to the treble gives the stringed instrument enough cut to be heard through other instruments and on a few tracks I have dropped the volume on the channel that carried the bulk of the additional accompaniment.

Audacity has the save options of either stereo, joined stereo or mono but I have not found much use of it yet. Most of the track I have worked on so far have distinct stereo separation and with multi-voice tracks it works fine. I do well understand what stringed instruments sound like as I studied flamenco years ago until I had a slight hand injury that ruined it but guitars, lutes and the like are things I know what they should sound like and they are rarely ever soft and muddy sounding like much of the recorded stuff I hear. A lute is not as powerful as a good classical or flamenco guitar but they are very crisp and bright if played properly.

As a trailing comment, many of the MIDI files I have worked on are rather badly put together, you have to fix starts and stops, effectively equalise much of the output, trim junk of both ends but if they were played well enough you can fix most of it.

Steve, audacity maybe ok for you to use then. It has available several plugins for free. Some tutorials also explain how to setup correctly the equalizer when you are dealing, for example, with human voices. Depending the settings you make you can clean the voices in order to make it sounds a bit more natural and without eventual noises that it may exists.

For instance, my clean vocal equalization, i setup as the image below
(http://i67.tinypic.com/1zq6h6s.jpg)

There are other configurations you may find usefull, for example, setting them to looks like EMI 78, or also cutting off some high frequencies can work too to avoid metalization of the audio.

I never used the "sliding time scale/pitch shift" in Audacity before to compare. For adjusting the pitch or the time scale i use Isotope or even Sony Vegas can do it, expanding or shrinking part of the audio track in order to make minor adjustments of the audio tone, for example. But, i´ll take a look at this feature :)

LordAdef

Yep, Isotope can do magic :)

I´m surprised you work at Globo. What a coincidence :) I use audio and video restoration tools on a regular daily basis. I´m a collector of old movies, 16mm films etc and recently i changed my former activity (lawyer) and opened a company for video restoration and online old/classic video rental (and eventually audio restoration and in the future, dubbing :) ).  It´s still on the very beginning, but i´m having some increadible ideas to put back our memories on the screen :)

In brazil we have a major problem concerning the dubbing. Nowadays we see more and more extremely low quality on the dubbing. New producers or directors working at dubb studios are simply ruining the old audio of the good old days of dubbing in Brazil. We miss (A lot) voices like the ones from herbert richers, Cinecastro, AiC São Paulo, VtiRio, Alamo etc. Today is a pain to hear any dubbed movie.

This is why i decided to open a firm related to movie restoration and rental, since people is missing the good old days of TV with the original brazilian audio from these studios. I sent some of my movies from my private collection to TV companies like Rede Brasil so they could at, least try to put them in air again. And now, with my new firm, i believe i can be able to improve this idea, restoring the material i have or can acquire from legal distributors or from places like Arquivo Nacional etc.

I´m trying to make some filters related to video edition in order to restore whatever is possible. For example, stabilizing, track objects, removing noises and scratches from video, deinterlacing them, colorizing old P&B films (a hard task to do automatically,  but it is possible to do) and for audio, cleaning old audio from Tv series or old movies, "lost" cartoons or 16 mm films in order to maintain the original aspect intact (referring the original voices of the dubbers) but with a high quality.

All of this restoration is a must because, unfortunately, we are seeing our culture slowing be killed by a wide range of reasons and what people are seeing today on TV (cable or opened) is a true shame in issues like the quality of the program and more specially the terrible new dubbing. Here we are seeing in the past years what we call "redublagem" which is simply destroying the old dub in order to put crap in it´s place. The excuse is because "poor' quality of old films, but it is a lie, because with the actual technology, more then 90% of the old films can have the audio restored.

Few TV companies still have the sensitivity to maintain the old dubbing, such as SBT, Globo (not always, since the joys of sessão da tarde was gone for ever  :greensml: , TCM, Band and some few ones in cable TV, but the vast majority of them are simply ruining our memories with this damn re-dubbing concept

Added to my love for old films, those are the main reasons why i created a firm that will (i hope) restore whatever is possible.

To you have an small idea of my love for old movies/films. Some years ago i´ve got from a australian friend a piece of what could be the only english dubbing track of a old Anime called fantomas. the audio was recorded on a old audio tape back in the 60's and fortunately my friend have this piece and sent to me. I restore this small audio (something around 10 or 15 seconds), cleaned what was possible, restored to the part of the video it was related and send back to him. He was so glad to see and hear those small few seconds, that he contacted a friend of him that worked at Channel 5 in australia to see if they could have more info of what happened to the  english audio. Unfortunately, for what he told me, the audio was sent back to japan in the late 60's and no one can find it again.

Btw..Steve, if you want and remember Phantoma, i can send to you the piece i´ve done to you have a small joy of flashback :)  :bgrin:

"Phantoma, warrior of Justice" remember ? :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:

QuoteAs a trailing comment, many of the MIDI files I have worked on are rather badly put together, you have to fix starts and stops, effectively equalise much of the output, trim junk of both ends but if they were played well enough you can fix most of it.

