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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: K_F on November 05, 2013, 10:09:30 AM

Title: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 05, 2013, 10:09:30 AM
Yup!! this guy has it on the button...   ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDs_GuVCShA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDs_GuVCShA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)  :t
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 05, 2013, 11:28:25 AM
Never seen so much ultra-racist bullshit. He wants Apartheid back? :dazzled:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 05, 2013, 04:31:40 PM
Actually no!, he doesn't..
What a lot of older black folk say, even here say.. their lives were better under apartheid, economically and safety wise (obviously not freedom wise). Currently all sh.t is breaking loose, that would have never have happened before.  ;)
The younger generation don't know this, as they, nor the rest of the world have experienced both regimes  ;)

A lot of people/world just cannot accept the fact that the so called freedom fighters (cANCer) have stuffed it up, big time, including Nelson Mandela.
Such a farce has been made around this person that it's even harder to accept the raw facts, They had/have heavy socialist leanings.. well!, we know where that took Russia.

One must also remember that this is coming from a black American preacher, who obviously has an agenda. And is using basic facts to push a point across.
But go to africa, and experience exactly what he's talking about..  :icon_cool:

The are isolated pockets of educated people who are obviously not like as he says, but there's a damn lot more who are, and still live in a 3rd world scenario, and think so.
Is it racist or just telling the truth... what he's actually saying is that something must be done about this.
So you can be blind, live in LaLa-Land and let the rot continue... until there's total collapse/civil war (seeing plenty of these in africa), or you can pull one's finger out.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 05, 2013, 05:01:32 PM
Nelson Mandela... heavy socialist leanings...

OMG, a commie, send some drones, immediately :greensml:

Mandela kicked a gang of racist slaveholders out of business, and IMHO he did it far too gently. And yes, I've been in Sub-Saharan Africa, and made some very good friends there. Of course, their story differs from yours.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 05, 2013, 05:56:12 PM
Mandela kicked a gang of racist slaveholders out of business, and IMHO he did it far too gently.
..and he replaced them with another load of worse corrupt racist 'slaveholders'.. and he has said nothing... and the world glorifies that...  :t
When the people that voted for them, get the full story they won't be kind to them...

The only difference is that his crowd have literally bankrupted the country (as it turns to dust), whereas under apartheid and heavy sanctions, the ZA economy was still thriving within it's means.
Hospitals, schools, public transport.. etc.. etc.. all functioned perfectly, now the only place that's functioning 'normally' is the Western Cape, where the DA party is in control.

Quote
And yes, I've been in Sub-Saharan Africa, and made some very good friends there. Of course, their story differs from yours.
It depends who you meet, and where you go. Guided tours don't show the nitty gritty. I've done the Sub-Saharan 'tour' and it ain't pretty economically and most live under the subtle threat of the gun.
Corruption is rife and basic services are minimal.
I'm afraid Preacher Manning has some very valid points... A big problem.. sad to say!
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 05, 2013, 06:04:18 PM
Mandela kicked a gang of racist slaveholders out of business, and ...

... they were replaced by some more violent, feudal racist bandits. This is commonly called "progress"  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote
And yes, I've been in Sub-Saharan Africa, and made some very good friends there.

I guess that should tell us that you have the strong belief that you know what you're talking about?
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 05, 2013, 06:29:24 PM
Cynicism does have its place here. I have yet to hear of any political change for whatever motive that did not collapse back to haves and have nots. The notion that equity will follow political change is naive at best.

While the west may have institutionalised corruption, the old Soviet was rotten to the core, the eastern block countries were no better and China has a one party political system that shows all the signs of being as bad as the rest.

I show my age by being both a lasseiz faire capitalist AND a free western democracy man.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 05, 2013, 07:20:44 PM
Quote
And yes, I've been in Sub-Saharan Africa, and made some very good friends there.

I guess that should tell us that you have the strong belief that you know what you're talking about?

Yes I do know what I am talking about. And no, I am not naïve, I know very well the problems of the continent - it's a mix of "colonial heritage", strong corruption (mostly induced by Western "aid" - in fact my African friends often say "stop helping us"...) and, well, cultural factors. But what that bigot asshole of a Black priest says is just plain wrong and utterly racist. Africans have built empires (see also Great Zimbabwe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe)):
Quote
The Kingdom of Mali includes all of Ghana plus a lot more territory. During its time, Mali was the second largest empire in the world only after the Mongolian empire in Asia.
(source (http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/students/curriculum/m7a/activity3.php)).
And yes it's true that there are less monuments left than for other cultures, but that is mainly due to very tough climatic conditions. Are Scandinavians a stupid race just because most of their early cultural heritage has fallen into rotten little pieces, in some mudhole? Are Europeans more civilised than Africans, in the light of the atrocities they committed in Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium#Exploitation_and_atrocities), and which make Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao appear amateur killers?
But of course, it is soooo convenient to parrot the racist mantra...
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: dedndave on November 05, 2013, 08:10:33 PM
i think it's a matter of context
it probably sounds much different to a black person - the intended audience
he is simply trying to motivate black people to become great
and, he's using a method that invokes strong emotion to do it

I show my age by being both a lasseiz faire capitalist AND a free western democracy man.

i have seen you mention this before, Hutch
unfortunately, the gears from one don't mesh well with the cogs of the other
the US is a good example of this   :P
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 05, 2013, 09:57:10 PM
Dave,

Its even worse than that, capitalism has been prostituted into the corporate state where competition does not exist and where government is purely the enforcement arm of the corporate state. Free western democracies died long ago with the constant erosion of civil rights and now resemble the old Stalinist state. you have to be my age to remember when both meant something.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 06, 2013, 12:10:25 AM
Quote
..But of course, it is soooo convenient to parrot the racist mantra...
Ahem!!
 :biggrin:  8)
Watch the elections in ZA next year and watch the cANCer do exactly this...

It's generally not considered racist if a white person makes racist comments about whites,and the same for a black person about blacks..
Just let any other colour/nation make the same comment about a different colour/nation.. then suddenly it's racist...  :biggrin:



Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 06, 2013, 12:19:07 AM
Quote
..strong corruption (mostly induced by Western "aid" - in fact my African friends often say "stop helping us"...) and, well, cultural factors. But what that bigot asshole of a Black priest says is just plain wrong and utterly racist.
And therin lies your problem.. it's not the aid that's doing this.. it's the people themselves and that BLACK 'racist asshole bigot' is telling you just that.
With all that aid.. what the hell has happened to it.. where has it gone..  ;) Why have they not helped each other.
Why has Zimbabwe, a country that fed most of southern sub-sahara during colonial times.. now cannot feed itself.. Yup that BLACK 'racist asshole bigot' has it all wrong.
 :icon_eek:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 06, 2013, 01:38:58 AM
it's not the aid that's doing this.. it's the people themselves and that BLACK 'racist asshole bigot' is telling you just that. ... With all that aid.. what the hell has happened to it.. where has it gone..

No, it's not "the people", it's a tiny ruling class which thrives on ... aid, of course. They share the cake with Western (and nowadays Chinese) industry - or have you ever seen a Billion Dollar of aid go to local, i.e. African industries???

There is nothing left for "the people" when Western "donors" generously distribute taxpayers' money among the gangsters in the African government and the gangsters in the Western industries who are selling their products and "expert services" to a poor country.

And don't tell me now that slavery, as practised and preached by the "Afrikaners", is a better solution. ZA is sitting on a pile of shit because over many decades the white slaveholder clique brutally suppressed the development of democracy in ZA. Yes the current government is no good, but the whites should at least say "thank you, ladies and sirs" to the black people of ZA who did not confiscate all their stolen property, and who did not hang them on the nearest tree for the sake of justice.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 06, 2013, 02:09:36 AM
Yes I do know what I am talking about. And no, I am not naïve, ...

Definitely!

Quote
I know very well the problems of the continent - it's a mix of "colonial heritage", strong corruption (mostly induced by Western "aid" - in fact my African friends often say "stop helping us"...) and, well, cultural factors.

I see - obviously you do not only believe that you "know" the problems, but that you also quite clearly have recognized  the - probably fairly complex - causes of those problems. This is actually what I would call "naive" under normal circumstances - but again, no offense, your case is an exception!

Actually, reading this "discussion", I've got the impression that you've got a bit fanatic in this area of your religion.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 06, 2013, 04:56:03 AM
Andreas,

Actually, reading this "discussion", I've got the impression that you've got a bit fanatic in this area of your religion.

that's not a religious point, but a political question.

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: dedndave on November 06, 2013, 04:59:14 AM
considering what Jochen does for a living, i have to respect his views on this subject
but, as i said before, the guy is trying to motivate black people
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 06, 2013, 05:05:17 AM
Quote
And don't tell me now that slavery, as practised and preached by the "Afrikaners", is a better solution. ZA is sitting on a pile of shit because over many decades the white slaveholder clique brutally suppressed the development of democracy in ZA. Yes the current government is no good, but the whites should at least say "thank you, ladies and sirs" to the black people of ZA who did not confiscate all their stolen property, and who did not hang them on the nearest tree for the sake of justice.
I'll let you on a little secret that most of the world does not know about ZA..
At the time of the '94 takeover ZA was in a very explosive situation... It was not mandela who forgave. It was neither him nor the cANCer, but the goodwill of the people themselves.
In fact the cANCer (mandela being the symbolic leader) have never forgiven anything as the majority of whites here stay to remind them of their continuous balls-ups.. and they hate it.
Had it exploded the cANCer and mandela would not be alive today (maybe it should have gone this way).. not murdered by the white or the afrikaner..Oh No.. but by their own people, the black african.
They were shit scared at the time.. and only by a miracle (minus those stupid AWB characters) it did not go that way, but in the end the people voted for what they believed to be their 'liberators'..
The same happened in Zimbabwe... maybe uncle Bob's your good friend.. make sure you have armour plating on your back. We know where Zimbabwe is today

I'm afraid you are very naive on african affairs.. and have no idea!
 ;)

I suggest you watch the Rodriguez DVD.. 'Seaching for Sugarman'.. and you might learn something about white South Africans during that time.
Your idea that white south africans were enslavers is like telling us the world is flat.. it's cracked   :P :P :dazzled:

Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 06, 2013, 05:23:19 AM
Some realities if you care to read.. from the horse mouth   ;)
Quote
In defence of pale males
white August 16, 2013 - by TAU Bulletin

The state of the nation is no more ludicrously evident than Gauteng premier Nomvula Mokonyane’s recent “warning” that “pale males” would return to government in Gauteng if SA’s opposition Democratic Alliance party wins next year’s provincial election.

“It can’t happen, it will not happen” she declared. “Reversals in transformation are unacceptable, and the Gauteng public must be spared the “white gevaar” (danger).

Where in the world are efficiency, skills, creativity and diligence seen as a danger? Only in South Africa, where so-called liberation credentials, party membership and loyalty trump the need to maintain the first world country and its infrastructure which was handed to the ANC on a plate after the 1994 election.
Ms. Mokonyane’s racial invective and resentment has been received with a muted tolerance. Despite the non-racial assurances in the Founding Provisions of South Africa’s constitution, the governing party’s racial diatribes against, mostly, whites continue apace. Indeed, they seem to have increased. The State President’s YouTube clip where he urges his supporters to “kill the boers” and that his cabinet would “kill with a machine gun” is still running, without any apparent move by YouTube to take it out of circulation. (Yet a YouTube clip made by two white South Africans saying they refuse to apologize for being who they are was taken off within a few days of its appearance on the internet.)
South Africa has two parallel universes – the ANC’s self-delusion and the reality. The fact that the country has dramatically slipped down the world’s various achievement indexes over the past nineteen years has either escaped Ms. Mokonyane’s notice, or she is disingenuous in the extreme. Does the rather corpulent Ms. Mokonyane not realize that 90% of the food she and her countrymen consume is produced by pale males? That virtually everything she takes for granted in this country was created by pale males?
>From where did the railways, roads, commercial farms, schools, hospitals, potable water and electricity transmission emanate? The very language she uses in a legislature which is not part of her cultural heritage is a language of the pale male. The news print that distributes her humbug is not of her culture either. But she is selective in her vitriol. When this lady shops, she hurries to the pale males’ luxury shopping centers: she was recently seen at up market Hyde Park “posing proudly with her R10 000 LK Bennet shoes and matching handbag”. (Tony Leon, Business Day 30.7.13). Pale males are excoriated but they are good enough to produce and supply the luxuries which she and her fellow anti-friends cannot live without.
There is no empirical evidence to show that without the intervention of others in Africa (including pale males), Ms. Mokonyane’s culture would have evolved any further than that of those “lost” tribes one finds in the Amazon and Papua New Guinea. She should be grateful that that particular ship sailed around the Cape of Good Hope many years ago and that it decided to stop for victuals. Non-pale male groups who could have manned that ship may not have been so conciliatory to the locals, then and now.
Who created the Sasols, the Iscors, the Eskoms and the country’s nuclear capacity? Who rid the country of the tste tste fly and malaria? Who developed Africa’s premier agricultural and veterinary service, used by the whole continent? Who produces maize and other grain surpluses year after year on the continent that cannot feed itself?
And, conversely, who is busy destroying what used to be the African continent’s pin-up country?
Certainly not pale males. Ms. Mokonyane and her compatriots should look in the mirror. But if one’s modus vivendi is self delusion, then blame is the name of the game. The world has taken note of the Africa of today. It is not a pretty picture. Zimbabwe went from the continent’s bread basket to a basket case. Few if any of the continent’s governments can feed their people. Corruption, nepotism, inefficiency and venality are the order of the day. South Africa is no exception. Who is to blame for Liberia’s status as an African cesspool, or for Ethiopia’s failed state ranking? Colonialism? Apartheid? Pale males? Neither of these countries was subjected to colonialism or apartheid. They are travesties because the people who live there are who they are.

South Africa today could certainly do with some pale males to put things right. But this is not the ANC’s priority: a deep racial inferiority complex trumps practicality.
The facts
Pale males around the world are denounced by the non-achievers with relentless regularity. Whites in the United States complain about this as well. We quote Fred Reed from the US’s Nationalist Times:

“I am weary of the endless denunciation of ‘white privilege’; the calls to abolish all tests in which whites excel, and the need to make universities and police forces and advanced placement classes ‘look like American demographics’. It might be well to note the utter dependence of the US on white men who have contributed virtually everything that keeps the affirmative action classes from living in mud huts.”

Reed continues with examples of this contribution: “Euclidean geometry, parabolic geometry, hyperbolic geometry and projective geometry. Physical chemistry, organic chemistry, biochemistry. Classical mechanics. The indeterminacy principle. The wave equation. The Parthenon. Air conditioning. Number theory. Romanesque architecture. Gothic architecture. Information theory. Entropy. Enthalpy. Almost every symphony ever written. Pierre August Renoir. The diatonic scale. The mathematics behind the twelfth root of two and all that. The Bohr-Sommerfeld atom. The purine pyrimidine structure of the DNA ladder. Single sideband radio. All other radio. Dentistry. The internal combustion engine. Turbojets, turbofans, Doppler beam-sharpening. Penicillin. Airplanes. Surgery. The mammogram. The Pill. The condom. Polio vaccine. The integrated circuit.
“The computer, computational fluid dynamics. Euripides, Sophocles, Aristophanes, Homer. Glass. Rubber. Nylon. Roads. Buildings. Acetyl-cholinesterase inhibitors. Silicone. The automobile. Bug spray. Public cryptography.”
“Like it or not white men can do these things, have done them, and continue to do them. The evidence shows that all groups receiving affirmative action have not done them, and cannot do them, which is why they need affirmative action.
“The pattern of white men doing difficult things continues. Consider the founders of companies in information technologies. Not quite all white, but all men. Anyone who watched the landing of Curiosity on Mars will have noticed that Mission Control consisted overwhelmingly of white men. If I were rude, I would say to those who criticize: invent your own things.”
Reed cites South Africa as an example of a tragedy in the making. “A constantly dwindling number of whites are at the mercy of a predatory welfare class and it’s possible they can’t and won’t carry the rest of the population. If things get worse for them, they will simply flee the country.”
Whether this scenario plays itself out in South Africa is up to the whites. But Ms. Mokonyane mustn’t take too much for granted. Her dislike of pale males borders on the obsessive, to the point where common sense and practical considerations for the benefit of all South Africans are cast aside in an all-consuming and embittered realization that her ANC cannot feed its people, cannot govern, and are no better than what the world has seen emanate from the rest of the continent over the past fifty years. She knows this, the ANC knows this, and the world knows it. Keeping out the pale males won’t improve the ANC. This racial animosity is inimical not only to whites but, eventually, to the future of all South Africans.
The pale male acrimony is however selective. Ex president Nelson Mandela was not interned in an ANC-run hospital. The new ANC elite have quietly bought houses in so-called white areas. They send their children to white schools. They want the pale male’s education system. (Every university in South Africa is a white creation). What is the yardstick against which anything of worth in South Africa is judged if not against a pale male-created yardstick? Are the elite’s suits bought from Nigeria or Italy? Is there such a thing as a Ghanian IPod? Do they fly Air Kenya or British Airways? Do they go to Mali for their holidays or to Paris?
A South African business journalist refers to “the African No” – “a jumbled melee of endless meetings, unreturned phone calls and ignored e-mails”. Compare this approach with the white world. The United States for example accounts for 4,5% of the world’s population but 25% of the world’s GDP. When people flee their terrible countries they try for Europe, Australia and other pale male bastions. They don’t want to emigrate to Zambia or the Sudan.
A cursory trawl through South Africa’s productive sector sees pale males as police divers, as rescue helicopter pilots, as paramedics, as the donors to charities, as the bedrock of the taxpayer base, as the underpinners of the medical profession, the service industry, the banking and the mining sector. The country is divided into the producers and the consumers, and we know on which side of the divide the pale male sits.
Virtually all of the productive farms that were handed over to ANC supporters under the government’s land redistribution policy failed: a pithy example of pale male producers and ANC-created destruction.
It is a pity that more media space is not given to a frank analysis of who are the drivers of the South African economy, instead of to those who talk about nationalization, about transformation, about white racism and so-called privilege. South Africans might get a clearer picture of who is really important in the grand scheme of things, as opposed to those who can talk the leg off an iron pot, hold press conferences, fly all over the world first class, endlessly discuss turnaround strategies and blame everyone but themselves for their shortcomings. Within ten years, South Africa’s social spending (including huge government employee wage bills) will exceed government revenue. Employee compensation as a share of government income went from 31,7% in 2008 to 44,3% in 2012. South Africa’s pale males are a finite group – even they cannot hope to foot the bill for this parasite profligacy forever.
Maybe then South Africa will value its pale males, but it may be too late.

Yup that BLACK 'racist asshole bigot' has most of it all right, it's you that has it all wrong.
 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 06, 2013, 09:07:29 AM
There is no empirical evidence to show that without the intervention of others in Africa (including pale males), Ms. Mokonyane’s culture would have evolved any further than that of those “lost” tribes one finds in the Amazon and Papua New Guinea.

Congrats for your attitude, K_F.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 06, 2013, 04:52:37 PM
The truth is hard I know..
When we grew up under apartheid to find that the Gov had been lying to us.. it was hard to accept what the world was saying..
but in the end we all (Whites approx 63%) voted to end apartheid... take note, NOT the cANCer or mandela.. yes! the white vote ended apartheid.
It could have gone on to the bitter end.. but it didn't coz we voted.

That is the attitude here.. and we certainly not going to take any more crap, lies and BS like that from anyone.. no matter where it comes from.
Freedom costs
 ;)
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 06, 2013, 06:51:26 PM
Another added note..

Africa, of any continent ,has the most potential any place in the world, but in order for it to be beneficial for it's inhabitants, the inhabitants have to put 'structures' in place and maintain these structures. Priorities on education to the highest standards. social development.. etc ect.. just as in any other 1st world country, maybe modified slightly to fit the african cultures.

There currently are probably a few shining spots around the continent, and a lot of decent and educated people, but almost of it is in 'total darkness' ???

This doesn't happen over millenia by chance, and I could expound umpteen reasons.. but then you'd accuse me of vitriol racism, and ignore the 'facts', and africa will continue on the same path for some more millenia, and ultimate proving it's detractors correct. And in the meantime outside companies will come extract it's wealth by supporting puppet states that will continue to murder their own populace.

And you say you're helping from the outside keeping racist bigot enslaving white 'colonialists' who have stolen 'their land', at bay or to be hung on 'trees of justice' - the very same people who live there and know and understand its people more than you'd do in 10 lifetimes. Nope I'm afraid people like yourself (and all other justified outsiders) are the biggest problem for any developing nation.

Nice to have such a justified attitude.

Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 06, 2013, 07:08:13 PM
In short: Apartheid was so much better, and we should convince the Dutch to conquer the rest of Africa, for the sake of the black people, of course :t
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 06, 2013, 07:11:39 PM
that's not a religious point, but a political question.

No. I wasn't talking about politics. I was talking about the beliefs and interpretations of a forum member.

I understand that the term "religion" is a bit unfortunate, because some people will always imply a metaphysical being with this term. From this point of view, the term "religion" could be replaced by the more neutral term "ideology including a promise of salvation", but this sounds awful in English ( on the contrary, the German term "Ideologie mit Heilsversprechen" sounds quite nicely ). Also, I'm in doubt whether the forum member that I was talking to will prefer this replacement - since he obviously believes that his thinking is based on "facts" and "hard science".
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 06, 2013, 09:52:06 PM
In short: Apartheid was so much better, and we should convince the Dutch to conquer the rest of Africa, for the sake of the black people, of course :t
You either forget of don't know, that apartheid was bad for the whites as well.. or anybody that spoke up against the state, and there were many... and I'm sure the 'liberation movements' forgot to tell you this, as it's not in their interest !!

You could compare this to the old Russia, or what developed in America under bush (or barrack) where you start talking out against the gov policies. You get an unfriendly visit very quickly - not patriotic you know  ;)

Having blinkers only makes matter worse.

Beside the Dutch, we could also ask the French, German, British, Spanish, Portuguese, Italy... might as well make it a big Old Boys party..
 :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 07, 2013, 12:48:54 AM
I have long been a fan of a small bit of German metaphysics ALA Emmanuel Kant with his description "antinomies". Literally it said with any range of divergent views on a given subject, at best only one can be right but all of them can be wrong.  :P
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 07, 2013, 03:39:59 AM
Andreas,

I understand that the term "religion" is a bit unfortunate, because some people will always imply a metaphysical being with this term. From this point of view, the term "religion" could be replaced by the more neutral term "ideology including a promise of salvation", but this sounds awful in English ( on the contrary, the German term "Ideologie mit Heilsversprechen" sounds quite nicely ). Also, I'm in doubt whether the forum member that I was talking to will prefer this replacement - since he obviously believes that his thinking is based on "facts" and "hard science".

you're right: some parts of the discussion are ideologically blinded.

K_F,

what makes your point of view so harsh and implacable? Do you really think that the old Apartheid system was the right way? What about the criminal activities in that time, for example against Steve Biko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko), to name only this case?

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 07, 2013, 05:33:51 PM
Quote
K_F,
..what makes your point of view so harsh and implacable? Do you really think that the old Apartheid system was the right way? What about the criminal activities in that time, for example against Steve Biko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko), to name only this case?
In that video, and myself, nowhere has it been said that apartheid was the right way..
Exposing the 'un-exposable' or 'what the world doesn't want to hear', shouldn't be construed as support for the old way.

With regard to ZA (the original topic), the point is that mandela and his cronies have stuffed up bad, and continues to do so.
We come from apartheid.. we know how bad it is and it's now worse than apartheid.

What the previous regime did, is already mild in comparison to what the cANCer are doing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marikana_miners%27_strike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marikana_miners%27_strike)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O56d-xd8AuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O56d-xd8AuM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botEmqHMHu4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botEmqHMHu4)

.. and this is but a few examples in a 'civilised' part of africa, run by your world hero, nelson mandela and/or his cronies..  what a verybad joke.

No I'm afraid the world must get over apartheid.. there's a big new problem, well actually not new one.. it's always been there and that pastor Manning is just exposing for the blind eyes (He is a crackpot..and 'entertaining', but he's 'on target' with the ZA problem). So in the end something can be done about it, to make things better - but then a lot of people don't want that ?

Many times I mention to my family that Steve Biko would turn in his grave if he knew this is what he died for?
Hopefully in the next election, 2014, we'll see the cANCer losing significant support to the DA, eventually losing altogether, and then maybe we can institute a civil 'war' crimes tribunal on the ex state 'dickheads'.
 ;)
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: nidud on November 07, 2013, 10:59:27 PM
deleted
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 08, 2013, 02:54:33 AM
Quote
This could be applied by military intervention, sanctions and alienation from global communities, or disarmament of local criminals.
:biggrin:
Nah.. I'm afraid none of that will work..
Foreign military intervention always falters in africa - The USA will tell you that.
Sanctions... they never worked during apartheid.. I know  ;), and it only hurts the people that it intended to help, and will play into the hands of the intended targets.

I think what it required is more awareness to the ZA cANCer problem, maybe pointing it out to those overseas who support the cANCer.
You don't have to target nelson (he's past it), but less support for such things in his name, as it's just a BS thing from the cANCer to bolster support $$$ for their 'rotten lying functions'.
The new party, the DA is the best bet (I'm not political at all) as it a mix of all peoples (maybe the true rainbow nation), with higher education standards than the current regime - They'll will make the difference.

As soon as a clear world message is sent the better.

I thank you for your time
 :t
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 08, 2013, 07:58:51 PM
There are two levels of racisms. One is the local idiot ...

Nidud, your rants are awful ... you sound like a Sunday School teacher ... I'm confused because I thought this job has got extinct in "modern" Norway...  :bgrin:

IMO it may very well be possible that racism is useful - to facilitate separation of mankind in different populations so it's ensured that there is some competition - thus increasing genetic variability of the human genom and make the species more "healthy".

I understand that this "biologistic" view is fiercly rejected by those folks who work very hard to become "beautiful souls" and to make the world a "better place for all people" - I guess that you can't help thinking this way if you believe in this weird delusion called "social progress".
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Farabi on November 08, 2013, 08:44:38 PM
It seems the video is a self critique for the black people. White people has been dominating from a milenia not only because of their strength, but also wisdowm and knowledge. I know about dark age, and I think each race has it own problem within this area. Only wisdom, knowledge, that can bring back sovereignity for a person.

