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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: hutch-- on September 04, 2012, 04:31:34 PM

Title: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: hutch-- on September 04, 2012, 04:31:34 PM
Intruder killed by 92 year old war vet

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/video/2275573728/Intruder-killed-by-92-year-old-war-vet

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: K_F on September 04, 2012, 06:52:20 PM
When I first saw the Uzi gun, I always said that grannies should carry this in their handbags.
It's nice and small and can cut an offender in half with a twitch of the trigger, not to mention any other spectators as it goes out of control... :bgrin:
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on September 04, 2012, 07:27:15 PM
Steve, the guy is 92? Why’d he bother? Seems to me he’s about dead anyway. :biggrin:

Yes occasionally a gun saves a life from an intruder (in this case a 22 rifle) but often the stupidity of handgun ownership kills the innocent and too often that needless death is a child.

Gilroy neighbors mourn little boy's accidental shooting death (http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_21028484/gilroy-neighbors-mourn-little-boys-accidental-shooting-death)

Man sentenced for son's accidental shooting death (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=8743602)

Stepfather charged in accidental shooting death of Woodbridge 4-year-old (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/crime-scene/post/stepfather-charged-in-accidental-shooting-death-of-woodbridge-4-year-old/2012/08/09/426aed2c-e255-11e1-98e7-89d659f9c106_blog.html)

Indiana father accidentally shot dead by 3-year-old son (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/14/us-shooting-indiana-boy-idUSBRE86D0C520120714)

Boy accidentally shot to death by his sister (http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/il-state-news/Boy-accidentally-shot-to-death-by-his-sister-163474206.html)

Harvey police investigate teen's death as accidental shooting (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07-08/news/chi-harvey-police-investigate-teens-death-as-accidental-shooting-20120708_1_accidental-shooting-harvey-police-sandra-alvarado)

Coventry Girl Killed in Accidental Shooting (http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Coventry-Girl-Killed-in-Accidental-Shooting-163892106.html)

Man Charged In Child's Accidental Shooting Death To Stand Trial (http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/man-charged-in-childs-accidental-shooting-death-to/nGkjn/)

Woman killed in accidental shooting when brother drops gun (http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012/06/brothers-questioned-after-woman-is-shot/)

Mom, friend plead not guilty in accidental shooting death of toddler (http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-toddler-killed-from-accidental-selfinflicted-gunshot-at-tacoma-gas-station-20120314,0,183716.story)

Uncle charged in child's accidental shooting death (http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/15391889/police-child-shoots-self-with-gun)

5-year-old Hartsville girl dies in accidental shooting (http://www2.scnow.com/news/pee-dee/2012/jun/25/5-year-old-hartsville-girl-dies-accidental-shootin-ar-4034489/)

Child Dies from Apparent Accidental Shooting in Pooler (http://www2.wsav.com/news/2012/jul/05/10/police-child-shot-pooler-ar-4085161/)

7-year-old died Sunday after being shot by her young sibling on Saturday. (http://www.king5.com/news/local/Child-reportedly-hurt-in-Stanwood-shooting-142211265.html)

Boy, 11, Dies After Accidental Shooting By 8-Year-Old Brother In Harford County (http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/06/04/boy-11-dies-after-shot-by-brother-8-in-harford-co/)

Deaths of two Colorado 5-year-olds spur calls for care with guns (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19628941)

Gun Accidents Kill 500 Kids a Year (http://www.momlogic.com/2008/08/protect_your_kids_from_guns.php)

This is what happens when anyone in America can own a handgun.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Gunther on September 04, 2012, 09:22:17 PM
Hi Bill,

Steve, the guy is 92? Why’d he bother? Seems to me he’s about dead anyway. :biggrin:

Yes occasionally a gun saves a life from an intruder (in this case a 22 rifle) but often the stupidity of handgun ownership kills the innocent and too often that needless death is a child.