True, you need to dig in order to find good ones. Even those always need some adjustment.

It's nice to know you have this involvement to music playing. I find it fascinating this connection programmers have with music. it's above average.

I see you are ok but let me know if I can help somehow

Oi Guga, coincidências !

QuoteI´m surprised you work at Globo. What a coincidence :)

Yes, this is how I earn my life. I´m a music producer there for about 13 years. I have mainly done "Novelas", which are the top products of Globo. Hard work....

Quoteopened a company for video restoration and online old/classic video rental (and eventually audio restoration and in the future, dubbing :) )

Nice! You should send me the link, I´d love to know more about it. You may want to know I own a professional recording Studio here in Rio de Janeiro.

QuoteNew producers or directors working at dubb studios are simply ruining the old audio of the good old days of dubbing in Brazil

I totally agree. Another point is they manage to completely spoil the original mixing balance between the voiceover and sound tracks.

QuoteI sent some of my movies from my private collection to TV companies like Rede Brasil so they could at, least try to put them in air again.

My wife works at CANAL CURTA as a financial manager (check it out on NET and others). It´s a good place for such films, I could link you up with the guys there through her.

QuoteI´m trying to make some filters related to video edition in order to restore whatever is possible.

Aham, I´ve been following your posts!

So, it´s asm joining people!

You know, last year I went to Belo Horizonte for a Conference and met with some people working on preservation of old tapes. They are doing a good job there.

Hutch, try and stay as long as you can in the midi world. Everything you do after going to audio is degenerative.

Things like speeding up or slowing down and so forth. Do it in the midi world.

RE : The comments on the new generation making a mess of mixing older tracks, when you grew up with a range of music you knew exactly what it sounds like and when you get some jerk full of loco weed re-mixing old tracks, they add far too much bass to it drowning out the vocals and middle to high frequency sound sources. This happened with the conversion from some original vinyls to CD and you would have to try and remix the tracks to get them to sound right.

Another factor that is a pest, dynamic range may sound like a good idea but with most sound reproduction equipment, the low frequency rumbles the speakers and you have trouble hearing the high frequency and/or low volume. One of the things I have had to do with editing so many converted MIDI files is adjust the volume so that the amplitude doe not cause clipping and turn up the low volume sections so you can actually hear them. Fortunately this is not a big deal with a wave form editor.

I have yet to find a decent MIDI editor, I have one but it looks horrible. Having an analogue brain, I am much more at home with wave forms that digital music formats.

Real nice music.

Very relaxing.

It would be good for a self-hypnosis tape.

QuoteAnother factor that is a pest, dynamic range may sound like a good idea but with most sound reproduction equipment

This is the late 20th/21th century audio plague.... google "Loudness war" and see...

Hutch, this might interest you.

For us60 I think it´s a nice treat (on sale):

http://www.cinematique-instruments.com/inst_lute.php (http://www.cinematique-instruments.com/inst_lute.php)

they sold out music maker here few years ago,cheap in a electronics mall, I got it, but I Have no skill, but to sing and make texts,sometimes I practice singalong japanese music from anime
would be nice if you get me some advice to make more than just play with recorded whistle adding reverb and echo
it would be nice sample whistle and use it
@Guga
why you dont abandone dubbing and go subtext?
1:you can practice english while watching tv
2:if you are so skilled you can enjoy englishspoken movie,without subtext, its time to put subtext to a new language

Alex,

Something I did get up was 10 out of 10 restored Montoya tracks, between Warner and Sony music they tried to claim every track but I ran objections to every claim and beat them as they never owned the 10 tracks. It took over 6 months due to the American DMCA.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZsEs2oXB91XcAYRkCrpid0AeOuEPXplI (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZsEs2oXB91XcAYRkCrpid0AeOuEPXplI)

I would say that someone was very bussy lately :t

Quote from: caballero on February 21, 2018, 08:44:50 PM
I would say that someone was very bussy lately :t

Oh yes! Haven't you noticed how Hutch has been quite in the forum these days? Now we know why!

 :biggrin:

I am always busy, whats new ? Up to 108 64 bit library modules, the last being a character range stripper using a table. I finished the Montoya track about 3 months ago and with some humour, beat the greedy bastards, just that it took months to get them all posted due to Youtube kissing the arse of Warner and Sony music.

Quote from: LordAdef on February 21, 2018, 09:50:48 PMHaven't you noticed how Hutch has been quiet in the forum these days? Now we know why!

I had to drownd my sorrows with another bottle of pure malt.
(https://scontent.fbne1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/27336222_1548756065172416_5338333447252591583_n.jpg?oh=2e5858fa143a7f7dbfdc5649e74109f4&oe=5B0848E1)

Quote from: Magnum on April 29, 2017, 06:34:34 AM
Real nice music.

Very relaxing.

It would be good for a self-hypnosis tape.

if you play it backwards it says C/C++ is evil
:P

@at hutch: starting to feel thirsty... :greensml: