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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: hutch-- on July 28, 2012, 08:52:39 PM

Title: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: hutch-- on July 28, 2012, 08:52:39 PM
I had heard of this one a long time ago, interesting to see an interview with the old fella that drafted the compulsory gun ownership law and even more interesting to see the drop in crime rate. Has the anti-gun lobby (gun grabbers) been feeding us bullsh*t all these years ?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/weapon-of-no-choice-20120727-22zdg.html
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on July 28, 2012, 09:45:24 PM
Old West mentality in the 21st century?

Here’s what easy access to guns often cause in America. Needless deaths by crazy people!

Quote
While Rainey was walking down the drive-way, Roop pulled up in his pickup truck and asked why Rainey was at his house. Rainey explained that he was selling steak and seafood. The witness said Roop then pulled out a black handgun and shot Rainey. As Rainey lay on the ground, Roop fired another bullet into the back of his head. Roop later told police that he shot Rainey in the head “for effect”. . .
I’ll kill anybody that steps on my property (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/26/florida-man-kills-door-to-door-salesman-i%E2%80%99ll-kill-anybody-that-steps-on-my-property/#.UBIHQtV334E.reddit)


Where I live there is a nut and his wife who has his property plastered with no trespassing signs but we locals know he's a nut. So far he hasn’t shot any door to door salesman. . .yet!
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Gunther on July 28, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
Here’s what easy access to guns often cause in America. Needless deaths by crazy people!

Quote
While Rainey was walking down the drive-way, Roop pulled up in his pickup truck and asked why Rainey was at his house. Rainey explained that he was selling steak and seafood. The witness said Roop then pulled out a black handgun and shot Rainey. As Rainey lay on the ground, Roop fired another bullet into the back of his head. Roop later told police that he shot Rainey in the head “for effect”. . .
I’ll kill anybody that steps on my property (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/26/florida-man-kills-door-to-door-salesman-i%E2%80%99ll-kill-anybody-that-steps-on-my-property/#.UBIHQtV334E.reddit)

What a crazy story! Unbelievable.

Where I live there is a nut and his wife who has his property plastered with no trespassing signs but we locals know he's a nut. So far he hasn’t shot any door to door salesman. . .yet!

So far.

Gunther
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: hutch-- on July 28, 2012, 10:01:58 PM
 :biggrin:

Bill,

That sounds like a surefire formula on how to get rid of door to door salesmen, when they knock on your door, tell them that this guy is only pretending with all of his signs and really loves people who are trying to sell him something. Now you may be able to slip the guy some extra ammo in the post as long as he does not shoot the postman.  :P
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: sinsi on July 28, 2012, 10:02:46 PM
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-4-most-meaningless-arguments-against-gun-control/
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on July 28, 2012, 10:11:19 PM
Easy access to automobiles causes many times more deaths than easy access to guns does.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on July 28, 2012, 10:32:18 PM
Easy access to automobiles causes many times more deaths than easy access to guns does.

Come on Michael that argument has always been absurd. Vehicles cause accidental deaths and though there are accidental deaths by guns generally gun deaths are deliberate, be it suicidal or murder. If all guns disappeared from private ownership would we implode as a nation? Hardly! Take all vehicles away and this nation would die. Vehicles especially in America are needed on a daily bases. To compare the number of accidental vehicle deaths to deliberate gun deaths is in truth being disingenuous.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/44479
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on July 28, 2012, 10:35:57 PM
Steve,

I have a good friend who makes his living door to door. I once asked him if he fears some nut shooting him, he tells me it has entered his mind but he has a family to feed and what he does for a living is what he’s best at.

sinsi,

That was a great read and I agree with all of Cody’s views on the subject. :icon14:
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on July 28, 2012, 10:41:19 PM
I’ll kill anybody that steps on my property (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/26/florida-man-kills-door-to-door-salesman-i%E2%80%99ll-kill-anybody-that-steps-on-my-property/#.UBIHQtV334E.reddit)
Add toilet seats to the things to regulate:
http://quadeershakur.blogspot.com/2012/06/man-beat-wife-to-death-with-toilet-seat.html

Actually regulate is a misnomer here, even Kennesaw Georgia had gun regulations and limits on who could own them. Neither am I against regulation. Using it as a byword for outlawing is another issue.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Ryan on July 28, 2012, 11:34:36 PM
Great article Hutch!  :icon14:
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: dedndave on July 29, 2012, 04:42:19 AM
you don't often hear of these guys going off the handle and shooting a bunch of people, either
nor do you hear about them shooting someone who violates their space
that's because - noone violates their space - lol

i can see the upside - but i can see a downside, as well
some people simply shouldn't have a gun
they may be more likely to shoot themselves in the foot (or worse) than to shoot an actual trespasser
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on July 29, 2012, 08:58:09 AM
Easy access to automobiles causes many times more deaths than easy access to guns does.
Come on Michael that argument has always been absurd. Vehicles cause accidental deaths and though there are accidental deaths by guns generally gun deaths are deliberate, be it suicidal or murder.

Very few deaths are caused directly by a vehicle - it’s usually the fault of the driver. In addition to the occasional deaths that are obviously murder, it could well be argued that anyone killed by a drunk driver, or by an intentionally reckless driver, was murdered. And the same goes for children killed by an irresponsible parent who doesn’t believe in safety belts and safety seats.

And I can’t see how the suicide statistics have any meaning here.

Quote
If all guns disappeared from private ownership would we implode as a nation? Hardly!

If it could be done by magic I think we would probably be OK. But doing it by outlawing private ownership of guns, if that is even possible with our constitution, would have some very serious consequences IMO. There are too many people here who will not willingly give up their guns. And while the anti-gun crowd may scoff at it, the phrase “when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns” comes right to the point.

Quote
Take all vehicles away and this nation would die. Vehicles especially in America are needed on a daily bases.

How did you go from:

Quote
Easy access to automobiles causes many times more deaths than easy access to guns does.

To taking all vehicles away? I’m sure that you have noticed the number of incompetent drivers that we have, many of whom would be incompetent even if they were not driving with one hand on the bottom of the wheel and a cell phone in the other. And the fatal accident reports where the young man who caused the accident was doing something incredibly stupid and dangerous. And the accident reports where children died, that for some reason fail to mention whether or not the children were wearing safety belts or in safety seats. And the idiot psychopaths who will cross 4 lanes so they can get right up behind a motorcycle and stay there for miles. These sorts of people need to have their access to vehicles removed.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: carlos on July 29, 2012, 10:07:40 AM
. And while the anti-gun crowd may scoff at it, the phrase “when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns” comes right to the point.

For many Americans, this phrase is an excercise in "what if" scenario,  for us Mexicans, it is a sad truth,  since 1970, weapons had been "regulated", and since 1994 EZLN uprising, is almost Imposible or a comon guy to own a gun,  unles you belong to a cartel "sicarios"

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: hutch-- on July 29, 2012, 01:45:34 PM
A situation I would like to see is that every time another loonie takes a gun and starts shooting at unarmed people (usually with fatal consequences) that the people who insist that the targets are safer being disarmed be held accountable for the effects that they have lobbied for. There is something blatantly obvious about a pile of unarmed people being an easy target for one loonie with a gun. The example in Sweden surely must jump up and bite you as to the sheer stupidity of insisting that we are all safer being unarmed targets for any loonie that can get his/her hands on a gun.

