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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: hutch-- on December 29, 2012, 03:04:21 PM

Title: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on December 29, 2012, 03:04:21 PM
Utah teachers trained to use guns

http://media.smh.com.au/

Good to see someone in the US is willing to protect the kids in schools.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on December 29, 2012, 06:17:06 PM
Yes, it is good.

I had a short discussion of this with my sister, formerly a teacher with a concealed carry license. I don’t recall her exact wording, but she expressed the opinion that only selected teachers should be allowed to carry guns, and mentioned ex-military as a qualification.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: jj2007 on December 29, 2012, 07:53:08 PM
...and mentioned ex-military as a qualification.

That sounds convincing. Vietnam vets teaching your kids history is a brilliant idea. And I am sure the reps will accept a minor tax increase to finance that :t

Minor problem: There are about half a Million elementary schools in the U.S.; will you find enough vets?
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on December 29, 2012, 09:00:18 PM
...and mentioned ex-military as a qualification.

That sounds convincing. Vietnam vets teaching your kids history is a brilliant idea. And I am sure the reps will accept a minor tax increase to finance that :t

Minor problem: There are about half a Million elementary schools in the U.S.; will you find enough vets?

We have 20+ million vets here. And what is wrong with having a vet for a teacher? Virtually everyone I knew had a vet for a father, and vets for uncles. And almost all of the male teachers of that era were vets. And I seriously doubt that my sister would have suggested this if she did not know vets who were teachers.

I think your response here explains some things. You apparently know very little about us as a people. This could explain why you blindly expect our statistics to be in line with those of other countries. And why you seem unable to recognize Bill’s distortions as what they are.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Bill Cravener on December 29, 2012, 10:04:07 PM
And why you seem unable to recognize Bill’s distortions as what they are.

Distortions? I deal only in facts. Prove it otherwise. You are a funny fellow Michael! (http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/crackmeup.gif)

Every time I hear of another mass shooting in our schools, our malls, our movie theaters or at our political rallies and elsewhere I ask when will this growing madness end? Armed guards in schools, perhaps it may stop another school massacre, perhaps not, but what does it say about American society and its fetish for guns. Is this the kind of society we want to live in? I sure as hell do not!!

A handgun wearing guard in a school doesn’t stand much of a chance against a nut with rapid fire assault rifle wearing a bullet proof vest does he? Are we going to have to have guards carrying assault rifles as well in our schools? I do not believe more guns are the answer to stopping the growing slaughter in America. Trying to prevent shootings in schools without talking about guns is like trying to prevent lung cancer without talking about cigarettes. There are over 100,000 public elementary and secondary schools in the U.S., thousands more if private schools, med schools, law schools and other post graduate schools are counted, with over 55,000,000 students.

We have become a crazed gun-obsessed country and I fear for us deeply. Having our kids killed as well as other innocence is outrageous. Think about it, our Founding Fathers would have been horrified at what we have done with their Second Amendment.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on December 29, 2012, 11:19:39 PM
Bill,

Apart from your views on a gun culture which I might add are not without merit, in the immediate term getting the teachers to protect the kids would have to be a priority rather than leaving them as easy targets for loonies and an ongoing justification for the gun grabbers. Make that task of murdering young children a risky business and you will see it drop off. It will not be perfect and it may happen again but making it a risky business has got to be a good first step.

If there is merit in removing a range of guns from US society then it will need to be argued on its merits, not over the dead bodies of innocent children. I personally agree that a range of weapons should not be available, anything rapid fire, Uzzis, various machine pistols and if handguns are to be allowed, then they should be openly displayed for general ownership. It does make sense for at least some people to conceal them, some law enforcement folks, teachers and so on but anyone else that carries a gun should be easily identified as carrying a gun.

A recent move in California collected guns that many people did not want and they got something for it, this removed a pile of unwanted weapons from society so they could not be passed along to people who will misuse them.

Michael is right in that different countries have different histories in relation to firearms, the Swiss for example have a high ratio of assault weapon ownership yet you don't hear of mass shooting in Switzerland all that often if ever. We have a gun history here in OZ but its almost exclusively for feral animal control. The US has a long history of private gun ownership thanks to the second amendment and this is not going to change quickly.

What can change over time is how this is implemented, get rid of any rapid fire weapons, restrict handguns and force them to be seen while defending the vulnerable in society and you will see the changes over time. The only losers are the gun grabbers who don't care what the cost is as long as they succeed in disarming entire societies.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on December 29, 2012, 11:39:13 PM
A handgun wearing guard in a school doesn’t stand much of a chance against a nut with rapid fire assault rifle wearing a bullet proof vest does he? Are we going to have to have guards carrying assault rifles as well in our schools? I do not believe more guns are the answer to stopping the growing slaughter in America. Trying to prevent shootings in schools without talking about guns is like trying to prevent lung cancer without talking about cigarettes.

Ah, another of your distortions, how considerate of you.

This thread is about armed teachers, but since you used the word “guard” twice, I’m assuming that you mean guard.

What kind of picture did you have in mind when you typed that, a town marshal and a gunslinger facing off in the street at high noon? Do you recall my statement about the guard being part of an intelligently designed security and access control system? Who other than a total moron would design a system that would allow an armed intruder to enter the building and then shoot the guard? The idea is that the guard, and indirectly the kids, has all of the advantages and the intruder has none.

And we are talking about guns. You’re talking about taking them away from law-abiding people, and I’m talking about these people using them to protect themselves and others.

Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: nidud on December 30, 2012, 12:46:49 AM
deleted
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: dedndave on December 30, 2012, 01:23:36 AM
i think it's great that they are training teachers
in fact, there are many things that should be covered - not just the use of guns
whether or not they can hit the side of a barn, they should at least know how to handle one safely
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Bill Cravener on December 30, 2012, 01:26:01 AM
And we are talking about guns. You’re talking about taking them away from law-abiding people, and I’m talking about these people using them to protect themselves and others.

I am confused how the suggestion that America needs stricter gun control is distorted by you and other gun proponents to mean all guns would be removed from all citizens (gun grabbers). That is absurd and would never happen. Hell if that were the case I’d no longer be able to hunt as I have for some 50 years, something I greatly enjoy. The simple fact is guns of most any kind are just too easy to get hold of here in America by anyone with no questions asked. Not all gun owners are gun worshippers but there are way too many that are acquiring guns without background checks of any kind who are. That fact needs to change and the only way is by stricter gun control.

As to teachers carrying guns, that will be a tough one to sale. My niece is an English teacher at a fairly large public school and the idea of teachers being trained to carry and operate a handgun has been discussed with near total disapproval. No, your average school teacher wants nothing to do with guns and most teachers will never go for lock and loading everyday before they enter the classroom. The only other possible solution against school students being slaughtered would be armed guards patrolling the corridors.

Even so like Sandy Hook a nut isn’t going to enter thru the front door he will shoot out a window and enter or even more frightening just open fire thru classroom windows at the panicking students within. I guess we will have to replace all school windows with bullet proof glass or eliminate windows in classrooms all together to stop that from ever happening.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: nidud on December 30, 2012, 02:14:15 AM
deleted
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Magnum on December 30, 2012, 04:12:30 AM
If an armed teacher had been there, a head shot would have ended it pretty quickly if they had body armor
or have full metal jacket rounds.

I am a little uncomfortable with a gun around a school, maybe limit a school to no more than one licensed person.

Andy
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: dedndave on December 30, 2012, 04:15:49 AM
it's kind of subjective to "pick a teacher with good judgement"
of all the teachers i remember in public school, that would be about half   :lol:
but, they could certainly have some level of training on how to handle abnormal emergency situations
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on December 30, 2012, 11:32:18 AM
Bill,

Quote
I am confused how the suggestion that America needs stricter gun control is distorted by you and other gun proponents to mean all guns would be removed from all citizens (gun grabbers). That is absurd and would never happen. Hell if that were the case I’d no longer be able to hunt as I have for some 50 years, something I greatly enjoy.

You have not seen it in action, go down the gun grabber road and you will get all the uglies, "registration - confiscation", ever more complex conditions, having to obtain a firearm safe for storage, subject to random inspections of licencing and storage and immediate confiscation if some trivial detail is out of order, massive fines for owning an old gun from your grandfathers era, immediate confiscation and being charged with firearm offences for carrying a hunting weapon in a car etc etc etc ....

We have this now in OZ, the left over of the Tasmanian scam where a guy who was a simpleton was supposed to have killed a large number of people at Port Arthur yet the details were hushed up and no open trial was conducted. For disarming society we now have rampant gun violence in NSW with drive by shootings and an ever more sophisticated range of handguns imported for criminal gangs who also have turf wars and shootouts.

The last mass shooting here in Sydney was at a western suburbs shopping centre about 20 years ago by a guy called Wade Frankum (do a spoonerism on his name to get the problem) and he killed his first victim in the coffee shop in the shopping centre with a bowie knife.