Gilroy neighbors mourn little boy's accidental shooting death (http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_21028484/gilroy-neighbors-mourn-little-boys-accidental-shooting-death)

Man sentenced for son's accidental shooting death (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=8743602)

Stepfather charged in accidental shooting death of Woodbridge 4-year-old (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/crime-scene/post/stepfather-charged-in-accidental-shooting-death-of-woodbridge-4-year-old/2012/08/09/426aed2c-e255-11e1-98e7-89d659f9c106_blog.html)

Indiana father accidentally shot dead by 3-year-old son (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/14/us-shooting-indiana-boy-idUSBRE86D0C520120714)

Boy accidentally shot to death by his sister (http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/il-state-news/Boy-accidentally-shot-to-death-by-his-sister-163474206.html)

Harvey police investigate teen's death as accidental shooting (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07-08/news/chi-harvey-police-investigate-teens-death-as-accidental-shooting-20120708_1_accidental-shooting-harvey-police-sandra-alvarado)

Coventry Girl Killed in Accidental Shooting (http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Coventry-Girl-Killed-in-Accidental-Shooting-163892106.html)

Man Charged In Child's Accidental Shooting Death To Stand Trial (http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/man-charged-in-childs-accidental-shooting-death-to/nGkjn/)

Woman killed in accidental shooting when brother drops gun (http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012/06/brothers-questioned-after-woman-is-shot/)

Mom, friend plead not guilty in accidental shooting death of toddler (http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-toddler-killed-from-accidental-selfinflicted-gunshot-at-tacoma-gas-station-20120314,0,183716.story)

Uncle charged in child's accidental shooting death (http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/15391889/police-child-shoots-self-with-gun)

5-year-old Hartsville girl dies in accidental shooting (http://www2.scnow.com/news/pee-dee/2012/jun/25/5-year-old-hartsville-girl-dies-accidental-shootin-ar-4034489/)

Child Dies from Apparent Accidental Shooting in Pooler (http://www2.wsav.com/news/2012/jul/05/10/police-child-shot-pooler-ar-4085161/)

7-year-old died Sunday after being shot by her young sibling on Saturday. (http://www.king5.com/news/local/Child-reportedly-hurt-in-Stanwood-shooting-142211265.html)

Boy, 11, Dies After Accidental Shooting By 8-Year-Old Brother In Harford County (http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/06/04/boy-11-dies-after-shot-by-brother-8-in-harford-co/)

Deaths of two Colorado 5-year-olds spur calls for care with guns (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19628941)

Gun Accidents Kill 500 Kids a Year (http://www.momlogic.com/2008/08/protect_your_kids_from_guns.php)

This is what happens when anyone in America can own a handgun.


I did check every link and all things considered: these are tragedies.

Gunther
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: hutch-- on September 04, 2012, 09:45:50 PM
Bill,

I take your point that it is very unfortunate that kids get killed through stupidity with handguns but I wonder how big the list is of people who get killed by armed intruders when they are not armed themselves. Think of every high profile massacre that could have been stopped by one armed policeman or security guard. That lunatic in Sweden (I think) got 21 years for killing a large number of people yet it could have been stopped by one bullet (in his head) if protection was available.

If these cowards knew that someone would shoot them for trying, there would be far less people being shot at. I guess this is why the old Colts were called "peacemakers".
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on September 04, 2012, 10:26:08 PM
Steve,

I believe I’ve made it quite clear I have nothing against gun ownership other then when it comes to owning a handgun or assault rifle. Your story link above makes it obvious it doesn’t take a handgun to protect yourself. In the US about 80% of firearm homicides and about 70% of firearm suicides are committed using a handgun. I find it incredible, when you compare the US with all other industrialized countries, that so many of us Americans spend our lives in fear.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on September 04, 2012, 10:32:38 PM
What you call fear, I call security.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on September 04, 2012, 10:52:17 PM
What you call fear, I call security.

You need a handgun for “security” because you “fear” an intruder? So in other words, like too many Americans such as yourself, you live in fear.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on September 04, 2012, 10:54:17 PM
I don't fear an intruder when I have security.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on September 04, 2012, 11:02:14 PM
I don't fear an intruder when I have security.

But is it not the "fear" of an intruder that you feel the need for the "security" of owning that handgun?

So again I say, like too many Americans such as yourself, you live in fear.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on September 04, 2012, 11:13:48 PM
Nope.  There are many reasons why people own guns.  It also acts as a deterrent.  It creates fear in the intruder, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: anunitu on September 04, 2012, 11:21:09 PM
I don't have a problem with guns,they are only a tool really. What I really have a problem with is STUPID gun owners,with no safety training. Sometimes they don't even know about a safety on the gun itself. I think it should be MANDATORY before you are allowed to own ANY gun that you have to go to a gun safety class,and not a one day quick thing,but one where you have to actually fire the weapon on a range,view a film that shows what a bullet does to the human body. Learn to understand your responsibility in owning a weapon.

That my rant on the subject.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on September 04, 2012, 11:25:44 PM
Nope.  There are many reasons why people own guns.  It also acts as a deterrent.  It creates fear in the intruder, not the other way around.

Of course there are other reasons, I own guns for hunting.

A handgun can only be a "deterrent" if the intruder knows you own one, correct? So the only other reason to own a handgun for "security" is the "fear" of an intruder.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on September 04, 2012, 11:28:19 PM
With the right to bear arms in this country, an intruder doesn't know who does or who doesn't have a gun in the house.  If we were to lose that right, the intruder would have no fear.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: anunitu on September 04, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
First thing I was taught in the service when learning about guns was this "Never point a gun at a person unless you are prepared to kill that person" Showing deadly force means the other person will respond with deadly force. Period!!
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: hutch-- on September 05, 2012, 12:00:56 AM
Bill,

We do agree with handguns but differ on full sized assault rifles. I class machine pistols in the same class as handguns. RE: Intruders, nothing like a few bullet holes in the front gate to make the point.  :biggrin:

Now if I lived in the US it would be a 444 Marlin. They were like using an artillery piece.  :P
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on September 05, 2012, 12:07:48 AM
I don't have a problem with guns,they are only a tool really. What I really have a problem with is STUPID gun owners,with no safety training. Sometimes they don't even know about a safety on the gun itself. I think it should be MANDATORY before you are allowed to own ANY gun that you have to go to a gun safety class,and not a one day quick thing,but one where you have to actually fire the weapon on a range,view a film that shows what a bullet does to the human body. Learn to understand your responsibility in owning a weapon.

I agree with most of what you stated anunitu. My only disagreement with you is I do have a problem with guns, that being (as you stated) stupid people owning them and most often those stupid people own handguns. You will find more often then not that a hunter is (like you an ex-soldier) very responsible when it comes to gun ownership. The average handgun owner is nothing more then a danger to themselves and those around them.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on September 05, 2012, 12:21:39 AM
Steve,

Many years ago I owned a Ruger 44 Magnum (big heavy thing) that you held on to with both hands because of the tendency of it to twist ones hand clockwise do to its rifling. I used it several years for bear hunting but never seen a bear worth taking down with it. A gun like that puts a vey big hole in things!

I believe it was several years ago a father took his kid to the local gun club who was a proud owner of an uzi that he was shooting. He then handed it over to his young boy and carefully explained how to hold and fire it. I guess the father didn’t take into account the recoil of it and when the kid pulled the trigger the uzi swung up and peppered the childs head killing him instantly. Can you imagine living with that event the rest of your life?

Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: K_F on September 05, 2012, 03:51:49 AM
We always have the right to arm bears.. they have more to fear.

We all live in fear of intruders.. but I refuse to own a gun purely because statistically it's more dangerous to myself and my family.
We work around the intruder factor with deterrents, psychologically subtle and obvious. So far so good  ;)
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: anunitu on September 05, 2012, 03:58:11 AM
One thing with me,I would have no problem shooting to kill someone that put me in danger. BUT there would have to be no other option,if I thought the person wasn't all that much a danger I would shoot to wound only. But the line between the two is very thin.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: jj2007 on September 05, 2012, 04:28:11 AM
We always have the right to arm bears.. they have more to fear.

Indeed. But the bears may need some training to defend themselves.

What strikes me in this thread is that nobody raises any doubt that "death penalty" is ok for somebody who just enters a house to steal something ::)
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on September 05, 2012, 04:42:21 AM
The intentions of an intruder are never known.  While it may be to steal something, they could also have intent to kidnap or to kill.  It's something that potential intruders need to realize before they commit the criminal act.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: jj2007 on September 05, 2012, 04:58:13 AM
The intentions of an intruder are never known.

George Zimmerman's logic when he killed the unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on September 05, 2012, 05:53:32 AM
Are you implying that the logic is flawed?
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: MichaelW on September 05, 2012, 06:40:42 AM
IMO if an intruder presents a significant threat, then whether or not he is armed is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: dedndave on September 05, 2012, 09:50:58 AM
those accidents would be greatly reduced if people took better precautions
still, the numbers are statistically small
Bill has a nice list there, but it does not compare, for example, how many people are killed in car accidents
or how many people die from illness, etc
it also does not compare how many would-be deaths are prevented by gun ownership
a difficult stat to tabulate, for sure

as for security, a lot depends on where you live
i suspect there are some places that are safer if you do not have a gun
simply because you are not as likely to be shot AT - lol
other places - everyone else has a gun - you better not be the odd man out