The idiot fringe logic is to try to ensure that no-one ever has a gun but this is sheer fantasy in that guns have been available for some hundreds of years and it would be near impossible to ever remove them all from any society. This stupidity ensures that guns will remain in the hands of drug dealers, would be terrorists, people who conduct armed holdups, cold blooded killers and of course, the occasional unhinged loonie that has some imaginary score to settle with a pile of unarmed innocent people.

No risk violent crime is the result of disarming an entire society, an armed loonie can safely kill a whole host of innocent people because the wowsers insist on disarming the innocent. It only takes one armed person to prevent another mass shooting and this is exactly what the gun grabbers don't want. More mass shootings justify their bleating about how evil guns are.

In days of old there were armed police to protect society but as is the case with multiple mass shootings, no police were present when the shootings occurred and even if they were near by, they did nothing to prevent the carnage.

I am still of the view that the gun grabbers are political in their intent, a disarmed society is easier to control if it has no means of resistence and correspondingly, easier to shoot if they cannot shoot back. Public safety has nothing to do with gun control, it is an issue of political control only.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on July 29, 2012, 03:46:36 PM
If it was, even in principle, possible to fully control guns then there might, within the context of these criminals, be some justification to the argument under present circumstances. Only, so long as ACE hardware exist, I can have a gun. Even a fully automatic one with over a thousand rounds. Perhaps not as accurate, but as deadly as a continuous shotgun blast.

If guns are outright outlawed then the manufacture and distribution of guns will take on the same character as the drug trade. The more severe the penalty for getting caught, the more incentive it creates to kill to defend this enterprise, and you can forget any notion that the general population is anything but a pig shoot if it serves their purposes.

Even in the best case scenario, where criminals are not the issue at all, can you guarantee that there will never be any point in history when people  have to defend yourself from being killed legally? In fact it was just recently signed into law that assassinations of American citizens is legal. Just a few years ago that would have seemed so absurd as to be laughable, yet here we are. Certainly it's something that should be dealt with in the legal system, rather than guns. It simply doesn't even come close to warranting that kind of response at this time, but what assurances can you give that it never will at any point in the distant future?

Simply taking the drug trade away from the criminals, by giving it legitimate regulated channels, will not only save millions more lives (yes millions), it would save even more millions from ruined lives for getting caught doing no more than many of our elected presidents have done in their youth. Even an entirely successful outlawing of all guns would compare like a grain of sand to the beach. In fact drug laws/penalties are what makes the gun statistics look so awful, while insane asshats, like this latest shooter, gets all the press for justifying making things worse.

Laws toughened beyond some point makes those partaking in the activity more deadly. Nothing can EVER be made to go away simply on the grounds of passing a law against it. The law must balance the risk ratio so as to discourage certain things without increasing the risk imposed on the rest of us when we come in contact with those partaking in such behaviors. The gun control lobby doesn't seem to care anything about any such balance. I can't count the number of times I would have likely been shot if the law made the penalty for the things I witnesses too high. Your not even safe hiking national forest, for reasons unrelated to any gun law.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on July 29, 2012, 08:11:41 PM
To taking all vehicles away? I’m sure that you have noticed the number of incompetent drivers that we have, many of whom would be incompetent even if they were not driving with one hand on the bottom of the wheel and a cell phone in the other.

Ok, if we are going to use that tired old argument in comparing guns to cars why do states actively try to do something about death and injury from vehicles but do little to nothing about regulating gun ownership and the death and injuries they cause?

We ban cell phone use while driving; it’s against the law to drive a vehicle while using a cell phone here in PA and Ohio. No problem enacting that law. We have harsh penalties for drunk driving even if you don't hurt anyone. No problem. Required registration of any vehicle on the road. No problem. Required vehicle safety checks or yearly inspections. No problem there. Required insurance and taxes for owning a vehicle. No problem. Education programs about the dangers of drunk or distracted driving. No problem. Drivers training and required exams to be a licensed driver. No problem.

But talk of any restriction on the ownership of a gun and the gun lovers scream “Hell No!” One other difference between a vehicle and a gun, one is designed for transportation the other is designed to do but one thing, and that is to kill!
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on July 29, 2012, 09:07:25 PM
But talk of any restriction on the ownership of a gun and the gun lovers scream “Hell No!” One other difference between a vehicle and a gun, one is designed for transportation the other is designed to do but one thing, and that is to kill!
Ok, let's forget the effectively facetious implication that no such regulations exist, have existed, and have evolved over time in both directions, and talk about the specifics of these restrictions. What specific set of regulations would you like? We've had more extensive bans on assault weapons, which you previously mentioned, in the past. It didn't get us out of these kinds of murders. These kinds of killing sprees are nothing new. At one time we just didn't hear too much about such events unless they were relatively close nearby. What kind of evidence can you bring to the table to support the notion it would make us, even a little, safer? Pictures of kids posing with guns and labeling gun owners hicks doesn't qualify. How much safer, using real numbers, can you expect any such regulations you might have in mind to make us?

How do you address the fact that the national average gun death rate has almost no bearing on any individuals risk of being shot? For instance, the average law abiding citizen only has a risk of about 1.5 per 100,000 people. Live in the inner cities that risk skyrockets. Partake in the dealings of those predisposed to those activities that engender violence and it skyrockets again over that second group. Average it all together and you get an awful sounding number that means nothing to anybody. Certain activities impose risk factors some people that put the risk factor closer to 1 per 100 within that group. Meaningfully addressing street gang issues could be thousands of times more effective at reducing these numbers without ever even mentioning guns.

So if you have any particular regulations you want addressed fine. But merely complaining about the lack of debate on some undefined set of regulations is in fact facetious, and rightfully gives opponents the impression that it is NOT regulations being argued for, but the outright outlawing of guns. In fact, historically gun control lobby got a head start exactly because people were not at all adverse to some reasonable regulations. Only  the particular regulations chosen where not even chosen by the control lobby. They were chosen by others to appease the control lobby. Only the gun control lobby was never happy. Either because some citizens were still allowed to own guns or the penalties weren't extreme enough. Don't know really because these arguments never center around any particular regulations, only that no amount regulations are enough. Hence today you are seeing a public backlash from this facetious notion that we want no regulations whatsoever.

So unless you will state the following in clear terms you are not even arguing in good faith: What specific restrictions, or regulations that define them, would be sufficient to resolve your issues with the lack of regulations? Note: This is not about 'some' particular regulation you would like to see extended now, this is asking what limits to such regulations would you find acceptable? It's a whole different beast when you start thinking in terms of limits.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on July 29, 2012, 09:46:02 PM
Here are the kind of numbers that really NEED to be thought about (fully referenced):
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Quote
* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[12]
[...]
* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]

And this:
Quote
* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]
 
• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]
[...]
* A 2002 U.S. Justice Department study of 272,111 felons released from state prisons in 1994 found that within three years of their release:
 
• at least 67.5% had been arrested for committing a new offense
• at least 21.6% had been arrested for committing a new violent offense
• these former inmates had been charged with committing at least 2,871 new homicides, 2,444 new rapes, 3,151 other new sexual assaults, 2,362 new kidnappings, 21,245 new robberies, 54,604 new assaults, and 13,854 other new violent crimes[31]

Now given that:
Quote
* Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008
and considering:
Quote
* A 2002 U.S. Justice Department study of 272,111 felons released from state prisons in 1994 found that within three years of their release:
 
• at least 67.5% had been arrested for committing a new offense
• at least 21.6% had been arrested for committing a new violent offense
• these former inmates had been charged with committing at least 2,871 new homicides, 2,444 new rapes, 3,151 other new sexual assaults, 2,362 new kidnappings, 21,245 new robberies, 54,604 new assaults, and 13,854 other new violent crimes[31]

We have a rough estimate that 17 to 18% of murders are committed by people let out of prison in just the last 3 years. How many more of those murders, that went unresolved or got innocent people convicted, are this same group of people responsible for?

Quote
* Of 1,662 murders committed in New York City during 2003-2005, more than 90% were committed by people with criminal records.[32]

Yet the gun control lobby pushes any incidence involving any gun into one big pile of numbers, just like police grouping every traffic accident into their numbers to argue how much risk they face from criminals, as if that's at all meaningful. Talk specific gun control issues if you wish, I'm all ears. But don't be trying to feed me BS pretending it's an argument. Statistics is a wonderful tool that can often even provide causation. Yet any given statistic only defines correlation, which is NOT causation. Grouping unrelated crap, like kids posing with guns, is just flat out facetious.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Ryan on July 29, 2012, 09:56:49 PM
We ban cell phone use while driving; it’s against the law to drive a vehicle while using a cell phone here in PA and Ohio.
Where do you get your facts on Ohio?  They're wrong...

http://handsfreeinfo.com/ohio-cell-phone-laws-legislation

The new law isn't even in effect yet.  It doesn't go into effect until August 30.

For those that don't want to follow the link, texting is banned for adults, but it is only a secondary offense, meaning a person can't be stopped solely for texting; there has to be a primary violation.  Texting for drivers under the age of 18 is a primary offense.

The city of Beachwood has a tougher law.  All cell phone and laptop use is a primary offense.  Their law has already gone into effect.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on July 29, 2012, 10:11:28 PM
These cell phone laws will save a lot more lives than (almost) any gun law ever has. Obviously going back to legal guns duels would qualify as more counterproductive.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on July 30, 2012, 12:54:11 AM
Guns do not fall out of the sky into the hands of criminals; too often crime guns come from gun dealers in states that stubbornly refuse to enact common sense lifesaving gun laws. Every day guns flow out of states with weak gun laws which then too often end up victimizing families in states that are doing their best to protect their residents. It is quite clear to anyone with a brain that states with the weakest gun laws are the exporters of death and injury. ATF data, available on its website, provides information on the source states of US crime guns by state. Their data shows that states with weak gun laws have a crime gun export rate nine times higher than states with strong gun laws.

Statistics show that states with higher gun ownership and weak gun laws lead the nation in gun deaths rates per 100,000 people. For example Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, Mississippi and Nevada have household gun ownership rates from 31.5 percent to 60.6 percent and gun death rates of 16.5 per 100,000 to 19.5 per 100,000. In comparison states with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws such as Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey and New York, with household gun ownership rates from 9.7 percent to 18.1 percent have gun death rates of 2.8 per 100,000 to 5.2 per 100,000.

The fact is stronger gun laws do save lives!

But gun lovers will continue to cling to their guns like a six year old does to a Teddy Bear, all the while spouting silly platitudes such as "guns don't kill people" or "criminals will get a gun regardless" or “cars kill more people then guns” while more and more innocent people are murdered by gun wielding maniacs. They will continue to worship the gun as their lord and savior and continue willingly to sacrifice tens of thousands of innocent American lives at the altar of their holy temple.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on July 30, 2012, 03:00:57 AM
Guns do not fall out of the sky into the hands of criminals;
Drugs don't fall out of the sky in the hands of criminals either. The fact that these drugs are entirely outlawed hasn't slowed the drugs in the hands of criminals one iota. What gives?

Their data shows that states with weak gun laws have a crime gun export rate nine times higher than states with strong gun laws.
Well naturally. Companies move were they have the cheapest operating cost too, just like I buy my gas where it's cheapest. In way way is that evidence of causality? It would be delusional to think that just by tightening up equally in all states the criminals will suddenly go, bummer, no more guns. No, they take over the manufacture and distribution for themselves!

Statistics show that states with higher gun ownership and weak gun laws lead the nation in gun deaths rates per 100,000 people. For example Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, Mississippi and Nevada have household gun ownership rates from 31.5 percent to 60.6 percent and gun death rates of 16.5 per 100,000 to 19.5 per 100,000.
Perhaps you didn't read my spill above about correlation verses causation, or perhaps it just doesn't suit your needs to think through. Where is your evidence that it's not the crime rate that drives the gun ownership, rather than the gun ownership driving the crime? How many of these gun deaths are purely defensive against the crime criminals? How many are accidental? How many are gang related? You are just grouping, by your own terminology, "gun deaths" in one big pot irrespective of causal factors.

In comparison states with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws such as Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey and New York, with household gun ownership rates from 9.7 percent to 18.1 percent have gun death rates of 2.8 per 100,000 to 5.2 per 100,000.
And what are the legal differences here? Rhode Island is a must issue state, where no qualified individual may be denied a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Connecticut is effectively the same way. The rest share a "may issue" status with with many listed in your high crime group. Alabama, from your first list, is a may issue state. In fact there is no correlation between the legal status of guns and these states.

Why did you cherry pick these particular states anyway? I can explain why, as these states are sorted for the explicit purpose of said argument. Sad that even cherry picked states fail to show correlations between gun laws, as opposed to ownership, but it's the best they could jury rig the argument.

The fact is stronger gun laws do save lives!
If you would only look at the evidence it would be obvious you have one of those theory dependent facts... How can you claim a fact when you are arguing gun laws, then used cherry picked numbers to show correlations with gun ownership without mentioning how the correlation completely fails against gun "laws"? I mean for real!!!
Since you apparently will not go read yourself, check these out:
Source: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
(http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/dc.png)
(http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/england.png)
(http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/chicago.png)
(http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/chicago_handguns.png)

But gun lovers will continue to cling to their guns like a six year old does to a Teddy Bear, all the while spouting silly platitudes such as "guns don't kill people" or "criminals will get a gun regardless" or “cars kill more people then guns” while more and more innocent people are murdered by gun wielding maniacs. They will continue to worship the gun as their lord and savior and continue willingly to sacrifice tens of thousands of innocent American lives at the altar of their holy temple.
Now there you go with the same BS without ever even bothering to hand wave my objections and request. I don't own a gun and it's highly unlikely that I ever will, but this kind of BS is.. uhh.. BS.

It didn't take bullets to fill your bucket full of holes.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on July 30, 2012, 03:28:00 AM
Quote
The fact is stronger gun laws do save lives!
I got something else to say about this claim. Let's forget causation and only worry about whether even the correlation is real. If the correlation was real there would be no need to hand pick 4 or 5 states to pit against another few states in making a failed attempt at a correlation. Establishing a correlation would be mathematically trivial.

Let's look at another correlation that is very real, but likely has very little to do with causation. Those same high gun death states you mention are also the most religious states. The low gun death states are the least religious. Unlike your failed correlation, this correlation is completely stable going from city to city, county to county, state to state, and nation to nation. No cherry picking is needed as it's a mathematical triviality to demonstrate at every scale. Yet the variables are too many and too complex for any intellectually honest person to claim religiosity is a causal mechanism. Yet here are are with a FAILED correlation, yet you still want to trumpet it as a "fact". It's total BS is what it is...
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on July 30, 2012, 04:01:42 AM
Ok, if we are going to use that tired old argument in comparing guns to cars why do states actively try to do something about death and injury from vehicles but do little to nothing about regulating gun ownership and the death and injuries they cause?

I presented an obvious example of a commonplace machine that is involved in more preventable injuries and deaths than guns are. Instead of going after guns and the smaller number of injuries and deaths associated with them, why aren’t you campaigning to force the states to enact more effective vehicle laws?
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on July 30, 2012, 04:43:10 AM
why aren’t you campaigning to force the states to enact more effective vehicle laws?

I have Michael and did my part in getting PA's new law against text messaging while driving which was approved by Gov. Tom Corbett on November 2011 and took effect back March 8, 2012. What I hoped for was a full ban on any use of a cell phone while operating a vehicle especially after I myself on my motorcycle was creamed by a teenager who was on a cell phone. PA has very strict driving laws. PennDOT maintains a driving record for every licensed driver in Pennsylvania. Points are added to a driving record when a driver is found guilty of driving violations. When any driving record reaches 11 or more points the driver's license will automatically be suspended up to a year.

*

For all those who would rather do something to stop the proliferation of assault weapons and excessive collections of ammunitions here in the US (that is instead of hugging that Teddy Bear you love so much) go to the link below and sign the "Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence" petition. Help stop the senseless killings!

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Gunther on July 31, 2012, 07:53:12 AM
For all those who would rather do something to stop the proliferation of assault weapons and excessive collections of ammunitions here in the US (that is instead of hugging that Teddy Bear you love so much) go to the link below and sign the "Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence" petition. Help stop the senseless killings!

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

I'm not an American and living in Berlin, Germany. We haven't such awful gun shootings here, because we've very hard restrictions for the possession of firearms. I like the "Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence" and would sign immediately.

Gunther
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: npnw on July 31, 2012, 01:56:31 PM
I believe in the right to bear arms. However, I don't understand the need for 30 round clips to protect your family or go hunting?

Assault weapons, and clips larger than 10 rounds should be banned. I know the argument is the criminals will always get it. Well that would be good, then we could tell criminals from honest citizens. Hey, that guy has 10 30 round clips.... I think he's a criminal.  No... he just shoots squirrels ... and dogs... and birds... and vehicles with people using their cell phones  :biggrin:

Of course at our house we have weapons with belt fed ammunition  :biggrin:

Seriously,  I don't see the need for large clips, and full auto weapons.

By the way, we had a guy who shot several people for being on his lawn. He chased them down the alley and shot them.

He was nuts.  The cops visit him regularly. 

It would have been hard for anyone to stop the guy in the theater since he had bulletproof vest, and face protection.  Unless they had automatic weapons, with teflon rounds to pierce the body armor, there is little anyone could have done armed against this guy. He prepared for this for 2 months or more.  That's the problem when you have a determined lunatic, unless you catch him before hand. Which they might have done if they had a database that tracked all the weapons. I mean come on everyone needs to buy what 5 guns in a month. That would have been a red flag especially the amount of firepower. Assault rifle, two automatic pistols, 12 gauge rifle? I think... with extended clips, plus 6000 rounds of ammo.




Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on July 31, 2012, 03:02:59 PM
It would have been hard for anyone to stop the guy in the theater since he had bulletproof vest, and face protection.  Unless they had automatic weapons, with teflon rounds to pierce the body armor, there is little anyone could have done armed against this guy.

Assuming that you were using a handgun with some reasonable stopping power, even shooting him in the vest would have interrupted what he was doing, and shooting him in the face would have stopped him. And the teflon-coated bullet stuff is a myth.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: npnw on July 31, 2012, 03:54:24 PM
Whatever the bullet proof pierceing ammo was. I don't remember if it was teflon, or what.

They had guys dressed in the bullet proof armor, and the cops had to fire several thousand rounds of 5.56 and they hit one in the eye, and the other killed himself if I remember right.  It was a big shoot out in California. the cops ended up going to a gun store and getting the M16 rifles to fire back at the bank robbers.  At the time they had 38 or 9 millimeter pistols, shotguns, but no heavy weapons. 

I've never owned the ammo that pierces the ballistics vests so don't know if its true or not.

I like the old M1 30-06 armor pierceing rounds, but kinda hard to conceal that  :biggrin:

Someone made the comment that if you did fire at him you would have made yourself a target.  I agree with that statement. Of course if it gets your family and other people out safe it would be worth it... I just don't know how it would have worked out. 
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: npnw on July 31, 2012, 04:14:47 PM
Quote
Covered head to toe in body armor,
http://www.mcdonoughvoice.com/featured/x442229567/Batman-and-the-death-of-make-believe (http://www.mcdonoughvoice.com/featured/x442229567/Batman-and-the-death-of-make-believe)

http://www.safeguardarmor.com/tacpro-tactical/ (http://www.safeguardarmor.com/tacpro-tactical/)

Here is the Bank Robbery article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on July 31, 2012, 07:20:41 PM
Holmes was not only wearing full body armor he also tossed gas canisters that obscured everyone’s vision and created chaos in a near blackened theater. To believe a theater full of armed civilians firing willy-nilly may have stopped that madman is absurd, it would more likely have taken out more innocent movie goers. Most concealed hand gun carriers are poorly trained and the belief that one of them taking out a determined gunman in the dark is a NRA induced fantasy. Again as to guns and cars, in Virginia for example, with one of the heaviest base of armed civilians in the nation, gun related deaths outnumber motor vehicle demises. Virginia is not alone, federal government studies show nine other states have gun deaths that out number those involving motor vehicles.

Gun Deaths Exceed Motor Vehicle Deaths in 10 States (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/gun-deaths-exceed-motor-v_b_1536793.html)

Unfortunately current federal law only requires criminal background checks for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for about 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not engaged in the business of selling firearms to sell guns without a license and without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check. Though commonly referred to as the “Gun Show Loophole,” the private sales includes guns sold at gun shows through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere in the United States. The fact is too many Americans are obsessed with gun ownership and the extremely easy availability of them to anyone is total insanity!

(http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/show15.jpg) (http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/GunShow2.jpg)

http://www.bradycampaign.org/



Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: hutch-- on August 01, 2012, 12:15:54 PM
It must be a matter of taste, if I could ever think of a use for an auto loader rifle, it would be an FN 7.62 that the OZ military used to use about 30 years ago, very similar to the older m16 that the US military used to use. The catch is there is little in OZ that you would hunt with a rifle of this type, the government did some culling of the introduce water buffalo in the Northern territory some years ago and the FN (SLR) was the tool of choice from helicopter.

As far as hand guns go, I personally see little use for them apart from security tasks as they do not perform as well as any reasonable rifle, the main purpose of hand guns is they can be concealed which limits their legal usage. In OZ you had to have a very good reason to own a handgun but until about 30 years ago rifle ownership was very common. There was some obvious deterrent value in an unknown number of houses have a rifle and it did make violent crime a risky number, especially in country areas where there was little chance of any external help.

We have an emerging problem here in OZ with the increase in the number of people who are migrants from west Africa, a rise in the incidence of armed gangs with machetes committing violent armed robberies of houses and with terrible outcomes, victims hack to pieces with a machete. A .303 or similar would solve this problem but our gun grabber laws in OZ remove the victim's right to defend themselves effectively.

In my youth when I was young and foolish I used to specialise in hunting wild pigs on foot (none of these pansies that hunted from the back of a truck) where you needed a big bore gun to stop a big boar stone dead the first shot, a 44 Winchester did the job fine, a 444 marlin was even better but they were a pig to use and kicked like a mule. The real nut cases used to use a 12 guage solid but that was a bit of overkill. I never have and never will hunt indiginous animals, poor bastards have in some places been hunted to extinction.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on August 01, 2012, 01:40:04 PM
The fact is too many Americans are obsessed with gun ownership and the extremely easy availability of them to anyone is total insanity!

And another fact is that there are too many Americans obsessed with outlawing guns, and given our reality that also would be total insanity.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on August 01, 2012, 03:40:10 PM
Unfortunately current federal law only requires criminal background checks for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for about 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not engaged in the business of selling firearms to sell guns without a license and without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check. Though commonly referred to as the “Gun Show Loophole,” the private sales includes guns sold at gun shows through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere in the United States. The fact is too many Americans are obsessed with gun ownership and the extremely easy availability of them to anyone is total insanity!

First off you are falsely implying that federal law is the only restrictions in play here. You could have denied this implication, except that you then chose do the math to label ALL private sales of guns as unregulated and without paperwork factually proving you intended these false claims. In fact the guns sold in 17 states cannot qualifier as part of your 40% of gun sales, even though you included them, because there are very definite requirements for background check. Many states even have explicit background check requirements for all private person to person sales. Federal has traditional been limited in the extent they can regulate private person to person sales due their regulatory power being derived from the interstate commerce clause. States therefore have far more power to control these kinds of transactions, and many do even though you falsely  included these regulated sales in your estimate of unregulated sales, just because they were regulated under powers not explicitly under federal jurisdiction.

If you want an honest debate on what regulations should be implemented you must first define the limits on how far these regulations may go. Otherwise I have no grounds for believing any argument presented is more than a pretense to obtain the unstated. Now, when your numbers are factually false you have crossed the line from suspicious to unadulterated BS.

Fortunately, most of us are still willing to hear reasonable arguments and enact reasonable regulations based thereon. Unfortunate, filling the debate full of BS noise like this works against the goal of hashing out reasonable regulations, leaving in its wake inefficient/ineffective regulations with a constituency too disgusted with this kind of BS, that you engendered here, to even hear reasonable arguments.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on August 01, 2012, 03:42:40 PM
The fact is too many Americans are obsessed with gun ownership and the extremely easy availability of them to anyone is total insanity!

Oops: First half of above post.

And another fact is that there are too many Americans obsessed with outlawing guns, and given our reality that also would be total insanity.
Perfectly said.

To believe a theater full of armed civilians firing willy-nilly may have stopped that madman is absurd, it would more likely have taken out more innocent movie goers.
Obviously. Doesn't mean nobody could have been in a position to stop him reasonably safely, but the details of any particular incidence is irrelevant to the determination of of what set of laws/regulations would best reduce the risk to people as a whole. Even outright outlawing all guns for all purposes with a death penalty to those that violate the law would still fail to protect some people in particular circumstances. What ifs as they relate to single incidences is BS on both sides.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: xanatose on August 01, 2012, 07:55:20 PM
Why the obsession of taking guns from the people? If at all, having citizens being able to protect themselves would be cheaper to maintain order.  Less police needed.

Criminals, including government sponsored ones, go for the easy target. If they have to choose between a possibly armed target and an unarmed target. They will choose the unarmed target. If there where no possible unarmed target, chances are they wouldn't even do the shooting. This are not valiant people, this are cowards that prey on the weak.

That said:

In the USA (and ANY OTHER REPUBLIC) the power that legitimatizes government comes from its constitution. ANYTHING that is outside the constitution is not legal for government to do. And (at least in the USA) the constitution does not grant rights, neither does government. The constitution RECOGNIZES rights. ANY government stops obeying its constitution becomes an illegitimate one.

What part of "The right to bear arms shall not be infringed." do you people seem to not understand?  Don't like it, then start the process of amending the constitution, but good luck with that. The majority of of people of the USA, know why this was placed. And is not for the hunting bullshit that Obama tries to sell. The reason for it is that if government became a tyranny the people have the means to take it out.

Don't believe me, and believe the Obama bullshit interpretation that it was for hunting? Then explain why Thomas Jefferson wrote this:

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” (Quoting Cesare Beccaria)

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Finally, and this is from me:

Freedom of speech is useless without the right to bear arms. If the people cannot take out government, then whats to stop government to do whatever they want and just ignore the people?

Just look at Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and just about any other dictator. The first thing they do is to take is your ability to fight back. The second thing this people do is to kill their opposition.  And of course, they always come with the message that is for your own protection.

BEGIN_SARCASM
But no, Obama couldn't possibly become a dictator.  Never mind the NDAA legalizing murder and incarceration of USA citizens inside the USA  without need of a trial. Never mind the various attempts at censoring the Internet. Never mind the Fast and Furious. Nor should you mind that Guantanamo is still fully functional. We should blindly trust our leader, thats the American way. After all anyone who says otherwise, must be a terrorist or a racist.

And the 2nd amendment was about hunting, because Obama says so.  Never mind Washington, Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Ben Franklin, and just about anyone that signed that outdated piece of paper.

END_SARCASM
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: jj2007 on August 01, 2012, 08:22:12 PM
...explain why Thomas Jefferson wrote this:

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Repeat that a couple of times here or elsewhere in public, and Homeland Security will become your new friends.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on August 01, 2012, 10:22:50 PM
What xanatose said is extremely important even if I don't see NDAA legalizing murder and incarceration in itself bad enough at present to warrant overreaction. As I previously said, the odds that government would get this bad in any given generation may be fairly minimal, but if that power is invested in government it WILL happen sooner or later.

Historically we maintained a government that feared us enough that it became the most benign body with which to invest powers. Too many people mis-attribute this benignness as a structural product of our form of government. Absolutely not so. In the long run it will remain (mostly) benign only so long as it lacks the power to do anything else. If the NDAA laws stand sooner or later our grandchildren will pay a price that makes some homicidal idiot in a movie theater seem like a walk in the park.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 01, 2012, 11:30:04 PM
Often we hear gun lovers compare auto deaths to gun deaths. Well fine, so tell me why we can’t have gun-ownership licenses just like we have driver's licenses and pilot licenses and fishing licenses and hunting licenses and so on? I think gun-ownership licenses should require a written as well as a proper gun-use exam. Gun training needs to be a must upon any gun purchase. I think gun education in high school just like we have driver's education if one intends on being a gun owner. Perhaps some form of liability insurance should also go along with gun-ownership. If you own an instrument capable of so easily killing someone why not require one to have gun owner insurance?

I’m a hunter and an avid one since the age of 12. I own guns yet I support gun control laws. For hunters like me hunting isn’t about the gun it’s about wildlife, a clean kill, and the land that sustains our wildlife. I don't want to pry anyone's guns away. What I do want and what I think we need are sensible gun control laws. Not to take anyone's guns away but to make buying one more responsible. Again I say, I am not against gun ownership but why does anyone need to own an assault rifle such as an AK-47 or M-16 or an AR-15, that or thousands of rounds of ammunitions?

It is fear by gun lovers and the power of the NRA that drives opposition to gun control (that Teddy Bear syndrome I’ve spoke of) even though an American is 50% more likely to be shot dead by his or her own hand than to be shot dead by a criminal assailant. More than 30,000 Americans injure themselves with guns every year because of stupidity and the lack of knowledge on the proper use of gun-ownership. A gun in the house is not a guarantee of personal security it is instead, to often, a standing invitation to family tragedy.
 
Over the last two plus centuries in the public interest we've enacted hundreds of laws that limit various freedoms enumerated in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. For example you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. I personally believe that a law written in the 18th Century when there were no Police, no FBI, or no standing army is badly in need of some modification. With the inevitable re-election of President Obama hopefully we as Americans can approach the subject of reasonable gun control. Something must be done!

(http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/guns1.jpg) (http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/guns3.jpg)

http://www.bradycampaign.org/
 


Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: hutch-- on August 01, 2012, 11:44:27 PM
Bill,

Let me see if I have got you correctly, you support private gun ownership but want the ownership to be responsible AND you don't support ordinary people owning rapid fire assault style rifles. This would entail the basic concept of machine pistols like an Uzzi and similar.

I think from memory I have seen a formula on this one, no autoloaders that can be set to continuous fire (machine gun style) or that can be easily converted to do the same. How do you go with something like an M16 that can only be fired one shot at a time, (IE: one shot per trigger pull). There is probably enough game in the US to justify using a 3006 or similar ammunition.

I would also be interested to hear what you think of people carrying handguns in public, Dave has mentioned that in Arizona you must display a handgun if you are carrying one, would that do the job for you ?
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 02, 2012, 12:11:19 AM
Steve, I am against all assault type weapon ownership. The only purpose for an assault weapon is to kill people. I’m against even collectors having them because they leave open the means for some nut to steal said weapons.

I am against both openly displayed and concealed handguns. To be blunt I as a hunter dislike hand guns period. All they are good for is to kill people! If a home owner feels the need so badly to protect themselves a 410 single shot or double barrel shotgun would do the job much more efficiently. A 12 gage even better if you can handle one. It’s very hard to miss with a shotgun if an intruder enters your home and much less likely that some other family member could harm themselves as one can with a hand gun.

I would ask you Steve how would you feel for example if you yourself were sitting in a theater or restaurant or wherever and the guy next to you was openly displaying a hand gun. Would you feel more safe?

(http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/m16.jpg)
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on August 02, 2012, 07:03:35 AM
Bill,

Why do your posts on this subject have the feel of a con-job political ad?

You don’t want to take the guns away, but you do want to force gun owners to pay a licensing fee, pass a competency exam, and purchase insurance before exercising their constitutional right to own a gun. Well, if interfering with a constitutional right is OK, instead of doing this to the gun owners and maybe fixing one problem, let’s do it to the voters instead, and fix a bunch of problems.

And you seem to believe that a law can somehow make irresponsible people behave responsibly. We don’t need laws that assume we are all stupid and must be protected from ourselves, by our retarded uncle, who has a long history of not getting any thing right.

And what is “an American is 50% more likely to be shot dead by his or her own hand than to be shot dead by a criminal assailant” supposed to convince us of? That the anti-gun crowd is desperate and grabbing for anything that even looks like it might support their position?




Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: jj2007 on August 02, 2012, 08:50:12 AM
Bill,

Why do your posts on this subject have the feel of a con-job political ad?

You don’t want to take the guns away, but you do want to force gun owners to pay a licensing fee, pass a competency exam, and purchase insurance before exercising their constitutional right to own a gun.

One might ask whether car ownership should also become protected by The Constitution, so that American would no longer have to pass driving license exams, or pay insurance and taxes for their cars ::)
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: dedndave on August 02, 2012, 03:01:41 PM
the way our government is becoming more and more corrupt every day....
i am starting to favor assault weapon ownership
there may come a day when we need to take our country back

as for the AR-15's that you can buy that are single-fire...
you can file down the sear and make it fully automatic fairly easily
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: mywan on August 02, 2012, 06:48:05 PM
as for the AR-15's that you can buy that are single-fire...
you can file down the sear and make it fully automatic fairly easily
I know several retired cops that have done this even at times and places when it was strictly illegal. Though they tended to store the modified pin separately. This works on more than just the AR-15.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 02, 2012, 08:39:05 PM
Bill,

Why do your posts on this subject have the feel of a con-job political ad?

Well Michael you go ahead and see it any way you like. I at least have the balls to speak my mind about the subject of gun-control, be it for or against, with out hiding my identity anonymously as so many do. I’ve met my share of gun lovers during my years of living and the only time people like that have a pair of balls is when they can hug that Teddy Bear they so adore, be it openly or concealed. Pussies, that’s all they are.

Yes I have strong opinions on the subject of guns and if anyone feels the need that badly to shut me up you know who I am and where I live. I get sick of phuking gun lovers who know little about gun ownership the responsibility that goes with owning a gun and the dangers of owning them. I own and maintain two guns; one is a Remington 30-ot-6 with 9 power scope for deer and bear, the other a Remington 12 gauge over and under for small game. I’ve always owned at least two guns for hunting since age 12, so I at least know something about what I speak.

One thing for certain, for every human slaughter by a madman with a gun this country gets closer to doing something about the “too” easy access to gun purchases. It can’t come soon enough as far as I’m concerned. The fact is in homes with hand guns the homicide of a household member is some 3 times more likely to occur than in homes without a hand gun. Owning a shotgun is safer and more practical for home protection if having a gun for protection is what you seek.