But I personally believe that there is one God, creating us all to serve Him alone, and He told us to compete on good deeds, not hurting each others. I think we get used to this proverb, "How you want to be treated, and you treat it to another self, that is good deeds". Racism has no place in Indonesia, we once fell into racism too on the late of 1990, but people has understand that it was has no value and it was not our root culture. In my daily life, I had lots of friends with different of skin colors, I like to have friend with white man in here, because I used to had friend with white skin since I was still a kids, they very nice to me. Even I though I was had a white skin, and alway love a girls with white skin, even my wife had a white skin while Im brown.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 09, 2013, 12:26:13 AM
 :biggrin:
White skin is not that bad  ;)

We have a saying here.. Once you go black, you're not going back.

Another little 'dark' secret if you will.
During the height of apartheid, it was well known that the arch-supporters of the regime were having affairs across the colour line - at thing they termed as immoral = The Immorality Act.
We had fun with the Afrikaner about this saying that they had 'black blood' in them - we'd call them 7 percenters. This used to freak them out - anything to get at them.
There were cross colour line relationships going on all the time here, as we were not as separated, as is made out in the old newsreels and papers.

And if you think the Afrikaner was/is bad.. don't.. the core of the anti-apartheid movement in the country came out of deep Afrikanerdom = this is equivalent to saying some of the klu-klux clan rejected their own ideas of racism - makes you think.

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: nidud on November 09, 2013, 04:04:47 AM
deleted
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 09, 2013, 04:42:15 AM
IMO it may very well be possible that racism is useful - to facilitate separation of mankind in different populations so it's ensured that there is some competition - thus increasing genetic variability of the human genom and make the species more "healthy".

From a purely technocratic point of view, the argument may help to understand why there is genetic variety. However, it has been used by Hitler's "scientists" to justify the slaughtering of Jews, Roma and various other groups. Since then, not even your friend Hayek (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=364.msg26179#msg26179) would have used this argument any more.

Evolutionary and social progress comes from co-operation, not from competition. Being intelligent and strong means nothing if you don't have the capacity to collaborate.

Not so sure about the evolutionary part (it's controversial), but certainly a Wild West mentality does no longer fit into a modern society. There is a reason why big companies want teamworkers, not lonely fighters. Which does not exclude a certain, healthy dose of competition, but that has nothing to do with the dumb racism that shines through in, for example, that black priest's ramblings. If God had a more credible representation on Earth, he would have been excommunicated immediately ;-)
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 09, 2013, 08:03:18 PM
However, it has been used by Hitler's "scientists" to justify the slaughtering of Jews, Roma and various other groups. Since then, not even your friend Hayek (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=364.msg26179#msg26179) would have used this argument any more.

Godwin's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law))  has stroken once again.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 09, 2013, 08:33:29 PM
Ok, so have I got it right, "Only a NAZI would say something like that."
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 09, 2013, 10:08:10 PM
Andreas,

Godwin's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law))  has stroken once again.  :icon_mrgreen:

it's not a question of Godwin's law. You've written:
IMO it may very well be possible that racism is useful - to facilitate separation of mankind in different populations so it's ensured that there is some competition - thus increasing genetic variability of the human genom and make the species more "healthy".

Your "useful racism" reminds me fatal to the arguments of Paul Broca in the 19th Century. This extremely poor methods has well described Steven Jay Gould in his book The Mismeasure of Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man). Another example is the affair of Sir Cyril Burt, who falsified data to substantiate its position. That list can be continued without any problems. This then results in a considerable number of biologistic scammers and counterfeiters. From these murky sources (Broca, Agassiz, Morton etc), the  ideology of the Nazis fed. This is well known and has nothing to do with manslaughter arguments.

And for Jochen: There was nothing new or original to the ideology of the Nazis. All their arguments they have stolen from various sites and mixed in eclectic ways. Even their symbol, the swastika, they stole from the Sanskrit.

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 10, 2013, 12:05:25 AM
Your "useful racism" reminds me fatal ...

Gunther, I'm afraid you are a little confused. I agree that "racism" and "racial ideology" ( in German = Rassenkunde? ) share a common linguistic root - and that too much "consumption" of the latter may lead to the first. But besides this analogy these terms are very different beasts. I'd like to go into details and start to teach the differences between "racism may be useful..." and "racial ideology may be useful...", but...

... the verb "to teach" brings me to my second criticism:  you share the very same little flaw with my friend Nidud: you sound like a teacher ( Ok, I admit that I know - from your own words - that you actually are one ). Teacher is a nice and good job, no question about that, but  just don't forget that you are not talking to little kids in this forum.  :bgrin:

Quote
This is well known and has nothing to do with manslaughter arguments.

Sorry, but in what context did I use the term "manslaughter"?


Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 10, 2013, 12:45:20 AM
There is an interesting inverse of Godwin's law. What happens if the situation described actually mirrors behaviour characterised in the Nazi era ? Godwin's law acts as a sanitising method against such comparisons.

In much the same way as "conspiracy theory" was delegated to the nonsense arena where disagreement with conventional wisdom was passed off in this manner, performing acts (by governments of whatever persuasion) that are of the same nature as the Nazi regime gets passed off as an example of Godwin's law.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 10, 2013, 03:06:19 AM
Andreas,

Sorry, but in what context did I use the term "manslaughter"?

I would have written better thought-terminating cliché, which is a phrase intended to kill any further discussion or a plain and simple  "Totschlagsargument" that kills every discussion. I hope that's clear.

... the verb "to teach" brings me to my second criticism:  you share the very same little flaw with my friend Nidud: you sound like a teacher ( Ok, I admit that I know - from your own words - that you actually are one ). Teacher is a nice and good job, no question about that, but  just don't forget that you are not talking to little kids in this forum.  :bgrin:

I don't forget that I'm not talking to little kids. Furthermore, I know that no one is a pillar of wisdom. But your term racism is useful sounds suspiciously. To put that in a nutshell has nothing to do with school mastery. It's very simple: If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck then it is a duck. In that sense is racism only racism (with a cultural background, of course). But your distinction between racism and racial ideology sounds like splitting hairs. I think these are two sides of the same coin. And again: The "scientific" and "intellectual" background of the "Theory" are lies and deception.

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 10, 2013, 08:47:15 PM
But your term racism is useful sounds suspiciously.

Sorry, but I assume a lot of so-called destructive or "evil" things useful: hate, greed, fear, mistrust, envy, death, pain ... and also xenophobia or chauvinism. If any of those emotions or attitudes wouldn't be useful, it simply would never had a chance to evolve.

Of course is is allowed to ask if all of those things are still useful in a "modern" society. But in such a case you most likely will also have to ask (yourself?) if it is in man's power to "eliminate" them. I'm not a believer in humanism, so I don't think that you can create a "new" and "better" man by education ( or manipulation ).

I never made a secret of my convictions - the citation in my signature does actually reveal a lot - if you have a certain level of education in philosophy.




Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 10, 2013, 09:18:11 PM
I never made a secret of my convictions - the citation in my signature does actually reveal a lot

It does, it does... but remember Nietzsche is dead, while you are still alive. It would be a loss for society (well, at least for the assembly community) if a talented person like you got darwinised by somebody with a genetically superior muscle dotation - there are still some bugs to be fixed in JWasm (http://sourceforge.net/p/jwasm/bugs/), right?
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 10, 2013, 10:42:35 PM
Andreas,

I never made a secret of my convictions - the citation in my signature does actually reveal a lot - if you have a certain level of education in philosophy.

you can be sure that Thus Spoke Zarathustra (Also sprach Zarathustra) is in my bookshelf, side by side with Aristoteles, Sokrates, Schopenhauer, Kant, Hegel and a lot of others. By the way, Philosophy is a good catchword:
I'm not a believer in humanism, so I don't think that you can create a "new" and "better" man by education ( or manipulation ).
It's not a question of creation a "new" and "better" man; all these attempts are failed. In my point of view is that the right approach:

Quote
If man is shaped by environment, his environment must be made human. (Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände menschlich bilden.) MECW, p. 263

By the way, it was Nietzsche, who wrote of the Übermensch (German for Overman, Overhuman, Above-Human, Superman, Super-human). Do you recognize the contradiction or is that your kind of the transvaluation of values (Umwertung aller Werte)?

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 10, 2013, 11:04:24 PM
Jochen,

It does, it does... but remember Nietzsche is dead, while you are still alive. It would be a loss for society (well, at least for the assembly community) if a talented person like you got darwinised by somebody with a genetically superior muscle dotation - there are still some bugs to be fixed in JWasm (http://sourceforge.net/p/jwasm/bugs/), right?

it's not a good argument that Nietzsche is dead. Nietzsche is still worth reading, which widens the mental horizon. For detailed studies, I recommend his religion critical texts, for example Menschliches, Allzumenschliches. Ein Buch für freie Geister. (http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/3252/1) Moreover, we're inside the Colosseum. That Andreas deals with Philosophy, also shows that he isn't a professional idiot. He is interested in these issues. Your reference to jWasm is inappropriate at this point, because Andreas makes a good job by maintaining the assembler and other useful tools in his spare time.

Gunther 
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: jj2007 on November 11, 2013, 03:27:50 AM
Your reference to jWasm is inappropriate at this point, because Andreas makes a good job by maintaining the assembler and other useful tools in his spare time.

Gunther

OMG, I forgot the irony tags again ::)

So I will explain it: One problem with evolution is that it is blind for beauty, intelligence and similar valuable features. So it might well happen to Andreas that somebody with a better "fit" (e.g. more muscles) pushes him down à la Nietzsche, and thus the World loses JWasm. I would be very sad if that happens. Evolution can be real evil, y'know.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 11, 2013, 04:00:20 AM
This has been an interesting debate for interesting reasons, three different practitioners from a similar cultural background yet with different philosophical dispositions. Long ago I studied philosophy both at university and personally as I found it to be a fascinating subject but I went in the direction of British empiricism rather than the metaphysics of the continent. While having suffered most on the historical forms of philosophy I leant in the direction of David Hume, Bertrand Russell and Quine and did a lot of work on the 20th century debate on linguistic philosophy from Wittgenstein through the Vienna school up to its end at Oxford with a few practitioners like Strawson in the middle to late 1950s.

I was particularly a fan of Russell and Whitehead with Principia but interestingly enough learned a system of logic that used Tarski's notation rather than Russell's dots. Logic is an excellent tool if you know its boundaries and here Kurt Godel was influential in determining the limits to formal logic. I have very little feel for social philosophy as it appears to be too far from the basics of consistency and proof. The action as I have seen it is in the area of metaphilosophical comparison, basically comparing multiple philosophical systems rather than being an adherent to any one in particular.

At the risk of offending some, I tend to see Nietzsche in relation to philosophy as I see Van Gogh in relation to art, probably talented but screwloose.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 11, 2013, 05:45:48 AM
Steve,

This has been an interesting debate for interesting reasons, three different practitioners from a similar cultural background yet with different philosophical dispositions. Long ago I studied philosophy both at university and personally as I found it to be a fascinating subject but I went in the direction of British empiricism rather than the metaphysics of the continent. While having suffered most on the historical forms of philosophy I leant in the direction of David Hume, Bertrand Russell and Quine and did a lot of work on the 20th century debate on linguistic philosophy from Wittgenstein through the Vienna school up to its end at Oxford with a few practitioners like Strawson in the middle to late 1950s.

that's an interesting point. But it seems to me that there isn't a large contradiction between the philosophical direction in England and the continent. David Hume, for example,  suggested on Immanuel Kant  in his Critique of Pure Reason (Kritik der reinen Vernunft). Hume was a pioneer of the European Enlightenment. Wittgenstein was also in the tradition of the Enlightenment. By the way, Wittgenstein was a distant cousin (Großcousin) from Friedrich August von Hayek (we've come to full circle). And another savory note: By the support of Bertrand Russell,  Wittgenstein became a member of the secret society Cambridge Apostles. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Apostles) This later developed into the famous, infamous Cambridge Five. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five) Graham Greene wrote about that; but also in John le Carré's Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy one can find the reverberation. But again, it's only a marginalia of our discussion.

I was particularly a fan of Russell and Whitehead with Principia but interestingly enough learned a system of logic that used Tarski's notation rather than Russell's dots. Logic is an excellent tool if you know its boundaries and here Kurt Godel was influential in determining the limits to formal logic. I have very little feel for social philosophy as it appears to be too far from the basics of consistency and proof. The action as I have seen it is in the area of metaphilosophical comparison, basically comparing multiple philosophical systems rather than being an adherent to any one in particular.

Russell and Whitehead wanted to build the mathematics with clear axiomatic basis and they've found: Russell's paradox. Cantor and Hilbert were not amused. That was funny. For an explanation of the human society, formal logic isn't enough. Gödel came later; he dealt the death blow to Hilbert's formalism. But Gödel's end in Princeton was tragic.

Gunther 
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 11, 2013, 07:08:11 PM
Quote
If man is shaped by environment, his environment must be made human. (Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände menschlich bilden.) MECW, p. 263

Well, let's see if I'm able to say something positive about this theory ... it is somewhat logical ... but the problem with logical theories is that they are usually just tautologies ( if all swans are white, then you won't find a black one ).  :bgrin:

The other positive thing that comes into my mind is that it's an epitome of the still strong belief in human reason during the first half of the nineteenth century - and if there's a time when this belief was somewhat justified it's the 19th century.

However, putting mathematical or historical viewpoints aside, it's just a strong expression of hubris - the (failed) experiments that were based on this thinking did waste a good amount of resources and did ruin a lot of lives. I cannot prove it, of course, but the amount of damage caused by "good intention"-plans seems to be worse than the damage caused by "malicious" ideologies.

So for me the only aspect worth thinking about this "theory" is why it hasn't been buried yet.  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote
By the way, it was Nietzsche, who wrote of the Übermensch (German for Overman, Overhuman, Above-Human, Superman, Super-human). Do you recognize the contradiction ... ?

Sorry, I don't understand - contradiction between what?
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 11, 2013, 09:34:49 PM
I would not worry too much about tautological implication, its other name is "deduction".  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Farabi on November 12, 2013, 10:18:59 AM
Anger usefull for case of emergency like wars, even only for short period, in the age of sword, it was enough to protect yourself, better than nothing. One slash, miss, better than nothing, youre killed, or enslaved, your enemy call. Hate usefull for anyone who hurted you so bad so you dont keep beeing hurted again and again and again and youre not dead. What about racism, well, you will not like it if youre not the strongest race. I heard racism good for identifying a dissease or genetical defections like illness, and many things but as a AIDS carrier for example, even youre not AIDS from born, I bet you wont like it if people treat you so bad or discriminate you. You may want to try to live here and proclaim your self as an HIV positive, I bet you will disagree with racism anymore.

Even though there could be some use on racism, there is no need to use racism as a tools to survive, just like anger. Sometime beeing patient make your survival chance higher. With wisdom, your survival can turn to 10,000% higher than anyone, people will ask you to be their leader and gave you their money, and that is how the spiritual leader here started their carrier. Some managing money from donations, and some are scaming their follower for lust and moneys, no one know. But it shown that, racism is not everything for the survival chance. Cooperation is a lot better for surviving.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 12, 2013, 10:21:06 PM
Andreas,

sorry for the delay, but I've a strong cold. Nevertheless I'll try to explain some points.

Quote
By the way, it was Nietzsche, who wrote of the Übermensch (German for Overman, Overhuman, Above-Human, Superman, Super-human). Do you recognize the contradiction ... ?

Sorry, I don't understand - contradiction between what?

That's easy. Nietzsche took over the conception of the Übermensch by Helvetius (homme supérieur). This Übermensch (Superman, new man, neuer Mensch) has a spiritual as well as a bilogical importance in Nietzsche's writings (for example in Also sprach Zarathustra, Menschliches, Allzumenschliches). You write as a follower of Nietzsche's philosophy:
Quote
... so I don't think that you can create a "new" and "better" man by education ( or manipulation ). (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=2559.msg27065#msg27065)

This is an obvious contradiction, isn't it?

The other positive thing that comes into my mind is that it's an epitome of the still strong belief in human reason during the first half of the nineteenth century - and if there's a time when this belief was somewhat justified it's the 19th century.

But Nietzsche is also a child of the 19th century. Where is the quality difference?

You should read the quote:
Quote
If man is shaped by environment, his environment must be made human. (Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände menschlich bilden.) MECW, p. 263
in the context with another quote from the same authors:
Quote
In place of the old society, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
(An die Stelle der alten Gesellschaft tritt eine Assoziation, worin die freie Entwicklung eines jeden die Bedingung für die freie Entwicklung aller ist.)
These are not so bad ideas, although they are from the 19th century.

Well, let's see if I'm able to say something positive about this theory ... it is somewhat logical ... but the problem with logical theories is that they are usually just tautologies ( if all swans are white, then you won't find a black one ).  :bgrin:

No, that isn't a tautology, but only a fallacy, because black swans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan) exists. In the propositional logic is a tautology a powerful tool, because it's always true. A OR (NOT A) is a classic tautology, but also the indirect proof, which is often used in mathematics.

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 13, 2013, 01:08:55 AM
Paradox is in fact a very useful tool. Russell produced a class inclusion paradox with the barber, earlier version were the paradox of the liar and the slightly later set theory version by Grelling and the use a a class inclusion paradox is that if any argument can validly derive a paradox from its axioms, then it is broken.

Now the contribution of Kurt Godel to the area of symbolic logic was in fact very important in that while Russell and Whitehead produced the first complete truth function calculus, from Wittgenstein's Tractatus onwards there was a movement to try and construct an "ideal language" where ambiguity was impossible using the basic mechanics of Russell and Whitehead's Principia Mathematica. Godel proved that for any given set of axioms you could produce a finite set of conclusions yet in the same category there were true statements that could not be derived from the axioms. Now if the set of axioms were increased the same problem occurred but on a larger scale.

Once Godel's proof was digested, people like Rudolph Carnap, Schlick and most of the others in the linguistic movement abandoned the idea as unworkable. A few like A.J. Ayer and P.F. Strawson struggled on but it was dead by about 1960. The win with Godel was that mechanistic systems based of a finite set of axioms were proven to be incomplete.
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 13, 2013, 02:29:40 AM
Steve,

The win with Godel was that mechanistic systems based of a finite set of axioms were proven to be incomplete.

absolutely true. You can have two different things:


You can't have both: Completeness and Consistency. To show this was Gödel's merit.
Russell produced a class inclusion paradox with the barber, earlier version were the paradox of the liar and the slightly later set theory version by Grelling and the use a a class inclusion paradox is that if any argument can validly derive a paradox from its axioms, then it is broken.
...
A few like A.J. Ayer and P.F. Strawson struggled on but it was dead by about 1960. The win with Godel was that mechanistic systems based of a finite set of axioms were proven to be incomplete.
Of course. We have the classic form with All Cretans lie. The problem arises when that a Cretan says. Or another version: Never take advice from a stranger. What happens if a stranger says that? One can also find a lot of paradoxes (long before Grelling and Nelson) by Bernhard Bolzano in his Paradoxes of the infinite.

In parallel to construct an "ideal language" there have been attempts to construct an "ideal mathematics". The goal was: All mathematical propositions should follow without contradictions from some axioms. To name a few: Russel and Whitehead, Hilbert's program, Bourbaki. No project has been completed; all projects failed. That has to do with two things:


Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: japheth on November 13, 2013, 06:14:31 AM
That's easy. Nietzsche took over the conception of the Übermensch by Helvetius (homme supérieur). This Übermensch (Superman, new man, neuer Mensch) has a spiritual as well as a bilogical importance in Nietzsche's writings

I disagree - there's no "biological importance" - Nietzsche is interested only in culture and ethics.