intruders rarely pick houses at random
smart ones "case" the place in advance
if the guy living there is a 6'3" former paratrooper, they tend to look elsewhere   :biggrin:
i have only had a break-in once, some 30+ years ago
at the time, i was living alone - and the burglar seemingly knew i was at work
point being, i don't really need a gun for security

if i were to have one for that purpose, it would probably be a .357 mag revolver
it doesn't just put a leaky hole in things
it tends to come out bigger than it went in and knocks them down, as well

i don't think it makes sense to shoot someone with the intention of wounding them
if you are going to shoot them, make sure they don't come back later
aim for the center of mass
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: K_F on September 05, 2012, 03:30:57 PM
Ja, If I'm going to own a gun, I'm prepared to kill.
I won't wound them, just empty the magazine on them.

The way I've worked things out, is that if you put enough deterrents in place you'll put off the intruder somewhat and they'll look for a weaker subject.
Remember that these people do not want to be caught and are highly stressed when breaking in. the slightest noise sets them running (or you get a very bad reaction) - Just set a lot of booby-traps and they won't stay around long enough to find out what's happening. Another thing is that I never allow any stranger into the house so that the internal layout is unfamiliar.
There is of course the determined armed intruder, and if they know you have a gun, they're going to come in 'shooting' - The surprise advantage will always be on their side and this is the biggest factor - Time for you to get your weapon out. It should legally be locked away in a safe, with the key hidden away from the children to prevent any accidents. Do you have the time to go through all that. Probably not, so you keep your weapon in an unsafe place, and so the gun-accidents stats rise.
If they know you're not armed, there's more of a chance they'll use the weapon as a persuader so your chances of survival are better.

I think one must weigh up the stats in the line of - Guns owners who successfully defended/shot intruders-vs-gun owner accidents.
I definitely hear a lot more accidents compared to the other. Another thing is the legal implications if you don't kill them first shot  ;)

I'm all for, quite simply, turning criminals into mincemeat (that nice mini-gun comes to mind), but you have to be careful that you don't do this to yourself.
It's a fine balance.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: K_F on September 05, 2012, 03:54:15 PM
if i were to have one for that purpose, it would probably be a .357 mag revolver
it doesn't just put a leaky hole in things
it tends to come out bigger than it went in and knocks them down, as well
The Russians in WW2, found out that their 5mm automatic weapons were better suited for close combat than the bigger calibers.
They were smaller, lighter, had a bigger ammo clip and made many more smaller leaks, which was just as effective... and more painful - I like this.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: CodeDog on September 12, 2012, 06:16:43 AM
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. Albert Einstein
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: xanatose on September 13, 2012, 06:32:05 PM
To those who oppose guns in hands on the people. Are you willing to take out the guns from the hands of government? Because what you are only accomplishing by taking the guns from the law abiding people is that government and criminals are the only ones able to defend themselves. Fact is that even the lunatics choose areas where people are less likely to have a gun.

Never forget that governments are the #1 cause of murder of civilians over the world (Around 300 million on the 20th century). And that includes ONLY civilians, not soldiers.
Of course they do not call it murder. But execution, accidents and collateral damage. Still death is death irrelevant of the name.


As of fear. Do you use your car belt? If so, why? Are you afraid of crashing? Because thats the only point where the belt is useful. Same with guns, is not about fear, but of safety.  Towns where guns are outlawed have far more crimes than towns where guns are required.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: jj2007 on September 13, 2012, 07:07:01 PM
Towns where guns are outlawed have far more crimes than towns where guns are required.

City        Murder per 100,000
London    1.9   (no guns)
Rome      1.6   (no guns)
Berlin      2.0   (no guns)
Detroit    43.0
US avg    4.8

Other source: (http://www.topix.com/forum/city/elizabethton-tn/T9BPM835VUT85PLKA#comments)
Singapore 0.4
Tokyo 0.5
Hong Kong 0.6
Berlin 1.0
Sydney 1.0
London 1.4
Toronto 1.7
Amsterdam 1.8
Paris 4.4
New York 6.0
Los Angeles 7.5
Mexico City 8.0
Moscow 9.6
Sao Paulo 15.6
Chicago 19.4

Now, as an exercise, you could mark those cities in red where weapons are either "required" (your wording) or allowed.

 8)
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: CodeDog on September 13, 2012, 07:39:35 PM
Guns are bad, no question asked. If you need to produce more bad to fight bad then innovation is needed.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: MichaelW on September 14, 2012, 07:16:54 AM
Towns where guns are outlawed have far more crimes than towns where guns are required.