The end result of the gun grabbers here in OZ is that ethnic gangs have plenty of handguns, bikie gangs have sophisticated weapons to conduct turf wars and criminals performing armed robberies can easily get Glock and similar large magazine handguns while the law abiding folks who used to own a rifle for hunting are prevented from owning a rifle.

In OZ its easier to buy a hot Uzzi or Glock than it is to buy a 444 Marlin or high velocity varmint rifle. If you are into terrorism you can get large calibre machine guns, RPGs, any assault rifle you like, slick large magazine hand guns and so on but if you are an old age pensioner who owns an old 22 rifle you will be treated like a violent criminal, it will be confiscated, you will get dragged through some sordid court case and possibly jailed.

Go down the gun grabber route and you will get to see what we do, an emerging police state where the police and criminals are armed and society is a big free target for both.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: jj2007 on December 30, 2012, 11:54:23 AM
The end result of the gun grabbers here in OZ is that ethnic gangs have plenty of handguns, bikie gangs have sophisticated weapons to conduct turf wars and criminals performing armed robberies...

Wow! That's almost as bad as in the UK (gun-free) or Canada (almost gun-free, compared to U.S. standards)!!

What is strange, though, is that OZ is right in the middle of a bunch of typical EU countries, next to New Zealand and Canada. The correlation between homicides and gun ownership is pretty good, thanks to the U.S. :P
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on December 30, 2012, 11:57:02 AM
And we are talking about guns. You’re talking about taking them away from law-abiding people, and I’m talking about these people using them to protect themselves and others.

I am confused how the suggestion that America needs stricter gun control is distorted by you and other gun proponents to mean all guns would be removed from all citizens (gun grabbers).

Confused, or just engaging in more distortion? My statement did not specify “all” guns. And as I have repeatedly stated, you cannot use changes in the laws to remove guns from "all citizens”, you can only remove them from the law-abiding “citizens”.

Quote
The only other possible solution against school students being slaughtered would be armed guards patrolling the corridors.

This is another distortion. You are representing the choices as being limited to ones that are unlikely to be effective and/or that you are prepared to attack, and ignoring a very wide range of possibilities.

Quote
As to teachers carrying guns, that will be a tough one to sale.

Considering the direction that the concealed/open-carry laws have been going, and the tragedies that have occurred in gun-free zones, I think not.

Quote
Even so like Sandy Hook a nut isn’t going to enter thru the front door he will shoot out a window and enter or even more frightening just open fire thru classroom windows at the panicking students within. I guess we will have to replace all school windows with bullet proof glass or eliminate windows in classrooms all together to stop that from ever happening.

This should be a no-brainer Bill. We will need to go far beyond bulletproof windows.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Bill Cravener on December 30, 2012, 11:52:36 PM
Bill,

Apart from your views on a gun culture which I might add are not without merit, in the immediate term getting the teachers to protect the kids would have to be a priority rather than leaving them as easy targets for loonies and an ongoing justification for the gun grabbers. Make that task of murdering young children a risky business and you will see it drop off. It will not be perfect and it may happen again but making it a risky business has got to be a good first step.

Perhaps so Steve but as I've stated before I really doubt that teachers especially the female ones will be willing to carry.

You and I have been around for quite awhile and I ask myself near daily what has happened to America. We have become a population of paranoid schizophrenics frightened by our own shadows, where slaughter by a gun has become a commonplace event and yet the only way we see to control that fear or to stop the slaughter is for everyone to carry a gun.

It has gotten to the point that we need armed guards and citizens carrying guns in every public place where people gather so that we may feel safe. It has gotten to the point that we see the need to have school teachers carrying guns in the belief that it will keep our kids from being gunned down by a madman. I mean seriously think about it, what does that say about us as a civilized nation. We are the second most violent country on this planet just below that of Africa.

I remember growing up in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s when you could leave your doors unlocked at night, hell many left their doors unlocked when they would go out during daylight hours. I remember those years as a time when folks felt safe and free from any fear of personal harm at least the majority of the populous did. We did not have this fetish for gun ownership back then as we do now. What the hell happened to us?

Why would anyone from overseas wish to live here in America? We have gone fucking insane, believing we are the police of the entire world looking for any cause we deem fit to go to war with another nation. No doubt about it America has gone mad, truly mad, and now it is beginning to come back and bite us. All al-Qaeda or any other terrorist group that wants to see the destruction of America needs to do is to sit back and wait. If this growing obsessive craving for guns isn’t stopped we will soon destroy ourselves.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Bill Cravener on December 31, 2012, 12:00:01 AM
The last mass shooting here in Sydney was at a western suburbs shopping centre about 20 years ago by a guy called Wade Frankum (do a spoonerism on his name to get the problem) and he killed his first victim in the coffee shop in the shopping centre with a bowie knife.