Quote
... so I don't think that you can create a "new" and "better" man by education ( or manipulation ). (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=2559.msg27065#msg27065)
...
This is an obvious contradiction, isn't it?

No - the "new" / "better" was put in quotes for a reason - because that "new"/"better" referred to a being where certain "destructive" attitudes ( i.e. racism ) have been "eliminated" or "reduced" - surely nothing that Nietzsche has considered for his übermensch idea.

btw, I would not call myself a follower - I'm well aware of certain obsessions in N.'s thinking.

Quote
These are not so bad ideas, although they are from the 19th century.

I really hate  to repeat myself ... hubris.

Quote
No, that isn't a tautology, ...

I actually didn't claim that the "if man... "-sentence IS a tautology - actually, it's a normative statement "disguised" as a theory  -  OTOH, my "if all swans..."  sentence definitely IS a tautology.

btw; your style is still awful, has become even worse - we're not in school here!
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: hutch-- on November 13, 2013, 08:44:55 AM
Aha, the distinctions of quantifier calculus. ALL/NONE versus SOME.

If all swans are white then black swans are either not black or not swans. The universal quantifier "ALL" generates the problem here.

If SOME swan are black then NOT(ALL swans are white). The "EXISTENTIAL" quantifier "SOME" reduces ALL to either false or SOME.

You can comfortably live with,

All swans are birds.        -----  swans are a member of the class of birds.
Some birds are black.
Some swans are black.
Some black birds are not swans.
Some swans are not black.

and of course the tautology,

All swans are swans.

The class inclusion paradox form is a misuse of the universal quantifier ALL.

"ALL things I say are false".

If this statement is true, then it is false. If it is false then its true.

You can live with,

Some things I say are false.
I have been known to tell a white lie.
Most things I say are true.
etc ....

Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 13, 2013, 07:39:33 PM
Next time you feel sorry for an african country and are about to empty your pockets... remember this..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238017/UK-gives-19million-aid-South-Africa--president-spends-17-5million-palace.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238017/UK-gives-19million-aid-South-Africa--president-spends-17-5million-palace.html)

.. it's your money that keeps criminals like these in power.. with no money they have no 'power' to corrupt.
:-)
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: dedndave on November 13, 2013, 09:17:15 PM
i think they'll find a way - diamond mines and oil fields

as for the logic session....
i try to keep the quantum version in mind:
every possible case occurs, at some place, at some time   :P
i.e. all white and black swans wind up being pink with purple polka-dots, at some point
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 13, 2013, 10:47:27 PM
Hi K_F,

.. it's your money that keeps criminals like these in power.. with no money they have no 'power' to corrupt.
:-)
yes, it is. But that here (http://www.wanttoknow.info/bankingfactsinformationcorruption) is also our money and that has in most cases nothing to do with the color of the skin. And the magnitude of this fraud is exorbitant.

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 14, 2013, 01:55:47 AM
While I agree that there is corruption worldwide, african continent corruption is bad to the extreme, and they can ill afford it.

I agree whole heartedly with jj2007 friends who ask the world to stop helping africa in the way of cash, as it results in more suffering at the hands of despots in control.
 ;)
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: dedndave on November 14, 2013, 04:20:41 AM
it's not really "foriegn aide", it's a "legal form of bribery"
the US gov't bribes countries to be allies
prime example is North Korea
they misbehave - the bribery payments stop
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 14, 2013, 06:33:50 AM
Hi K_F,

While I agree that there is corruption worldwide, african continent corruption is bad to the extreme, and they can ill afford it.

Are you really sure? I would recommend the following movie. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1615147/)

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: dedndave on November 14, 2013, 07:37:37 AM
and another, "The International"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0963178/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0963178/)
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 14, 2013, 08:11:26 AM
Or the following interesting documentation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYWfQC9RpkA) (unfortunately only in German and French, but some of the banksters speak English). Very interesting. They're talking about Billions and Billions (our money), not only 19 millions.

Of course, that 17 million pound palace is also a serious problem. But compared to the banking crisis these are Peanuts. So, let's not go overboard.

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 14, 2013, 05:59:09 PM
It all starts small.. and only gets bigger.. if you let it ?
:)
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 14, 2013, 08:38:41 PM
Hi K_F,

It all starts small.. and only gets bigger.. if you let it ?
:)

yes, that's right. But main things first ist also true. If we're talking about Billions and Millions, it's clear what the main thing is, isn't it?

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: K_F on November 15, 2013, 12:17:04 AM
You're digressing..

Squandering small donations (in comparison) that can make make a difference for those living below the bread line. is no better than those who steal billions in large institutions.. They're criminals, one and the same.. and jail is the place for them.. nothing like going back 'home'.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 16, 2013, 09:25:40 PM
Hi K_F,

I aggree with you if you say: Resist the beginnings. On the other hand, if we're looking around the world, for example, US, Western Europe, Australia or elsewhere we've the phenomenon that big parts of the ruling political class are also corrupt and rotten. That's not limited to the African continent and again, it has nothing to do with the color of the skin.

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: dedndave on November 16, 2013, 10:48:42 PM
true enough
here in the US, we had a disaster in New Orleans
New Orleans has a few wealthy people (mostly white - some black) and many poor (mostly black)

from the way the US gov't handled the disaster, it may have appeared that they were racially (un)motivated
a few years later, the New England states (northern east coast) had a similar disaster

by reading between the lines, you can see that race has nothing to do with it
they discriminate against poor people
it doesn't matter what color your skin is
but, your balance sheet gets all the attention in the world
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Magnum on November 17, 2013, 06:13:45 AM
The preacher is being honest.

He said black people have a problem.

And so does everyone else in every nation.

I think he is asking people to do less complaining and help others and be productive.

Just my 5 cents.

Andy

Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Gunther on November 17, 2013, 06:30:33 AM
Andy,

The preacher is being honest.

He said black people have a problem. ...

Only a little footnote: That might be honest or not, but this is no longer the question. The now-discussed question is posed in message #55 ff.

Gunther
Title: Re: Never a True-er word spoken about ZA than this clip
Post by: Magnum on November 17, 2013, 10:04:02 AM
This has absolutely, positively no relevance to the video posted.

Talk about getting off topic.  :dazzled:

Andy

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Next time you feel sorry for an african country and are about to empty your pockets... remember this..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238017/UK-gives-19million-aid-South-Africa--president-spends-17-5million-palace.html

.. it's your money that keeps criminals like these in power.. with no money they have no 'power' to corrupt.
:-)