To know we would need to see the total crimes statistics, not just the murder statistics.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: K_F on September 14, 2012, 06:11:02 PM
As you might become a crime stat, you have consider that afterwards..

1) would you prefer to be alive - Guns are not allowed.
2) would you prefer to be dead - Guns are allowed.

Guns are not going to stop crime that's a no brainer... but more people are going to be killed where there are more guns - No Brainer2
 ;)
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on September 14, 2012, 10:31:43 PM
As you might become a crime stat, you have consider that afterwards..

1) would you prefer to be alive - Guns are not allowed.
2) would you prefer to be dead - Guns are allowed.

Guns are not going to stop crime that's a no brainer... but more people are going to be killed where there are more guns - No Brainer2
 ;)
If guns don't stop crime, why do law enforcement officers carry them?
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: hutch-- on September 15, 2012, 10:08:14 AM
Violent crimes are committed using "TADA !!!!" VIOLENCE, guns, knives, heavy blunt objects etc etc ....

Its generally the case that if a person is going to commit a violent crime that they think the can exercise some advantage by doing so, steal things, force someone to do something or just plain kill them.

The argument that you should NOT be able to defend yourself is flawed to this extent that arguments that say you are safer being unarmed don't take into account that many people get killed or seriously maimed as a consequence of violent crime. Would you be happy with the phenomenon here in Sydney where persons of west African appearance commit violent crimes in gangs carrying and using machetties ?

At least if the intended victim can shoot back they have some chance of avoiding the consequnces of violent crime. If the attacker ends up dead, who gives a PHUK anyway ?

Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: dedndave on October 29, 2012, 05:04:16 AM
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/12-year-old-oklahoma-girl-shoots-intruder-in-home (http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/12-year-old-oklahoma-girl-shoots-intruder-in-home)
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: jj2007 on October 29, 2012, 05:35:19 AM
"Jones then pointed to the girl's house and said that he had been homeless for the last 10 days and was hungry"

Burglary certainly justifies death penalty executed by a 12-year-old girl. She would also certainly have found a priest who reassured her that God himself would have shot the guy, too.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on October 29, 2012, 05:41:49 AM
"Jones then pointed to the girl's house and said that he had been homeless for the last 10 days and was hungry"

Burglary certainly justifies death penalty executed by a 12-year-old girl. She would also certainly have found a priest who reassured her that God himself would have shot the guy, too.
What death penalty?

"Jones was flown to the Medical Center of Plano, Texas, where he is in stable condition with a gunshot wound to the left shoulder/back area.
 
Bates said the gunshot was a "flesh wound" and not life threatening. Jones will be arrested by Plano Police after he is released from the hospital."
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: dedndave on October 29, 2012, 07:41:16 AM
...not only that, but who stores food in the bedroom closet of their 12-year old daughter ?
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: MichaelW on October 29, 2012, 09:16:22 AM
There are a lot of girls here who would have shot him, doing exactly what their parents instructed them to do.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on October 29, 2012, 07:10:39 PM
. . .doing exactly what their parents instructed them to do.

Do you not see how pathetic that sounds? How sick has America become that we must teach our children how to shoot a gun so that they may feel safe. Some 350 million guns owned in this country. America, land of the free, home of the fearful. Yes indeed, how pitiful we have become!
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on October 29, 2012, 10:18:59 PM
. . .doing exactly what their parents instructed them to do.

Do you not see how pathetic that sounds? How sick has America become that we must teach our children how to shoot a gun so that they may feel safe. Some 350 million guns owned in this country. America, land of the free, home of the fearful. Yes indeed, how pitiful we have become!
Now that she shot the guy, maybe he'll think twice about breaking into someone's house, thereby decreasing the number of potential intruders and giving women one less reason to be fearful.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on October 29, 2012, 11:19:09 PM
Better yet...

Bill, if this was your daughter, how would you tell her to handle the situation?
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on October 29, 2012, 11:25:24 PM
There is a reason we have more guns than people in this country. In America security trumps everything, even our liberty. We are paranoid to the extreme and live our lives in fear for our own safety. You don’t have to watch Fox News or CNN for more than 10 minutes to hear about how our neighbor is going to rape our children or a burglar is going to break in and kill you. What does this say about us as Americans? Our natural response to these types of tragedies is not to try to understand why they are happening but to prepare for the worst and be ready to open fire. It is astounding that in this once great country we have become so afraid of anything that moves that we must lock our doors and hide like the mice we have become. Yes indeed, we have become a gun maddened society afraid of our own shadow.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on October 29, 2012, 11:43:02 PM
How would you have your daughter handle the situation?
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: MichaelW on October 30, 2012, 03:33:13 AM
. . .doing exactly what their parents instructed them to do.