We have a real problem in this country when federal law does not prohibit members of terrorist organizations from purchasing or possessing guns. That over a thousand gun background checks for people on terrorist watch lists, some 91% of the gun transactions, were allowed. That near 5,000 gun shows take place in the United States each year where assault type rifles are easily purchased by most anyone. Hell even an ex-con who committed a crime with a gun, once released from prison, can go out and buy a gun.

Something must be done to stop this insanity where most anyone is allowed to own a gun in the United States. Help stop the slaughter and the madness!

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

(http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/guns4.jpg) (http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/guns5.jpg)
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on August 04, 2012, 01:38:27 AM
Well Michael you go ahead and see it any way you like. I at least have the balls to speak my mind about the subject of gun-control, be it for or against, with out hiding my identity anonymously as so many do.

I have absolutely no problem with you having strong opinions and speaking your mind. What I do have a problem with is you promoting your POV by attempting to mislead people, and this is what I was getting at with my “con-job political ad” comment. One good example of this is your posting of the Adam Gadhan quote in another thread:

“America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms. You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle without a background check, and most likely, without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?”

Should I assume that you actually believe this drivel, or that in a post-9/11 world the FBI and BATFE are not closely monitoring gun shows?
 
Another good example is the photos of children posing with assault weapons that you posted in the same thread. You implied that they were children of “gun-loving parents”. They could have been, or the photos could have been fabrications intended to make “gun-loving parents” look bad. This kind of stuff has become SOP for political activists, and the people doing it don’t seem to understand that it works against their credibility.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 04, 2012, 04:04:04 AM
“America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms. You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle without a background check, and most likely, without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?”

Should I assume that you actually believe this drivel, or that in a post-9/11 world the FBI and BATFE are not closely monitoring gun shows?

Michael, are you truly that naïve?

http://youtu.be/baPgr_tw79Q

http://youtu.be/Rbr_rZ2bUZM

http://youtu.be/YQEDvqmAfqg

Tell me something Michael, have you ever been to a gun show and seen gun purchases where no id was given by the buyer or requested by the seller? I have!! Besides that fact what is to stop some white boy from buying an assault rifle then selling it to some terrorist who's only intentions are to kill people with it? I find it incredible that you are that blind about what is happening in this country when it comes to the easy accessibility to weapons!


http://www.bradycampaign.org/

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: jj2007 on August 04, 2012, 04:10:47 AM
... photos of children posing with assault weapons that you posted in the same thread. You implied that they were children of “gun-loving parents”. They could have been, or the photos could have been fabrications intended to make “gun-loving parents” look bad.

Why "look bad"? Why should “gun-loving parents” (and I understand that is the majority in the U.S.) feel ashamed seeing their kids displaying attributes of their constitutional rights? Shouldn't they rather be proud of such photos?
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on August 04, 2012, 06:03:30 AM
Michael, are you truly that naïve?

OK, I’ll try again, “fully automatic assault rifle” = machine gun = long term in federal prison if the buyer or the seller gets caught not doing everything by the book.
 
Why "look bad"? Why should “gun-loving parents” (and I understand that is the majority in the U.S.) feel ashamed seeing their kids displaying attributes of their constitutional rights? Shouldn't they rather be proud of such photos?

I would imagine that some of them would be proud, but I think most people would see them as having a serious mental imbalance, and irresponsible. Perhaps my knowing only upstanding, sane, reasonable, and responsible gun enthusiast has skewed by viewpoint.
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 04, 2012, 08:05:39 AM
Haven't fired many guns in your life have you Michael?

Anyone with any knowledge in the firing of a semi automatic rifle such as the Maadi Egyptian AK-47 as was purchased in the first video link in my above post (with out any id) can bumpfire it making it fire nearly as fast as a full-automatic rifle. Imagine how many people could be killed with one of those things. Insanity!

http://youtu.be/9tJq8pCHqgI
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: hutch-- on August 04, 2012, 03:54:51 PM
Some of the kid photos are either phonies or done as humour. Lets face it, give a 10 year old a full sized 12 guage shotgun and it would knock them over on firing it. My Winchester of old (44 magnum) kicked like a mule and was a reasonably nasty thing to use, I seriously doubt a kid could use it. A lot of assault rifles are genuine pieces of CHYTE, hard to use and bad mannered, a cheap AK47 is not a bad example of a crapheap, then can you imagine a 10 year old picking up a full sized 44 magnum Smith and Wesson, they would have problems holding it in one hand let alone firing it.

I would rather see a kid get taught by his/her parents about guns that learn fantasy scenarios on video games where you run around phony universes shooting anyone in sight. If kids are taught that guns are nasty noisy things that are hard to handle and take skill to use, then they are far safer in a society than a kid who grew up playing stupid video games where human beings were just running targets to shoot.

There is a lot of technique in using guns in hunting situations, my specialty long ago was helping friends on properties to control feral pigs and it was usually done on foot in undergrowth between knee and hip height where wild pigs blended in very well with the scenery. You usually got one clear shot and one more if you understood the reload method of your rifle, a Winchester 94 pattern is reasonably fast to reload with its lever action. I have seen a guy empty a 22 automatic into a big pig and then run and climb a tree. The pig was in bad shape but it was really pissed off about being shot.

I have also seen a guy do a perfect head shot front on to a big pig with a Lee Enfield .303 and the bullet furrowed up the front of its head. he stopped it the next shot. This is why I used a 44 magnum Winchester, they DID go down first shot. Kids taught about using guns in a context like this never do anything stupid, they have to understand the risks and know how to use a gun correctly.

I agree with Bill that many guns should not be in circulation, mainly hand guns and concealable small autoloaders like Uzzis and similar machine pistols, we differ over assault rifles, I mean how do you conceal a full sized M16 going into a picture theatre ? I would support hand gun owners being given the chance to swap their hand guns for rifles that could not be concealed and have it funded by the wowser gun grabber idiot fringe. there was a buy back scheme for assault rifles here in OZ after the Tasmanian massacre but the owners got the short end of the stick and the repayments were short of the actual values.

Now of course there is another factor in play here, these considerations only work on people who accept legal limits on guns, criminals will alway get illegal guns, machine guns, big calibre autoloaders with long range and good scopes, rapid fire hand guns and the like. I mean, can you imagine a sleeper Al Queda terrorist cell embedded in a western county NOT owning a decent arsenal of illegal weapons ? Assault rifles, machine guns ad RPGs ?

When the loonies like this will always have guns, why should the population be disarmed like they were in Sweden when that lunatic killed all of those unprotected people ?
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 04, 2012, 08:34:58 PM
Photos of kids holding guns, believe me I don’t make this stuff up! Gun loving parents think it’s cute to have photos of their kids holding their weapons. This is a pretty common thing to happen here in the states. Parent’s best beware though because in many states you can be arrested for doing so.

http://www.parentfail.com/little-girl-and-a-big-gun/

http://www.dailydump.net/2011/11/gun-club-allows-children-to-pose-with-guns-in-santa-photos/

http://www.myfoxal.com/story/19186155/picture-of-child-with-gun-found-on-phone

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2012/07/23/i-dont-know-you-decide-bjm/

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: dedndave on August 04, 2012, 08:59:40 PM
the ones that get me are the Christmas-themed ones - lol
Jesus would roll over in his grave - oh, i guess he tried that
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on August 05, 2012, 03:42:29 AM
Haven't fired many guns in your life…Anyone with any knowledge…Imagine how many…Insanity!