I’d rather face a nut holding a knife over a gun any day. I read that the last gun related mass murder in Australia was at Monash University October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang a student shot his classmates and teacher killing two and injuring five. Thats at least 10 years ago. Australia’s stricter gun controls appear to be working quite efficiently. What I’ve managed to find out about your gun restriction is that they are not as stringent as you make them out to be and that there are nearly 1 million gun owners. And by the way what would be important to me is Australians are allowed to own and use firearms for hunting just not with handguns.

I personally would have no problem with Australia’s gun laws. Firearms in Australia are grouped into Categories with different levels of control.

Category A: Rimfire rifles (not semi-automatic), shotguns (not pump-action or semi-automatic), air rifles, and paintball markers. A "Genuine Reason" must be provided for a Category A firearm.

Category B: Centrefire rifles (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901. Apart from a "Genuine Reason", a "Genuine Need" must be demonstrated, including why a Category A firearm would not be suitable.

Category C: Semi-automatic rimfire rifles holding 10 or fewer rounds and pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding 5 or fewer rounds. Category C firearms are strongly restricted: only primary producers, occupational shooters, collectors and some clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.

Category D: Semi-automatic centrefire rifles, pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding more than 5 rounds. Functional Category D firearms are restricted to government agencies and a few occupational shooters. Collectors may own deactivated Category D firearms.

Category H: Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of six months using club handguns, and a minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun.

Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45", currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 handguns that meet the IPSC rules, but larger calibers are not approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests. Category H barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols: magazines are restricted to 10 rounds. Handguns held as part of a collection were exempted from these limits.

Category R/E: Restricted weapons: machine guns, rocket launchers, assault rifles, flame-throwers, anti-tank guns, Howitzers, artillery, etc. can be owned by collectors in some states provided that these weapons have been rendered permanently inoperable. They are subject to the same storage and licensing requirements as fully functioning firearms. Certain Antique firearms can in some states be legally held without licences. In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Bill Cravener on December 31, 2012, 12:02:40 AM
Wow! That's almost as bad as in the UK (gun-free) or Canada (almost gun-free, compared to U.S. standards)!!

What is strange, though, is that OZ is right in the middle of a bunch of typical EU countries, next to New Zealand and Canada. The correlation between homicides and gun ownership is pretty good, thanks to the U.S. :P

You are so right Jochen but we Americans can not allow facts and logic to get in the way when it comes to guns. :biggrin:
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on December 31, 2012, 01:10:52 AM
Bill,

 The "Genuine Reason" and "Genuine Need" criteria as they are applied are sufficient for the vast number of people to be excluded. Once long ago city folks could help friends in the country get rid of feral animals, now its so much hassle no-one bothers. We still have drive by shooting with illegal weapons and turf wars between bikie gangs but then they don't even try to own guns legally. Typically its the police and criminals that have guns in OZ, ordinary people are pissed around so badly they don't bother any longer.

The murder rate has not changed since the old gun laws of long ago, the only difference is the gun grabbers have won and we are all at much higher risk because of it.

With your casual hunting gun usage, they would be confiscated here in OZ.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: dedndave on December 31, 2012, 01:22:21 AM
take away the guns now
next year, they'll be ordering us to burn books

dictators like the masses to be unarmed and uninformed
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Magnum on December 31, 2012, 02:12:53 AM
That correlation is probably subject to some conditions.

Let's just look at gun deaths that weren't suicide or accidental.

You have to look at all factors.

I agree that America has way too many guns in general.

Let's look at guns kept by homeowners for home defense or those who like to target shoot on the weekends
or shoot some feral hogs.

I used to do home repair/remodeling and was disturbed at the lack of sense of those who keep loaded guns in plain site.

All guns should be locked up at all times.

Don't read past here Bill. :-)

Then you have some that carry a pistol in their glovebox.

I don't know about anyone else, but dealing with other drivers sometimes can someone to get pretty hot.

In the category for those who should know better.

These happen about 1 % of the time based on my experience.

I was plinking away with my .22 at an indoor range made from an old movie theatre with sand etc.

There was plywood separating the different shooting areas.

I heard a loud boom and looked over to my right to see a piece of plaster falling from the ceiling.

I packed up my stuff and left immediately.

Then there once was a guy who fired off a fully automatic rifle at the pistol range side of the range.

There were signs prohibiting fully automatic weapons.

He was told to leave and banned from coming back.

I lost my focus here and got a little sidetracked.

Outta here,

                    Andy

Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on December 31, 2012, 09:14:30 PM
We have become a population of paranoid schizophrenics frightened by our own shadows, where slaughter by a gun has become a commonplace event and yet the only way we see to control that fear or to stop the slaughter is for everyone to carry a gun.

This is a distortion. Schizophrenia is a serious mental disorder and you are implying that a majority of people here suffers from it, when the statistics show a rate of occurrence far, far below this.

Quote
It has gotten to the point that we need armed guards and citizens carrying guns in every public place where people gather so that we may feel safe.

Your often repeated “feel safe” is a distortion. People are attempting to be safe, not just feel safe, and this includes you with your shotgun in the corner of your bedroom.

Quote
It has gotten to the point that we see the need to have school teachers carrying guns in the belief that it will keep our kids from being gunned down by a madman. I mean seriously think about it, what does that say about us as a civilized nation. We are the second most violent country on this planet just below that of Africa.

What does it matter what it says about us as a civilized nation? You couldn’t find logical arguments to support your position so you decided to play the national shame card? We have the constitution, history, and current reality that we have, and how we rank relative to other countries that do not have a similar constitution, history, and current reality is irrelevant.

Quote
I remember growing up in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s when you could leave your doors unlocked at night, hell many left their doors unlocked when they would go out during daylight hours. I remember those years as a time when folks felt safe and free from any fear of personal harm at least the majority of the populous did. We did not have this fetish for gun ownership back then as we do now. What the hell happened to us?

In that era we had a lot of guns, and a lot veterans, including combat veterans, and the criminals knew that trying to victimize one of these veterans could be fatal. The veterans got old and the criminals became bold. People eventually got their fill of being victimized, and recognizing that the police could not be depended on for protection demanded the ability to protect themselves, in high-enough numbers for the law-abiding people to eventually get what they demanded.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Bill Cravener on December 31, 2012, 09:27:49 PM
I am not against guns, how many times must I say it? But they are way too easy for anyone, I say anyone, to get hold of here in the states. In Pennsylvania you as a private gun owner can get a permit to sale your guns at a gun show to anyone with no check of the buyer’s background. What type of guns you offer up for sale doesn’t matter. I’ve been to gun shows here in PA and know this as the truth.

Will it take another much larger killing event to bring about change in our gun laws? If someone murdered a hundred school children in a single day with guns would a majority of Americans then agree to stricter gun control? If the numbers are on a truly epic scale perhaps then we will finally say enough. One has to wonder what our national threshold for shame is. I fear that day will come sooner then later where we will find out just what that level must be. It is truly barbaric for a country to come to such a point in order for it to find out the answer to that question.

More guns is not the answer, I mean for christ sakes, we have 300 million of them now. Just how many more will it take before we see that “more guns” is not the answer? God bless America my ass. If there really is a God he must be pissed off at us Americans for letting slaughters such as the Sandy Hook event to happen and to then do nothing to stop it from happening again.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Bill Cravener on December 31, 2012, 09:30:31 PM
Some of you are not convinced that America is nuts when it comes to guns?

Quote
It should surprise no one that the NRA has recently thrown its weight behind an industry campaign to deregulate and promote the use of silencers. Under the trade banner of the American Silencer Association, manufacturers have come together with the support of the NRA to rebrand the silencer as a “safety device” belonging in every all-American gun closet.

Silencers: The NRA’s latest big lie (http://www.salon.com/2012/12/30/silencers_the_nras_latest_big_lie/?source=newsletter)
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Bill Cravener on December 31, 2012, 11:35:58 PM
By the way if you don’t believe what is said in that Salon left leaning article link above, here’s a link to the ASA site itself where they make it quite clear this is what they and the NRA’s intentions are.

If these crazies get their way the commonplace slaughter here in the U.S. will be done silently. Bang, bang, bang, bang. . .oops no what I mean is, thup, thup, thup, thup!!

