I really hate when I decide to do some compression and optimization, spend some good time on it, only to realize that, after timming it, the bloody thing got actually slower :icon_redface: :icon_redface:
The good thing is I understand that bit of code a lot better.
This is also to say hello to my old friends, here!
Viva Bolsonaro :t
The end of the corrupted PT (https://www.dropbox.com/s/7kg0c120722p9m9/lula.jpg?dl=1) era, restoration of traditional values. :t
Quote from: AW on October 29, 2018, 06:27:59 PM
Viva Bolsonaro :t
Martin Niemöller: (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/654579-als-die-nazis-die-kommunisten-holten-habe-ich-geschwiegen-ich)
Quote"When the Nazis fetched the communists,
I kept silent;
I was not a communist.
When they imprisoned the Social Democrats,
I kept silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they got the unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they brought the Jews,
I kept silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they got myself
there was no one left to protest."
Viva Bolsonaro :t
What was Hitler's political party?
Why do not I see flags of Germany instead of swastikas?
The ideological bias of Nazism is based on what ideology? Fascism of Italy?
Lenin:
Quote"Impeach opponents of what you do, call them what you are!"
edit--- a better translation.
Judge them for what you are, criticize them for what you do
Venezuela Next! (click the image)!
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/gflhxhhxkbuk7x0/madurocaricaturajpg.jpg?dl=1) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWCVMPTkPeA)
Hi,
Quote from: LordAdef on October 29, 2018, 05:03:51 PM
I really hate when I decide to do some compression and optimization, spend some good time on it, only to realize that, after timming it, the bloody thing got actually slower
Yes, compression, making programs smaller, and optimization,
making programs faster usually conflict. Most of my attempts
with my code were to make things faster. I have a generally poor
record of trying to make things smaller. In either case it can be
hard to follow the 15% rule.
QuoteThe good thing is I understand that bit of code a lot better.
Yes, that is a useful side effect. Sometimes the most useful
result. On one program I wanted to speed up I tried everything
that I could find to speed it up. On the intended platform I did
get it twice as fast. On the computer where it was already too
fast, I got a 30X improvement. But I did learn what kind of code
changes were likely to help, and which ones were likely to be a
waste of time.
QuoteThis is also to say hello to my old friends, here!
Well, hello back. Nice to see you again.
Cheers,
Steve N.
In Venezuela they are killing their own dogs to eat meat.
I really hate to see these things, and worse, to know that people have not understood about the past.
I have read the two government plans of the presidential candidates, and I leave it to you to compare with the past:
Who is in favor of mass extermination of people, I mean, abortion?
Who has the proposal of disarmament, create a new Constituent Assembly, regulate the press?
Prisons in Brazil are not to take the bandit out of society, but to re-socialize it. The villain's family receives more than one minimum wage, the honest worker's family and killed by the villain gets nothing.
Who wants more State in our lives, create new Ministries, plus taxes?
That's why I stopped commenting.
Quote from: FORTRANS on October 30, 2018, 12:26:37 AMcompression, making programs smaller, and optimization, making programs faster usually conflict.
Often they do, but not as a general rule. Bloated code pollutes the execution cache, too. But it is true that using somewhat longer instructions, especially SIMD, can give much more speed than ultra compact slow old instructions such as lodsb & friends. Still, I use them often, e.g. when parsing for a filename inside a path. Since I rarely do that a Million times per second, it really doesn't matter speedwise.
Hi Jochen,
Quote from: jj2007 on October 30, 2018, 02:04:22 AM
Often they do, but not as a general rule.
Okay, I will cede you this. The difference between "usually"
and "often" is perhaps smaller than "a rule" though. And my
experience is with my own code usually.
QuoteBloated code pollutes the execution cache, too. But it is true that using somewhat longer instructions, especially SIMD, can give much more speed than ultra compact slow old instructions such as lodsb & friends.
Unfortunately, the example I referred to was a program that
was intended for an 80186. SIMD and cache concerns were
not applicable. Code bloat was perhaps worse in that situation
though. The newer computers reacted much better, to just
about every improvement I tried, than on the '186.
Oh well, maybe next time I'll say something useful. Something
like; profile your own code to see what happens.
Regards,
Steve N.
:biggrin: Hey fortrans, it's actually very interesting to know someone in this world who actually programmed for a 80186... :icon14:
Quote from: felipe on October 30, 2018, 03:10:41 AM
:biggrin: Hey fortrans, it's actually very interesting to know someone in this world who actually programmed for a 80186... :icon14:
I had a notebook powered by a NEC V20 which, quoting wikipedia, was a reverse-engineered, pin-compatible version of the Intel 8088 with an instruction set compatible with the Intel 80186. Operating System from factory was MSDOS 3.3. I think I have used it also with MSDOS 5.0, DRDos and other clones.
I have not thrown it away, one of these days I will look for it and see if it still works. It had a 1200 baud modem and I used it to connect to the BBSs I was selling software, namely V860 a relative success in the country pushed by some free press articles and interviews (in those times that could happen for free).
politics first:
Thanks AW, JJ and Mineiro
Well, I'm definitely not part of this debate. I don't vote for principle. It's outrageous that one is obliged by law to vote (which is a Right). The only decent country on earth that voting is still obliged by law is Australia (at least by wikipedia) (in Turkey too)
I hope we get good things done and this country gets back to track.
Quote from: FORTRANS on October 30, 2018, 12:26:37 AM
Hi,
Quote from: LordAdef on October 29, 2018, 05:03:51 PM
I really hate when I decide to do some compression and optimization, spend some good time on it, only to realize that, after timming it, the bloody thing got actually slower
Yes, compression, making programs smaller, and optimization,
making programs faster usually conflict. Most of my attempts
with my code were to make things faster. I have a generally poor
record of trying to make things smaller. In either case it can be
hard to follow the 15% rule.
QuoteThe good thing is I understand that bit of code a lot better.
Yes, that is a useful side effect. Sometimes the most useful
result. On one program I wanted to speed up I tried everything
that I could find to speed it up. On the intended platform I did
get it twice as fast. On the computer where it was already too
fast, I got a 30X improvement. But I did learn what kind of code
changes were likely to help, and which ones were likely to be a
waste of time.
QuoteThis is also to say hello to my old friends, here!
Well, hello back. Nice to see you again.
Cheers,
Steve N.
Hi Steve! Hi JJ!Both nice contributions, I thank you both.
It's an interesting topic. I learned an awful lot from this experience. And now know how to work around it. The simple fact of changing to algorithms/code gave me a different perspective on how to optimize it further. And I did clean a lot of slow down code.
There is no reason to code in asm if you don't target for speed, right?I'm also plotting my benchmarks, and that is also being very very useful. Just boring to copy/paste it in OpenOffice. I not arsed to code a plotting routine, but may eventually do it in the end.
Quote from: LordAdef on October 30, 2018, 03:57:12 AM
There is no reason to code in asm if you don't target for speed, right?
Actually that's not right... ;)
Quote from: felipe on October 30, 2018, 05:13:24 AM
Quote from: LordAdef on October 30, 2018, 03:57:12 AM
There is no reason to code in asm if you don't target for speed, right?
Actually that's not right... ;)
Well, you are right! Asm is a beautiful language apart from what I meant.
Because very few people code in ASM these days, most of them are in this forum, in my opinion the best advantage of being proficient in ASM is having the full arsenal to be able to debug a program produced in a high-level language. Many bugs are simply impossible to be spotted otherwise.
Quote from: LordAdef on October 30, 2018, 06:03:35 AM
Quote from: felipe on October 30, 2018, 05:13:24 AM
Quote from: LordAdef on October 30, 2018, 03:57:12 AM
There is no reason to code in asm if you don't target for speed, right?
Actually that's not right... ;)
Well, you are right! Asm is a beautiful language apart from what I meant.