Do you not see how pathetic that sounds? How sick has America become that we must teach our children how to shoot a gun so that they may feel safe. Some 350 million guns owned in this country. America, land of the free, home of the fearful. Yes indeed, how pitiful we have become!

It’s not about feeling safe - it’s about protecting children from sexual predators. Do you not see how pathetic, and callous, your response is?

Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: jj2007 on October 30, 2012, 04:53:47 AM
it’s about protecting children from sexual predators.

Then daddy should really take care to explain in every detail how to handle this gun.

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80% of all child abusers are the father, foster father, stepfather or another relative or close family friend of the victim. (http://www.safekidsbc.ca/statistics.htm)
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on October 30, 2012, 04:59:49 AM
it’s about protecting children from sexual predators.

Then daddy should really take care to explain in every detail how to handle this gun.

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80% of all child abusers are the father, foster father, stepfather or another relative or close family friend of the victim. (http://www.safekidsbc.ca/statistics.htm)
If the goal was to get the guy to run out of the house, she succeeded.  I'd say she handled it perfectly.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on October 30, 2012, 07:54:47 PM
A 12 year old firing a handgun wildly thru a door and just by circumstance she hits the intruder is madness. It was just as likely that the bullet missed and killed one of the girl’s neighbors. I would ask, what the fuck is a 12 year old doing at home alone without an adult around? Is this what America his come to? Are you saying that we should give every child in America a handgun and teach them how to fire it? Yes the little girl drove the bad man away but she was just as likely to have shot herself or someone else. For every link posted here on the masm forum about a child shooting an intruder I can post ten links where a child has either shot themselves or some other innocent person. This stupidity that handgun ownership is a wonderful thing is absurd. There is nothing a gun lover can say that will convince me that this handgun owning madness we have in America is justified. Handgun ownership here in the states is at an all time high and in too many cases they are owned by morons that have no clue as to the proper use of a gun. It is a craziness induced by paranoia and fear!!

http://masm32.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=ace1dfb88a416d2f6093f760615c9ccd&topic=657.msg5365#msg5365
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: MichaelW on October 30, 2012, 10:18:12 PM
A 12 year old firing a handgun wildly thru a door and just by circumstance she hits the intruder is madness.

You don’t know that she was firing wildly.

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It was just as likely that the bullet missed and killed one of the girl’s neighbors.

No, it wasn’t. Even assuming that it was a wild shot, the further away a person is the less likely they will be hit, and the lower the velocity of the bullet, even if it does not have to pass through some obstacle, so the less likely a fatal wound is.

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I would ask, what the fuck is a 12 year old doing at home alone without an adult around?

Few parents are in a position to always be at home when their child is.

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Are you saying that we should give every child in America a handgun and teach them how to fire it?

I made no statement even related to this, but since you ask, I think such decisions should be left to the parents.

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Yes the little girl drove the bad man away but she was just as likely to have shot herself or someone else.

Again, you don’t know this.

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For every link posted here on the masm forum about a child shooting an intruder I can post ten links where a child has either shot themselves or some other innocent person.

I’m sure you can, but what does that have to do with this girl. She did not shoot herself or some other innocent person, and the police clearly stated that she acted properly.

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This stupidity that handgun ownership is a wonderful thing is absurd. There is nothing a gun lover can say that will convince me that this handgun owning madness we have in America is justified.

It is justified for some people, and not for others.

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Handgun ownership here in the states is at an all time high and in too many cases they are owned by morons that have no clue as to the proper use of a gun. It is a craziness induced by paranoia and fear!!

So letting morons do what morons do with a handgun is craziness. I would extend that to letting morons do what morons do with anything that significantly affects other people. Have you considered that the reason they can own handguns is that they can vote?
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: jj2007 on October 30, 2012, 11:16:31 PM
Quote
80% of all child abusers are the father, foster father, stepfather or another relative or close family friend of the victim. (http://www.safekidsbc.ca/statistics.htm)

If the goal was to get the guy to run out of the house, she succeeded.  I'd say she handled it perfectly.

So how should the girl "handle" the situation if Uncle Ryan came a bit too close? Like ten-year old little Joseph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jeff_Hall#Death)?
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: dedndave on October 31, 2012, 02:26:27 AM
i saw a news video on this case
it showed the bullet hole - it was fairly obvious what happened
she was hiding in her bedroom closet, per her mother's instructions
when the closet doorknob turned, she fired a single, well-placed shot, a few inches above the door knob
the guy is lucky to be alive
she seemed like an intelligent, mature 12-year old on the interview - you'd think more like 16 or 17
had she faced the guy, she may not have been able to fire a shot
shooting a door is different than shooting a person, face-to-face
she did the right thing - the guy had no business being there
the "i was hungry" story just doesn't cut it

on a different note - hope you are fairing the storm well, today, Bill   :t
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on October 31, 2012, 03:14:33 AM
on a different note - hope you are fairing the storm well, today, Bill   :t

Hi Dave,

It hasn’t been too bad where I live, that is if you don’t mind it raining day after day. The winds haven’t been too bad I think because once Sandy’s winds cross the Appalachian Mountains they tend to diminish. We are to continue getting rained on until Friday. The East Coast is another story, they really got hammered and millions of folks have no electric power. But President Obama was on the ball about this disaster unlike GW was during Katrina and even chubby Governor Christie of New Jersey has said Obama has done an exceptional job in getting FEMA on the job. It is very strange that we here in the northeast have experienced such a storm as this and I think it will go down in the record books as the first of this magnitude.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on October 31, 2012, 03:26:46 AM
You don’t know that she was firing wildly.

Perhaps blindly would have been a better word. The fact is America has the highest rate of gun related injuries in the entire world among developed nations. According to the 2002 academic study “Gun Violence: The Real Cost” there were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during the year 2000, that’s according to the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. I’m certain the numbers today are greater then that year.

You can add to that fact that America has the highest rate of gun related deaths among its peers in the industrialized world according to an academic review by the National Academy of Science. The US rate of gun related deaths is eight times higher than it is in countries that are economically and politically similar. About 9,000 people were murdered with guns here last year, according to the FBI. Our overall firearm related death rate is the world’s 12th highest which is just behind Mexico’s the home of the infamously brutal drug wars. And we Americans are right up there with countries like South Africa, Columbia and El Salvador, according to the Centers for Disease Control.

We have become a growing mass of paranoid schizophrenics who fear our own neighbors and the strangers we interact with on a daily bases. What a pathetic frightened people we Americans have become. So you gun lovers go ahead and continue hugging that teddy bear tightly if it makes you feel safe, but please be careful not to shoot yourself.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Ryan on October 31, 2012, 03:34:27 AM
Quote
80% of all child abusers are the father, foster father, stepfather or another relative or close family friend of the victim. (http://www.safekidsbc.ca/statistics.htm)

If the goal was to get the guy to run out of the house, she succeeded.  I'd say she handled it perfectly.

So how should the girl "handle" the situation if Uncle Ryan came a bit too close? Like ten-year old little Joseph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jeff_Hall#Death)?
Are you trying to put me in the place of the intruder?  Under the assumption that the girl is my niece, I would be calling out her name and identifying myself.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: jj2007 on November 02, 2012, 05:58:48 PM
President Obama was on the ball about this disaster unlike GW was during Katrina and even chubby Governor Christie of New Jersey has said Obama has done an exceptional job in getting FEMA on the job. It is very strange that we here in the northeast have experienced such a storm as this and I think it will go down in the record books as the first of this magnitude.

It's Global Warming, Stupid (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-01/its-global-warming-stupid#r=read)
(the source is not Mitt Romney but rather some communist propaganda pamphlete ;))
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: mywan on November 02, 2012, 11:01:42 PM
This stupidity that handgun ownership is a wonderful thing is absurd.
It's not a wonderful thing. It's a result of the fact that the world is not so wonderful, with or without guns. Removing guns does NOT change one iota of the reasons why people feel the need to own them in the first place. Implying that gun ownership is simply due to an ostensibly 'wonderful' love of guns is fallacious. Outlawing guns will not make the idiocy, on which you predicate your reasons for outlawing them, go away.

I do not 'love' guns, or own one, nor do I intend to. Do you still want characterize my position as a result of a 'love' of guns?
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: Bill Cravener on November 03, 2012, 02:21:59 AM
I do not 'love' guns, or own one, nor do I intend to.

I must ask you mywan, are you an American?