America is sick, very sick!! :icon13:

http://americansilencerassociation.com/

Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on January 01, 2013, 10:30:31 AM
Bill,

The solution in the US is not "more guns" but a rationalisation of what already exists. Protect the vulnerable, pick up any strays that are no longer used so they don't end up in the wrong hands by amnesties, buy backs and so on. What you cannot afford to lose is your constitutional rights with the second amendment, let the gun grabbers take over and they will confiscate all of your guns, no matter how sensible your usage is.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: K_F on January 01, 2013, 11:03:08 AM
take away the guns now
next year, they'll be ordering us to burn books

dictators like the masses to be unarmed and uninformed
Dave, that's not true... unless you VOTE for lunatics  ;)
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: dedndave on January 01, 2013, 11:08:46 AM
we get assholes and lunatics no matter how you vote
it takes a certain "power hungry" type personality to even get into politics
and - they control the media well enough that they don't need to burn books
they already have a huge affect on people - just look at Bill   :biggrin:

the way our (or any, for that matter) government works is,
they start with handguns, then step it up over and over
before long, you won't be able to own a pea-shooter

the ability for the masses to own a variety of guns is the only system of checks and balances against tyrany
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: K_F on January 01, 2013, 11:20:35 AM
Ok... Let's look at the extremes

a) Everyone has a gun, obviously not all trained that well - The would be killer probably would come up with a bomb, and maybe attach himself to it. There's little counter measures against this.

b) Nobody can carry a gun. This doesn't stop people from carrying other concealed weapons, but it goes a long way in reducing personal 'mass-murder' via guns.

In either case there is probably very little way to stop the bomber, but I'm sure less guns would give the authorities more time to concentrate on the bomber side of things.
An example would be to go back to the 50's or 60's when society was not that normally aggressive.
 :icon_cool:
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: K_F on January 01, 2013, 11:47:05 AM
Let's just move away from weapons altogether..... nothing remotely explosive ?

Just like the home I live in - No Guns, NO weapons on any sort.
I've lived in the most crime-violent country longer than most of you have been alive, yet I do not have any weapons
My children are .. non-violent, we are the same.. and have never... NEVER had a robbery or brake-in.
Why.. We use our brains and do not provide any incentive for criminal activities.

You think about it
 ;)

Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Magnum on January 01, 2013, 02:47:33 PM
Most of the time the biggest weapon is our thoughts and what comes out of our mouths.

"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on January 01, 2013, 02:56:21 PM
I am not against guns, how many times must I say it? But they are way too easy for anyone, I say anyone, to get hold of here in the states. In Pennsylvania you as a private gun owner can get a permit to sale your guns at a gun show to anyone with no check of the buyer’s background. What type of guns you offer up for sale doesn’t matter. I’ve been to gun shows here in PA and know this as the truth.

This is a distortion. The type of gun does matter. For guns of the machine gun class federal law imposes a substantial set of requirements, including a background check, and severe criminal penalties for going around these requirements. This is the third go around for this distortion, and the second time I have pointed it out.

And you obviously are against guns, just not against guns of the type that you own and use.

And regarding gun shows, let me ask you a question that I have asked once before so I can watch it bounce off of you, again. For the purposes of gun control, which is better, that the transactions be concentrated in public events where they can be monitored and if necessary controlled, or done in private were they cannot be monitored or controlled in any way?

Quote
If there really is a God he must be pissed off at us Americans for letting slaughters such as the Sandy Hook event to happen and to then do nothing to stop it from happening again.

Demonstrate to me, through logical argument, how your “strict gun control” would have prevented the Sandy Hook School tragedy.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on January 01, 2013, 05:48:32 PM
Some of you are not convinced that America is nuts when it comes to guns?

Quote
It should surprise no one that the NRA has recently thrown its weight behind an industry campaign to deregulate and promote the use of silencers. Under the trade banner of the American Silencer Association, manufacturers have come together with the support of the NRA to rebrand the silencer as a “safety device” belonging in every all-American gun closet.

Silencers: The NRA’s latest big lie (http://www.salon.com/2012/12/30/silencers_the_nras_latest_big_lie/?source=newsletter)

Quote
If these crazies get their way the commonplace slaughter here in the U.S. will be done silently. Bang, bang, bang, bang. . .oops no what I mean is, thup, thup, thup, thup!!

The Salon article starts out with an “exercise” involving assault rifles, and goes on to state that the silencer muffles the noise generated by sonic booms and gas release. This is a distortion. The silencer cannot muffle noise generated by sonic booms beyond the silencer. The two most common assault rifles have muzzle velocities well beyond (a minimum of ~2x) the speed of sound, so they cannot be silenced to anything resembling “thup”. And it’s not unusual for handguns to have muzzle velocities above the speed of sound, for example the common 9mm Parabellum.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Magnum on January 01, 2013, 06:41:48 PM
Just think about someone baiting you into an argument.

You may be unknowingly being a patsy.

"Whenever you hear something, always consider the source." 