The combination of make it faster and smaller you can enjoy make old-school 1k,4k,64k demo,I mean before pixelshaders took over demoscene
Maybe some employer or teacher force you to code in another language,thinking in asm+using for example C low-level stuff you have advantage of how to make faster and better code
I think if you endup programming embedded with slower hardware it's good to know assembly,I think there was one great asm coder that made a 3d game on a very slow 180mhz risc cpu on a handheld device
TI calculator Scroll the screen was only possible with my Asm skill
@Steve,how did you do x30 speed? Unrolled loop 30 times?
Hi,
Quote from: daydreamer on October 31, 2018, 05:50:18 AM
@Steve,how did you do x30 speed? Unrolled loop 30 times?
No, it looks like I did as many things as I could think of. I did
unroll a loop, but only two (or four?) times. The LOOP instruction
only allows a jump of about 120 some bytes and the code in
the loop was not short.
Here are the results from the majority of the testing computers.
200LX, 80186 16MHz, MS-DOS 5.0, ~2.2x
+1.96816912E+000 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T, mains, A.O.T. battery
+4.35200000E+000 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
Pentium 90, WD 90C33, DOS, ~5.0x
+2.49228395E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+1.24106907E+002 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
Pentium III 800, Matrox G400, OS/2 VDM, ~17.2
+3.87951807E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+6.68239356E+002 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
Pentium III 800, Matrox G400, W2k
+2.34104046E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+3.79800853E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+4.43276284E+002 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
+6.39156627E+002 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
AMD 64 @ 2 GHz, WinXP, ~31.5x
+4.21271764E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+1.32561728E+003 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
PSEUDO5 (the fifth version of the program) was modified
to show timing statistics, PSEUDO5T. PSEUDO7 was the
version I was trying to optimize.
A big thing for all but the 80186 was to move the working
buffers out of video memory to main memory. Here are the
comments made at the time.
PSEUDO7 30 March 2006, test an idea prompted by Abrash
book on optimization.
3 April 2006, timing tests show that not reading and writing to
video RAM can significantly speed things up on some machines.
(But not the 200LX.) What I did was change from four reads
from video RAM and one write to video RAM, to one read video
RAM, one write to video RAM, and four conventional memory
read and writes.
4 April 2006, the read from video RAM can be avoided if I swap
work areas in conventional memory from one frame to the next. Changing from 8-bit memory reads and registers to more complex
16-bit code helped. I aligned code entry points and data access to
word values. I got rid of a PUSHF / POPF that saved the flags when
calculating something inside a loop. INC, DEC, and LOOP do not
affect the carry flag. I replaced some MOVs with XCHG. And I
replaced discrete MOV, INC, LOOP code with a REP MOVSW in a
copy routine. And probably some other stuff. (Old code, bad
memory.)
Cheers,
Steve N.
Quote from: FORTRANS on October 31, 2018, 07:44:05 AM
Hi,
Quote from: daydreamer on October 31, 2018, 05:50:18 AM
@Steve,how did you do x30 speed? Unrolled loop 30 times?
No, it looks like I did as many things as I could think of. I did
unroll a loop, but only two (or four?) times. The LOOP instruction
only allows a jump of about 120 some bytes and the code in
the loop was not short.
Here are the results from the majority of the testing computers.
200LX, 80186 16MHz, MS-DOS 5.0, ~2.2x
+1.96816912E+000 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T, mains, A.O.T. battery
+4.35200000E+000 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
Pentium 90, WD 90C33, DOS, ~5.0x
+2.49228395E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+1.24106907E+002 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
Pentium III 800, Matrox G400, OS/2 VDM, ~17.2
+3.87951807E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+6.68239356E+002 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
Pentium III 800, Matrox G400, W2k
+2.34104046E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+3.79800853E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+4.43276284E+002 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
+6.39156627E+002 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
AMD 64 @ 2 GHz, WinXP, ~31.5x
+4.21271764E+001 Iterations per second. PSEUDO5T
+1.32561728E+003 Iterations per second. PSEUDO7
PSEUDO5 (the fifth version of the program) was modified
to show timing statistics, PSEUDO5T. PSEUDO7 was the
version I was trying to optimize.