We American’s weren’t always so irrational about gun ownership, though firearms were a more utilitarian household item 50-60 years ago when more families hunted game for sport and the dinner table. I have in fact been a game hunter for near 50 years. In 1968 after nearly a decade of high profile political assassinations Congress passed the most stringent firearms regulations since the 30’s despite the vigorous protests of the gun lobby. In the intervening years though the gun lobby has only grown more powerful and more radical and more unhinged pushing past the limits of human sanity. Its activists have forcefully battled to allow firearms on college campuses, in bars and most all public places here in the states, hell even in churches. Its members have persuaded state legislatures to pass notorious “Stand Your Ground” laws such as the Florida statute implicated in the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

What a sad frightened people we American’s have become. It seems these days that American citizenship is defined not by the community we are and of which together we build but instead based on our right to own and carry a handgun in some delusion of self protection because we live in daily fear for our own safety. To call handgun ownership the American way or some notion of citizenship is an understatement when it is in fact an outrage. If we do not come to grips with the fact that handguns for self defense is a failure of a civil society to be mourned rather then an act of citizenship to be vaunted then we as American’s have lost all civility as well as our minds.

Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: dedndave on November 03, 2012, 05:28:38 AM
you cannot forget that the US won it's sovereignty from the British by way of private citizens with weapons
that's the reason it is entrenched into the constitution
the ideal holds a special meaning to Americans, and that's the main reason we still have guns in the US
they may call for stricter legislation and tighter controls,
but i doubt they will ever succeed in taking them away altogether
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: mywan on November 03, 2012, 06:14:03 AM
I must ask you mywan, are you an American?
Yes, I am American. I well remember when James Brady was shot by John Hinckley which eventually led to the Brady Bill signed by Clinton 12 years later. I did my share of deer hunting in the 70s. As a teen running loose at night, when I broke down and needed to make a phone call, to knock on a strangers door in the middle of the night to use their phone. Entering a house where the owner had a 30-06 slung over the back of the couch, trained on me as I made my call, was never a problem for me. These people were generally far more civil and helpful than what you can expect now.

You say the Gun Control Act of 1968 was "despite the vigorous protests of the gun lobby", yet gun manufacturers generally supported the bill. The NRA itself only had objections to certain portions of the bill, for reasons I'll get back to. You are assigning resistance to the "gun lobby". The fact is that the issues of individuals never had a voice, and any that did attempt to be heard only got heard as if a voice of the "gun lobby". This disposition of yours to assign historical objections to the "gun lobby" is precisely why the "gun lobby" acquired such lobbying power, it was the only way people could get heard. However imperfect that hearing people tended to think it was better the alternative, of no voice in the matter whatsoever. And here you are implicitly denying it was their voice, which your falsely denying the existence of prior to them turning to the "gun lobby" to have some semblance of a voice. The most restrictive laws developing at this earlier time was more at local levels. Hence when the Bernhard Goetz subway incidence occurred it created a backlash of public sentiment, sentiment that had previously been ignored and falsely assigned to the sentiments of the NRA. The incident did not create the sentiment, it merely give it a vehicle to be heard. To equate the public's sentiment about gun control with gun bans was NEVER reasonable in the public's eyes, an that is what was occurring at local levels throughout the nation.

Now, about those earlier NRA objection, and the historical consequences of failing to heed these objections. The NRA early on had no real objections to gun control in a certain sense, but wanted to protect the legal status of many professional and traditional activities. Gun control and the banning of guns need not be the same thing, but just as the gun lobby can today push their position beyond reason, during this time the gun control lobby was pushing their position beyond reason, in the estimation of the actual public. Yet, by stripping the public sentiment and attaching such objections to the "gun lobby", the public's only outlet became the "gun lobby", leading to a massive growth in their power. Unfortunately it was one of those lesser of two evils issues, in which the public's hands were forced.

The height of gun control was reached when Clinton signed the Brady Bill in 1993. This bill effectively made it illegal for a lot of people that, in some cases, made a living in shooting competitions to compete in their profession. Being a federal level law not even a federal license helped in the least. These kinds of restrictions, regardless of the length people go to in order to remain legal, vastly increased the public backlash. Then when the Supreme Court overturned this law at a federal (not state) level in Printz v. United States, on 10th amendment grounds, it's back to the states. Only this time around, due to the previous treatment the public got, and as you now falsely assign to the "gun lobby" itself, people are not in the mood to hear these misapplications of sentiment and are more willing to overlook the extremes of the gun lobby because it appears as a lesser of two evils when compared to the historical thrashing they got from gun control. A thrashing predicated on precisely the same words, and misappropriation of sentiment, that you are so adept at using here.
Title: Re: Why you live longer owning a gun.
Post by: nidud on November 09, 2012, 08:08:32 AM
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