John H. -- Manager of a former Weiners store
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: xanatose on January 03, 2013, 05:44:37 PM
How about instead of taking away honest people means of self defense. We train people in the proper use of guns.  Instead of the mentality of "protecting" the victims. How about the mentality making sure people do not become victims. And the only feasible way to do so is by enabling people to protect themselves. Not by disarming them and then let only government and criminals have access to guns.

Only a fool or a person with an agenda would support a monopoly of violence on part of government and criminals. Thats what gun control is.  The gun grabbers always fail to mention:
- All shootings occurred on "GUN FREE ZONES".
- The activity that the shooter incur in was illegal. Thus a new law will not be a deterrent.
- Governments have a history of genocide that far exceeds that of ANY other human institution, including religion.  Why gun grabbers never talk about disarming government?
- Once the citizens have no way to defend themselves, they will be at the mercy of government.
- News only report massacres but fail to report when a gun owner stopped a crime.
- Google "FAST AND FURIOUS" and you will see our government has plans to demonize the 2nd amendment.  They want us defenseless.
- In places like Mexico, where they have gun control, Drug Gangs rule.

Again, only a fool or a person with an agenda would support monopoly of violence on part of government.

I seriously need to place a sign like this in my yard:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5wkMFMMQMAc/TCjwk-zaWRI/AAAAAAAABhA/Y_V70mPYCOY/s1600/gun+sign.jpg?dur=435)
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: K_F on January 03, 2013, 07:38:01 PM
Funny picture... :biggrin:

BUT.. that might just backfire on that person, advertising like that - what a fool.

Petty crime might hit his next door neighbour, but the big guns will visit his house to 'borrow his guns', for their next crime.
Unless he's 'patrolling' 24/7/365 which is impossible to do, he and his family might be next on the stats listing.

 :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: sinsi on January 03, 2013, 07:53:47 PM
the ability for the masses to own a variety of guns is the only system of checks and balances against tyrany
I've been keeping away from both threads because I can't understand why you would want a (personal) gun, but this statement just fries my brain.

I know two people who own guns, my policeman uncle (for his job) and a farmer friend (for putting down animals).
I sort of get the argument that 'the robber has a gun, so I should too' but you guys really seem to take it to the extreme.

One infographic they showed here is that the US has more guns than cars  :dazzled:
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: dedndave on January 03, 2013, 08:01:20 PM
Quote
One infographic they showed here is that the US has more guns than cars

can't imagine that being true if you don't count military and police - lol

my statement stems from the fact that our government, mainly law-enforcement, are armed to the teeth
they have enough shit to take on china, all for the purpose of internal police-actions - lol

maybe they can foresee the impending anarchy from all their crooked money-hoarding
they are afraid that, if the public is armed, they won't be able to hold onto their precious ill-gotten booty

the duty of a government is to protect the civilian masses,
not muscle them into a state of slavery

Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: sinsi on January 03, 2013, 08:19:16 PM
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/world/guns-in-america-an-interactive-look-at-the-shocking-facts/story-fnd11ay0-1226539874646
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: dedndave on January 03, 2013, 08:30:09 PM
some people will believe anything they read - lol
they pull all those numbers straight out of their ass
they are clearly tilted in a direction that sensationalizes the article
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on January 03, 2013, 08:32:49 PM
I am pretty much of the view that private gun ownership is a disincentive to violent break ins to private residences. The real win is if the phenomenon is common enough, criminals have no way of knowing who owns a gun and who does not and that makes it risky for them to randomly pick a house to rob or murder the occupants. In days of old, a farm at least had a shotgun hanging around and in the post war era it was very common for ex servicemen to own a 303 rifle and in many cases they knew how to use them properly.

In that world before the gun grabbers got their way, most people were safer and had no need to ever own a gun. What we are seeing here in OZ after more than 10 years of supression of firearm ownership is a rise in the number of illegal hand guns, criminals have no problems getting them, police and similar law enforcement folks are armed and a new phenomenon is young kids are buying illegal hand guns. While the responsible people are treated like criminals and demonised for wanting or needing a gun, the illegal market is flourishing and its not just hand guns, terrorism is alive and well in OZ and while the federal police have so far kept a lid on it and found most of the armed caches that belong to terrorist groups, there is some truly exotic stuff coming into the country judging from the occasional seizures that make the news.

Think of a world where the idiot fringe have RPGs, heavy calibre machine guns (not just toys like Uzzis), high end assault rifles, specilised sniper rifles and you get the idea of why it was so stupid to change the distribution of guns post ww2.

We can thank the gun grabber for all of this, they happily disarm sensible people but are powerless against the criminal and terrorist element. One can only wonder if its only a matter of time before the kids who can get guns start to have gun battles in the streets. Here is a link to show the joys of kids with guns obtained illegally.

Shooting death of Lewis McPherson sparks warning of teenage gun use
http://www.news.com.au/national/shooting-sparks-warning-of-teenage-gun-use/story-fncynjr2-1226546761120
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: sinsi on January 03, 2013, 08:45:21 PM
The criminal will just carry a gun.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: jj2007 on January 03, 2013, 09:03:30 PM
the Swiss for example have a high ratio of assault weapon ownership yet you don't hear of mass shooting in Switzerland all that often if ever.

A gunman has opened fire in a village in Switzerland, killing three people and wounding two others (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18773158)

According to other sources, he legally owned these guns, like all the mass murderers in the "WANTED" part of Sinsi's link except the guy in the lower right corner.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: nidud on January 03, 2013, 11:49:00 PM
deleted
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: xanatose on January 04, 2013, 08:50:02 PM
For those who still believe in Gun control and do not understand the meaning of the word Democide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgCemznb6Lc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAU9AJfttls
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: jj2007 on September 12, 2014, 05:08:37 PM
Re gun violence in schools: it seems that school toilets have become a very dangerous place (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865610697/Taylorsville-teacher-injured-after-her-gun-discharges-in-school-bathroom.html) ::)
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on September 12, 2014, 05:55:20 PM
The most effective response to gun violence is to shoot the b*stards.  :P
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: jj2007 on September 12, 2014, 10:10:51 PM
The most effective response to gun violence is to shoot the b*stards.  :P

In general, I agree, but in this case the b*stard is a school teacher who hurt herself badly because while sitting on the throne, a shot went off "by itself", passed her leg and disintegrated the throne 8)

Fortunately, no kids were present, because apparently the shrapnels from the china did some damage, too.
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on September 12, 2014, 10:43:54 PM
Look at it on the bright side, ineptitude with guns helps population control. A reasonable percentage of firearm deaths come from people doing stupid things like the girl who shot her instructor with an Uzzi.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: dedndave on September 13, 2014, 12:18:46 AM
they have to use good judgement when they let teachers have guns

first, it shouldn't be mandatory - not everyone is skilled with a gun
and, if you don't know how to handle and use one, you have no business carrying it

secondly, there is no training or qualification process
they should at least take a course and get some experience before strapping it on their side

finally, teachers in the US are not always the cream of the crop
many of them went to college and got some mickey mouse degree (something like "art history")
fine - they have a BS or BA, but that doesn't mean they're bright - lol
case in point, a teacher shoots the shitter while she's sitting on it
i don't know that all of them can be trained to own and operate a hand gun
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Magnum on September 13, 2014, 01:34:48 AM
In Texas, and can't get a right to carry license without training.

Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on September 13, 2014, 03:58:55 AM
I saw nothing in the article to indicate that she was sitting on the toilet. I would guess that she was handling the gun with it intentionally pointed in what she believed to be a safe direction, as she was probably instructed to do. How many women would you expect to have a sufficient understanding of physics and the properties of porcelain to predict what would happen when the toilet was struck by a bullet?

Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: jj2007 on September 13, 2014, 05:07:23 AM
I saw nothing in the article to indicate that she was sitting on the toilet.

I invented this crispy detail :redface:

Quote
I would guess that she was handling the gun

The article does not mention any immediate danger, so why should she "handle" that gun? In any case, I would never ever send my kids to a school where teachers run around with guns. **shudder**
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: Magnum on September 13, 2014, 05:11:26 AM
She should have left her gun in a holster.

But we don't know if she had a holster.

Hope she doesn't carry it loose in her purse. :-)

Andy

Once I was in a shooting range made from an old movie theatre with dirt as the backstop.

Plinking away with my .22.

The different shooting stations were separated using plywood.

Another guy came in with a elephant gun.

His first shot hit the ceiling....
to be continued
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: MichaelW on September 13, 2014, 06:56:24 AM
The article does not mention any immediate danger, so why should she "handle" that gun?

Come on, she could have had a holster malfunction, it could have shifted into a position were it was putting pressure on a sensitive area, she could have needed to remove a garment that it was over…
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: hutch-- on September 14, 2014, 01:59:31 PM
I was just contemplating the idea of sitting on a LOO when it was hit with a bullet, glad I was not sitting on it after it was hit, broken porcelain would be no joy to sit on.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: The solution to gun violence in schools.
Post by: dedndave on September 14, 2014, 08:42:51 PM
i've seen varying reports
a couple articles said that she was not struck by the bullet, but by ceraminc/porcelin shrapnel from the toilet