A big thing for all but the 80186 was to move the working
buffers out of video memory to main memory. Here are the
comments made at the time.
PSEUDO7 30 March 2006, test an idea prompted by Abrash
book on optimization.
3 April 2006, timing tests show that not reading and writing to
video RAM can significantly speed things up on some machines.
(But not the 200LX.) What I did was change from four reads
from video RAM and one write to video RAM, to one read video
RAM, one write to video RAM, and four conventional memory
read and writes.
4 April 2006, the read from video RAM can be avoided if I swap
work areas in conventional memory from one frame to the next.
Changing from 8-bit memory reads and registers to more complex
16-bit code helped. I aligned code entry points and data access to
word values. I got rid of a PUSHF / POPF that saved the flags when
calculating something inside a loop. INC, DEC, and LOOP do not
affect the carry flag. I replaced some MOVs with XCHG. And I
replaced discrete MOV, INC, LOOP code with a REP MOVSW in a
copy routine. And probably some other stuff. (Old code, bad
memory.)
Cheers,
Steve N.
I think agp and pcie bridge to vram is optimised to be one way highway ram->vram,so cpu render graphics should be on system ram backbuffer,because reading vram can be 100 times slower,I think that's the reason you achieve 30x faster is your change from vram to system ram
The 186 is pre agp/pcie era, either built in or older pci card graphics maybe unrolling and moving from 8bit to 16bit MOVs make it faster
Quote from: daydreamer on November 01, 2018, 04:12:33 AM
I think agp and pcie bridge to vram is optimised to be one way highway ram->vram,so cpu render graphics should be on system ram backbuffer,because reading vram can be 100 times slower,I think that's the reason you achieve 30x faster is your change from vram to system ram
Yes, the majority of the speedup on that machine (and the
other non-80186 computers) was from moving the working
buffers out of the video memory. That was from the Abrash
suggestion that started the whole process. However which
changes caused how much improvement was not recorded
for anything except the target machine. Well to a lessor degree
for the development systems.
QuoteThe 186 is pre agp/pcie era, either built in or older pci card graphics maybe unrolling and moving from 8bit to 16bit MOVs make it faster
Yes the 200LX has built in CGA video. And moving the working
buffers to main memory had a rather small positive effect. Those
changes were kept mainly because they did no harm to the 200LX
and helped all of the other computers.
Unrolling and the shift from 8-bit to 16-bit code helped, along
with alignment changes. However the biggest gains were from
changing MOVs to their string equivalents, LODS, STOS, and
MOVS, and using REP to replace LOOP.
Regards,
Steve N.
P.S. For laughs only!
22-05-03 12:17p 1,164 PSEUDO5.COM
22-05-03 12:12p 2,015 PSEUDO5T.COM
12-05-06 02:35p 34,694 PSEUDO7.COMSRN
I want to join to the congrats for Bolsonaro's victory. :t
> The ideological bias of Nazism is based on what ideology? Fascism of Italy?
Nowadays it seems that nobody knows that Nazism was the National sozialismus party.
Quote from: caballero on November 03, 2018, 05:44:47 AMNowadays it seems that nobody knows that Nazism was the National sozialismus party.
I am German, I know that very well. It was just a name; this "socialist" party killed numerous
real socialists and communists, inter alia 96 members of parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Members_of_the_Reichstag). Of course, negligible victim numbers compared to the roughly 6 Million jews killed, or the 20 Million Russians who died indirectly from Hitler's reign.
Btw it all started with hate speech, just as with Bolsonaro, Trump, Salvini, Le Pen, Wilders, Duterte and a few others. And just like 80 years ago, there are again many people, even intelligent persons, who shout
hooray when these figures attack the weak, like immigrants, homosexuals, Sinti, women, etc. :icon13:
Funny enough...
...in his winning speech he used many times the expression "libertar" this, "libertar" that... (libertar = to free)
... In my mind I couldn't help but connect it to "Arbeit macht Frei"....
... he probably doesn't even know the above line and its meaning, and probably meant something else... but I found this weird, and it should have been avoided.
Maybe it's time for Anarchy in the real meaning of the word. ( old greek ἀναρχία (anarchia), - no authority/ruler )
Our rulers ( governments, banks, multinationals, monarchs and religious rulers ) create only chaos and steal our freedom and money.
Democracy is dead, only Johnny Rotten can save the world. ;)
The political distinctions are interesting ones here, while Mussolini was a true fascist, nazism was a different phenomenon in that it was a nationalistic/jingoist version of corporate control of government, rigid control of the population and grand ambitions in terms of other country's assets. The atrocities against the European Jewish population began with Hitler's tome and was seriously fuelled by withdrawal of money in 1929 from Germany that left people starving in the streets.
The sanctions in 1936 onwards was again blamed on the American Jewish communities and was used by the nazis to justify the asset stripping and later genocide against any of the Jewish community in any country that they occupied.
The sad fact is that history does repeat itself, corporate control of governments in the western countries, military "adventures" to gain control of assets in the middle east and direct abuse of corporate media to flog propaganda in a way that would have made Doctor Goebbels proud.
Don McLean : Everybody Loves Me, Baby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG6SCDUiFZs
The word fascist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_(insult)) worn out and has become weak to insult, so communists and other marxist variations are exploring the word nazi to its limits. Trump is nazi, Le Pen is nazi, Bolsonaro is nazi, that's it.
Gee, these guys dislike gays, gypsies and muslims because they said this and that, this is so bad! Everybody is expected to like gays, gypsies and muslims. It is so normal to love those minorities!
It would be much better to live in a country with extreme unemployment, hunger and 200 murders a day governed by corrupts like Brazil has been lately than tolerate guys that dislike gays, gypsies and muslims. :icon_rolleyes:
So I've been promoted to the "communists and other marxist variations" category now. Years ago, in a conference, somebody called me a "neoliberal", and I was amused, too. Fortunately, I've learned not to feel insulted by such name calling :P
Quote from: hutch-- on November 03, 2018, 01:27:03 PMThe sad fact is that history does repeat itself, corporate control of governments in the western countries, military "adventures" to gain control of assets in the middle east and direct abuse of corporate media to flog propaganda in a way that would have made Doctor Goebbels proud.
Right. It's perfectly ok if Trump sells arms ("letters of intent for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to purchase arms from the United States totaling US$110 billion immediately, and $350 billion over 10 years" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_States%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_arms_deal)) that are being used, inter alia, to kill Millions in Yemen, because yeah :t, that means
jobs for "America first". But if a line of ragged poor people approach the U.S. border, they are "terrorists from the Middle East". We are living in interesting times, folks, and I wish Brazil luck with Bolsonaro. Some of you deserve him, but the great majority of Brazilians are just innocent victims of evil but clever propaganda.
me and a friend felt we must do the right thing when we where on a playground when I was on vacation when I was a kid,we must defend the tiny german kid that got harrassed because of what Nazi's did long Before he was borned
if it starts a war,would you really have what it takes to take the lives of your international friends,recognizing their faces or knowing they are i the trenches opposite side because your General order you to kill germans,dutch,ozzies,spanish,brazil,Russian etc people?
Sad history, daydreamer
I think that the main problem is that live usually tends to be dominated by some faction of people that impose their criteria over the rest, that obligate to more and more people to search another positions that finally become the new dominating faction.
Being the biggest agreement on most things the optimal solution, what we can understand by democracy, is not the most usual.
Life is chaotic... maybe it would not be authentic life otherwise.
As an European I dislike Trump - he hates Europe even more than his predecessors.
However, I believe Trump is doing a good job for the Americans, at least much better than the Kenyan-born-with-a-forged-birth-certificate-from-Hawaii guy did.
- Trump was able to tame that fat wild guy of North Korea.
- He is doing a lot to improve relationship with Russia. This is a mammoth task given that the American people DNA is set to make them behave as if communists are still out there, so they are obliged to hate Russia forever.
- For the first time, a president in the US dared to defy China unfair trade practices.
- And I firmly believe that he will tame as well the Iranian regimen, let's give him time.
Now, talking about arms sales to Saudi Arabia - this has nothing to do with Trump. It has been since long the best US business outside their borders.
And the US has the right to protect their borders from more Latino people migration. There are already lots of poverty in the US which needs to be fixed first.
I am yet to make a decision on Trump, anything was better than Hillary Clinton and he is doing something that needed to be done in the US, draining the swamp, much of which has been done but he is yet to beat the American main stream media. He seems to have the backing of voters in the US rust belt and is getting some results in providing more jobs for ordinary American workers but he is keeping bad company with neo-cons like Bolton and the sabre rattling is potentially very dangerous.
Both China and Russia have massive military power and while the US probably has even more military muscle, a mis-calculation by any of the nutters in the Pentagon who still labour about first strike risk leaving the US as a smoking nuclear dustbowl. Abandoning the treaties that limited a range of missiles opens the floodgate.
The number of countries that have dumped the US dollar in oil transactions are attacking the US at its most vulnerable, paying for its attempts at world control through massive debt that has been funded by the US petro dollar and as that dries up as more countries dump the dollar, the capacity to maintain so much military expenditure will start to fail.
If Trump can dispose of the rest of the deep state he can probably start to fix the massive debt problems that the US is experiencing and in this endeavour I hope he can succeed as it will improve the lot of many Americans that are doing it tough at the moment.
> Abandoning the treaties that limited a range of missiles opens the floodgate.
Yeah, not the brighter thing to do. It is often said that the next war to the WW3 will be made with bows and arrows.
> start to fix the massive debt problems that the US is experiencing
Yes, the "right to get into debt" that is named here, or the right to send the population to misery.
> the US has the right to protect their borders from more Latino people migration
I think it is talking about 10 thousand people who intend to enter illegally in a country in a single stroke. Some people use it to attack Trump. I wonder what they would say if the destination were their country or their home. Which leads me to wonder why Mexico has allowed them to pass. What would have happened if their destiny were to stay in Mexico.
Quote
The number of countries that have dumped the US dollar in oil transactions are attacking the US at its most vulnerable, paying for its attempts at world control through massive debt that has been funded by the US petro dollar and as that dries up as more countries dump the dollar, the capacity to maintain so much military expenditure will start to fail.
The rise of the Petrodollar System(https://www.dropbox.com/s/wboriy89w2gmf04/kissinger-saudi-arabia1.jpg?dl=1)
The Americans laid out their terms. They were simple and two-fold.
1) The Saudis must agree to price all of their oil sales in U.S. dollars only. (In other words, the Saudis were to refuse all other currencies except the U.S. dollar as payment for their oil exports.)
2) The Saudis would be open to investing their surplus oil proceeds in U.S. debt securities.
You can almost hear one of the Saudi officials in a meeting saying: "Really? That's all? You don't want any of our money or our oil? You just want to tell us how to price our oil and then you will give us weapons, military support, and guaranteed protection from our enemy, Israel? You've got a deal!" :greenclp: :greenclp:
(quoted from https://followthemoney.com/)
Quote from: LordAdef on November 03, 2018, 08:23:24 AMFunny enough...
...in his winning speech he used many times the expression "libertar" this, "libertar" that... (libertar = to free)
... In my mind I couldn't help but connect it to "Arbeit macht Frei"....
... he probably doesn't even know the above line and its meaning, and probably meant something else... but I found this weird, and it should have been avoided.
Reminds me this from actual president piñera in chile: https://www.dw.com/en/chilean-president-apologizes-for-nazi-linked-guest-book-gaffe/a-6150217 (https://www.dw.com/en/chilean-president-apologizes-for-nazi-linked-guest-book-gaffe/a-6150217) :idea:
I wonder how a president can be so forking dumb!
Edit = Profanity