So IOW, after I pointed out what my drivel claim was based on you could not find any way to refute it. Political BS is by nature not a dependable source of information, it’s typically more or less of a con job. If you seriously expect to do any good with gun control, BS of any flavor is not going to help.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 05, 2012, 06:17:26 AM
Come on Michael I think what I’ve laid out with regard to the insane love this country has to gun ownership and the many factual links I have posted about the fixation that exists here in the US for guns is all true and undeniable. Americas unbelievably easy access to all types of guns of any sort to both criminals and terrorists is clear evidence that we Americans have a real problem. This delusional fantasy that a gun can save you from some madman is absurd, it rarely happens that way. It is nonsense to believe otherwise. But hey, I say to all the gun lovers out there, go ahead and squeeze that Teddy Bear real tight if it makes you feel safe.

 Teach Your Toddler To Shoot A Gun
 (http://www.parentfail.com/teach-your-toddler-to-shoot-a-gun/)


Something must be done to stop this insanity where most anyone is allowed to own a gun in the United States. Help stop the slaughter and the madness!

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: jj2007 on August 05, 2012, 07:18:55 AM
This delusional fantasy that a gun can save you from some madman is absurd, it rarely happens that way.

Quote
According to Federal statistics for every "one" time a handgun is used by a citizen to kill a criminal, 118 innocent people are killed in handgun murders, suicides and accidents.
(from a dubious source (http://www.masmforum.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=786dd40408172108b65a5a36b09c88c0&topic=16504.msg139878#msg139878) but still quite impressing :greensml:)
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: MichaelW on August 05, 2012, 10:44:03 AM
Come on Michael I think what I’ve laid out with regard to the insane love this country has to gun ownership and the many factual links I have posted about the fixation that exists here in the US for guns is all true and undeniable.

Come on Bill, what you see as factual links I see as political propaganda, no better than the political propaganda that is produced by people on the other side of the issue.

Quote
This delusional fantasy that a gun can save you from some madman is absurd, it rarely happens that way. It is nonsense to believe otherwise.

It stands to reason that it would rarely happen that way, because madmen rarely shoot people and the vast majority of people do not carry guns. It is nonsense to expect otherwise. The reality is that a gun can save you, and others, from some madman.

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: hutch-- on August 05, 2012, 11:46:58 AM
The suicide and accident arguments do little to justify the gun grabbers, around the world people commit suicide in many ways apart from guns. A gun may be faster and perhaps in the eye of the person ending their time, more dramatic but the person who jumps off a cliff is just as dead, so is the slit wrists, jumping under a truck or people who hang themselves. Then there are those who overdose on pills or drugs, those who poison themselves and the list goes on forever.

Now with accidents, people have accidents all the time, car prangs is one of them, running over pedestrians, falling off ladders etc etc etc ad infinitem. The gun culture in the US is based on its history, a colony turned into a nation that had its own war of independence, civil war, indian wars, frontier towns, fights over land grabs and a whole host of other things that involved people shooting at each other. Interestingly enough the history in OZ is different, it retained the English legal structure and political system, we have never had internal warfare and while guns are part of our culture, they were mainly for hunting or killing feral animals.

I can go some of the way with Bill in that concealable weapons are mainly used for killing people, same with any rapid fire weapon (I mean, do you hunt rabbits with an Uzzi ?) but we would disagree about autoloader assault rifles as long as they were not concealable.

There is another factor with gun grabbing, it changes the types of weapons available to people who WILL illegally own and use weapons. In a society that allows at least some gun ownership, most illegal usage will be similar weapons but perform blanket bans on gun ownership and the range of weapons illegally brought into the country changes, RPGs, grenade launchers, a whole host of concealable machine guns, rapid fire hand guns, specialised weapons that are truly silent, crossbows, pneumatic propulsion guns (air rifles and pistols [and I don't mean the BB guns that kids used to play with] ).

The problem will not go away by disarming the people who do things legally, it will simple make it easier for people who do not play by the rules. I mean, does anyone seriously thing that an Al Queda terrorist cell give a flying PHUK about legality ?
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Gunther on August 05, 2012, 07:23:22 PM
Teach Your Toddler To Shoot A Gun
 (http://www.parentfail.com/teach-your-toddler-to-shoot-a-gun/)

That's unbelievable.

Gunther
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 05, 2012, 07:28:10 PM
Teach Your Toddler To Shoot A Gun
 (http://www.parentfail.com/teach-your-toddler-to-shoot-a-gun/)

That's unbelievable.

Gunther

American gun loving parents are crazy people Gunther. Have a look at this video.

Only in American! -> Gun crazy kids and gun crazy parents (http://youtu.be/dpNGeyEp5kM)

Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 05, 2012, 07:39:12 PM
A Constitutionalists scholar recently explained to me that the context of the creation of the Second Amendment clearly had nothing to do with individuals running around with their own weapons and everything to do with the balance of authorities over the militias of that time "A well regulated militia".

All the arguments to the contrary rely upon eliding not only the text of the document but its context. The argument that the Second Amendment protects an individuals right to carry firearms is a modern day conception, that is to say, post Civil War.

However, there is Constitutional support for personal possession of firearms but it is not found in the Second Amendment it is found in the Ninth Amendment. And I quote:
Quote
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

This is the same place in the Constitution, by the way, where one would find the "right to privacy" for example. At the time the Constitution was written there where perhaps three types of guns that one could own, a single shot handheld musket, a single shot musket rifle or perhaps a cannon.

Here in America we have taken any right we have to own a gun to the extreme!
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Gunther on August 05, 2012, 07:46:21 PM
American gun loving parents are crazy people Gunther. Have a look at this video.

Only in American! -> Gun crazy kids and gun crazy parents (http://youtu.be/dpNGeyEp5kM)

Bill,

very crazy. It's a little bit like in Africa; there are child soldiers fighting in several civil wars.

Gunther
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 06, 2012, 08:42:52 AM
The gun madness continues here in America. And yet the gun lovers insist "we need more guns!".

Shooting at Sikh temple in Wis., at least 7 dead (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57486965/shooting-at-sikh-temple-in-wis-at-least-7-dead/)

*
Something must be done to stop this insanity where most anyone is allowed to own a gun in the United States. Help stop the slaughter and the madness!

http://www.bradycampaign.org/



Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: dedndave on August 06, 2012, 10:53:54 AM
it's a hard sell in the USA, Bill
remember our roots
the common folk of this country took up arms against a tyrant king to gain our independence
that ideal is at the very foundation of our existance
it may be different in nearly any other country
but, i doubt you'll get a majority to back you, here   :P
Title: Re: Kennesaw Georgia, the solution to gun violence.
Post by: Bill Cravener on August 06, 2012, 09:46:39 PM
What blows the mind Dave is we the American people give these crazy bastards the guns to kill! :icon13: