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General => The Colosseum => Topic started by: caballero on February 10, 2022, 08:34:27 PM

Title: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 10, 2022, 08:34:27 PM
Last week, the regional government of Kassel approved the installation of 18 wind turbines in the Reinhardswald, a forest in central Germany whose beauty makes it popularly considered the setting for the Grimm brothers' tales. The Greens approve. [ironic] :greenclp:[/ironic]

https://twitter.com/luis_i_gomez/status/1140866493766361088

https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: HSE on February 11, 2022, 03:01:22 AM
The bigger problem with forest is not wind turbine itself, but the wires. You have to destroy the forest to mantain a clean area for wires.

The irony is that wind turbines are operative for 20 years, but old forest will take 80 years to cover the area in previous way. Not so problematic in forest under clearcut management in plain landscapes.

From landscape view is also a disaster. You can mount turbines without much problem, but you can't dismount easily because structural corrosion make that very dangerous. Then turbines after finish operative life remains useless, perhaps expecting they broke and fall.

Perhaps there is better way to make things, but is not so evident now.

Sure JJ can explain a little  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 11, 2022, 04:08:40 AM
> Sure JJ can explain a little
 :greensml: No doubt

There is a simple way to fix the problem: look the other way, "que yo ya me lo he llevao"
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 11, 2022, 06:36:34 AM
The bigger problem with forest is not wind turbine itself, but the wires. You have to destroy the forest to mantain a clean area for wires.
...
Sure JJ can explain a little  :biggrin:

Any reference to that? I've never heard about it, of course you may be right.

A little quiz: How many trees are there per inhabitant in Germany?
A  5
B  25
C  100
D 500
E 1000

(https://www.fachagentur-windenergie.de/fileadmin/_processed_/2/8/csm__c__FA_Wind_2015__Janto_Trappe__14__fa6ae546bc.jpg)
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 11, 2022, 06:54:48 AM
The meaning of this little quiz is that since there are many trees per inhabitant in Germany, it is not a drama cutting down a few hundred or thousands of them in the name of... ecology?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 11, 2022, 07:33:48 AM
The meaning of this little quiz is that since there are many trees per inhabitant in Germany, it is not a drama cutting down a few hundred or thousands of them in the name of... ecology?

You have a tendency to distort facts, caballero.

Despite how small windmills look far away, the truth is that they are very tall and have long blades, which are a trap barrier for birds and insects, including those birds in danger of extinction, that if you killed one of them, you would go to prison for it , but if you kill them through a windmill, that's a good thing.
Re birds, that's utter nonsense. Ordinary cats kill more than 10,000 times as many birds as windmills.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: HSE on February 11, 2022, 07:46:00 AM
Any reference to that? I've never heard about it, of course you may be right.

If I found again I will post. Happen that some areas are protected just because they can't be exploted in traditional ways. Now with the "Climate Change drama" nobody pay attention to what is destroyed. Who can opose to "green energy". I pressume is not Germany case but still is of concern everywhere.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 11, 2022, 07:47:29 AM
Cats killing birds is a natural process, while windmills killing birds is not. Are we talking here about ecology?

I would like to see how a cat is able to kill a bird like this, a windmill can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPDVLdj6sLY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed8rG86VAL8
(The falcon has caught a cat)


Quote from: https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/
nature destruction
The Reinhardswald is home to a large variety of species. Protected birds, bats and millions of insects are shredded by the spinning windmill blades. Hectares of forest are cleared and compacted, the groundwater is endangered - an intact ecosystem is permanently destroyed.
Quote from: https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/
14
kilometers of road construction
...are at least necessary in order to only be able to build the first 18 systems. These roads are up to 17.50 m wide, must be compacted to withstand heavy loads and must be kept free of vegetation over the entire period of operation.
Quote from: https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/
241
meters height
... measures a single large wind turbine and is therefore 84 meters higher than Cologne Cathedral and 41 meters higher than the Main Tower. Even the gondola is at a height of 166 meters.
Quote from: https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/
150
meters in diameter
...has the rotor of a wind turbine. It covers an area of ??17,660 m² - gigantic and has never been used before. (Type Vestas V150 5.6 MW).
Quote from: https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/
13000
truck rides
...are just for the first 20 foundations, cranes and plant parts
necessary (= there and back). Clearing, access roads, alternative and storage areas require many thousands more trips in the forest.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 11, 2022, 09:00:38 AM
So big glass fences are not safe too.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: LiaoMi on February 11, 2022, 10:17:35 AM
Last week, the regional government of Kassel approved the installation of 18 wind turbines in the Reinhardswald, a forest in central Germany whose beauty makes it popularly considered the setting for the Grimm brothers' tales. The Greens approve. [ironic] :greenclp:[/ironic]

https://twitter.com/luis_i_gomez/status/1140866493766361088

https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/

Hi caballero,

my electricity bills are huge  :undecided:

Germany shuts down two more nuclear power plants - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/31/germany-shuts-down-half-of-its-remaining-nuclear-plants

The growth rate in alternative energy is slow, many Germans don't do laundry, don't use the dishwasher, don't even take a shower to save on electricity. All hope is in thermonuclear energy:

U.K. JET Fusion Reactor Produces More Five-Second Reactions After 25 Years -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMuOaTqdp4c
http://news.newenergytimes.net/2022/02/09/u-k-jet-fusion-reactor-after-25-years-produces-more-five-second-reactions/

People have practically killed the entire planet, but no one wants to see it. Just look at the difference between pictures from Google - https://www.ecowatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/1702257359-origin.jpg
Microplastics in the oceans, ecosystems are suffocated by exhaust gases. Take the pandemic for example ... The month of the global lockdown cleared the air so quickly. Animals returned to their habitats. And even noticing such a difference, people stepped over and went their own way. I have biochemist friends who are working on new food sources, they have a probabilistic forecast that specifies that without genetic modification, people will have global hunger.

Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 11, 2022, 06:06:09 PM
RE : Clearling large areas of forest for power poles and wires, I forget the location here in OZ  but a local council allowed a power company to absolutely massacre an old growth forest to route poles and wire through, in this case about 200 metres wide. Later some folks sued the power company that then went broke and the old growth forest was ruined for at least some hundreds of years.

I have nothing against renewable energy when its done right but this was a phukup that should never have been done. Find other locations that are high enough and have enough wind. Try northern Tasmania, its the only place I have ever seen where it rains sideways, the winds are so strong. Must be many megawatts being wasted there.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 11, 2022, 07:40:50 PM
absolutely massacre an old growth forest to route poles and wire through, in this case about 200 metres wide

For wind or conventional energy?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 11, 2022, 08:09:37 PM
When I was a kid, they wanted to build a nuclear power plant at a certain point in Spain. People from the area came out en masse to protest against it. They carried a candle and their motto was that they preferred it before nuclear energy. Was it really so? Absolutely not, what they really meant was that they wanted to continue consuming electricity at cheap prices, but to move the nuclear power station to another site. But the people in that other place would also behave the same way. Where do we get it then?

If we citizens, do not behave like adults, politicians will treat us like stupid.

After the recent problem at a nuclear power plant in Japan, the effect was to create a general mood against nuclear power. Consequently, we shut down all nuclear power plants and create "green energy", without taking into account the possible adverse effects of this so-called "green energy". If you acted in a reasonable way, and allowed neutral experts to work, it is possible that the most reasonable thing would be to have a mix between nuclear and wind / solar energy, etc.

When we notably increase the population, when it was decreasing, it will be necessary to understand that if we all consume energy, it is most likely that we will need more of it. Where do we get it? More power plants will have to be built which will probably destroy the environment. If we are willing to face this notable increase in population, not showering daily may not be an excessive tribute to pay.

If we make extensive use of the electric car, where will we get the necessary excess electricity? What will happen to the batteries once they reach the end of their cycle?

Transgenic food? No thanks, although I'm afraid that won't be up to me.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 11, 2022, 08:33:12 PM
If world wants electric vehicles, every country needs more cheap electric power.
It's time to build atomic power again to some countries, so they don't depend any bully countries from energy and have independent power sources.
Germany is a small example of green nuts, who tried to make world greenier, but not thinking further of solutions

Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 11, 2022, 09:50:55 PM
Atomic energy is far too expensive to be a solution. It survives in UK and France due to massive subsidies paid with taxpayers's money. Plus, there is no final storage, nowhere, and there is the risk of proliferation.

Wind energy is by far the cheapest now, followed by photovoltaics. And it gets cheaper every year - there is no way back.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 11, 2022, 10:29:03 PM
Electric cars are good for collecting temporary energy, but before that, better powerlines had to been build.
How many charging places are now near people ?, not so many.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 12, 2022, 07:23:57 AM
The same old problem raises its head with renewables, BASELOAD power. Wind is erratic, solar does not work at night, storage is not yet big enough or reliable enough and tides have not been exploited in a useful way. That leaves dirty old coal, not so dirty gas and really clean nuclear (when its not done on the cheap with old technology).

A world running on renewable energy sits shivering in the dark and the cold.

NOOKLA anyone ?  :tongue:

Tides are a very powerful energy source except they are generally not in an area close enough to be useful. In the Kimberley region of northern OZ is a horizontal waterfall, properly a narrow gap between the open ocean and a large bay and with 10 metre tidal changes, there is reall big grunt in terms of power flowing through that gap. Its just too far away.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 14, 2022, 10:02:33 PM
> Wind energy is by far the cheapest now, followed by photovoltaics

I, who am illiterate in all this, wonder how it is that, then the energy bill does not stop rising. And how is it that several countries are planning the construction of new nuclear power plants, such as France or China (150 new).
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 15, 2022, 12:43:28 AM
> Wind energy is by far the cheapest now, followed by photovoltaics

I, who am illiterate in all this, wonder how it is that, then the energy bill does not stop rising.

Good question! Here are the answers.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/3-Learning-curves-for-electricity-prices.png)

Quote
And how is it that several countries are planning the construction of new nuclear power plants, such as France or China (150 new).

France subsidises nuclear energy, simply because they want to keep their nuclear bombs.
China subsidises nuclear energy indirectly by not applying the necessary safety standards. Wait and see.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 15, 2022, 01:24:47 AM
So, the price of gas has nothing to do with it? That is, since there is not always wind and sun, we need to burn natural gas to produce electricity, and our gas suppliers have raised the price.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFHeYtl8nNQ

Interview with Alfredo García, Operador Nuclear, he is a popularizer of nuclear science and technology, Communication award from the Spanish Nuclear Society and an active defender of the role of nuclear energy as a tool to mitigate global warming. He is a Telecommunications technical engineer, has a degree in Audiovisual Communication and has the operator and supervisor licenses granted by the Nuclear Safety Council and necessary to operate at the Ascó nuclear power plant (Tarragona).



https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactor_nuclear_de_IV_generaci%C3%B3n

Fourth generation nuclear reactors
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 15, 2022, 02:03:47 AM
Alfredo García, Operador Nuclear, he is a popularizer of nuclear science and technology, Communication award from the Spanish Nuclear Society

Why don't you write "some guy paid by Big Pharma Nuclear"?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 15, 2022, 03:35:25 AM
Is it true that natural gas must be burned to supply the unproductive times of wind/solar generators or is it not? Why does the bill increase?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: nidud on February 15, 2022, 04:11:05 AM
deleted
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Greenhorn on February 15, 2022, 04:31:04 AM
Caballero,

Why does the bill increase?

At least for Germany there are several reasons:
Quote
The prices for natural gas are rising and rising and if you read our newspapers and watch the usual TV formats for the reasons, the answer is quickly found: Putin is to blame! What else? There it needs already the Satiriker and European delegate Martin sunborn, in order to bring a little light into the thing. Not Putin or Gazprom, but a mixture of anti-Russian actionism, the liberalization of the gas market and the profit motive of German gas traders are to be blamed for the misery. Above all, the transatlantic whims of the Poles have led to a situation that can only be called grotesque, in which Germany supplies Poland with gas while the storage facilities here are emptying and prices are exploding. Why do we not read or hear anything about this in the major media? Are they so busy with their anti-Russia propaganda that they simply ignore such an important issue?

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
https://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=80121

Ursula von der -uhm- Leyen recently made a deal with the USA - of course behind closed doors - about importing more fracking gas from USA.

Regarding the "Fairy Forest" and the wind generators, it seems that it is about grabbing subsidies from EU or DE. The website you've linked says:
Quote
All designated areas are low wind areas. Paradoxically, these areas are particularly highly subsidized. And that is the only reason why such gigantic wind turbines are to be built there. Nevertheless, the energy yield of the wind turbines remains doubtful - the price is all the higher.

So, yes, it's hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Siekmanski on February 15, 2022, 04:47:17 AM
Just wait for a CO2 filtered mask mandate for wearing masks with a CO2 sensor and GPS built in (to collect CO2 tax and limit your freedom of movement ) to safe the climate.
It will reduce a lot of CO2 emissions.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 15, 2022, 05:20:18 AM
Russian Natural Gas Monthly Price (https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=russian-natural-gas&months=120)
Keeping war exercises isn't cheap.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Siekmanski on February 15, 2022, 05:25:30 AM
Russian Natural Gas Monthly Price (https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=russian-natural-gas&months=120)
Keeping war exercises isn't cheap.

But a useful propaganda tool.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 15, 2022, 05:35:24 AM
Russian Natural Gas Monthly Price (https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=russian-natural-gas&months=120)
Keeping war exercises isn't cheap.

But a useful propaganda tool.
So this should go to humour topic :biggrin:
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Siekmanski on February 15, 2022, 06:07:27 AM
Only if it's funny, this isn't  funny at all. It's a game of fools......
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 15, 2022, 08:38:50 AM
So you are position to deside, what is funny and what is not.
No freedom of humour, i have to ask that from ...
Good riddance of ...
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Siekmanski on February 15, 2022, 08:52:35 AM
Russian Natural Gas Monthly Price (https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=russian-natural-gas&months=120)
Keeping war exercises isn't cheap.

But a useful propaganda tool.
So this should go to humour topic :biggrin:

Only if it's funny, this isn't  funny at all. It's a game of fools......

So you are position to deside, what is funny and what is not.
No freedom of humour, i have to ask that from ...
Good riddance of ...

I have nothing to decide, but you do apparently...
IMHO propaganda isn't funny but if you think it is, be my guest.
Freedom of expression is a right.....
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 15, 2022, 09:04:06 AM
Only horse and fools --
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 15, 2022, 02:51:10 PM
RE :Renewable energy.

Ah, but the wind stopped blowing and its a cloudy day, why won't the lights turn on ?

Ah, how do we keep warm now, burn the furniture ?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 15, 2022, 08:29:11 PM
Don't worry, Hutch, you are not the only one asking these questions. There are thousands of qualified economists and engineers working on it :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 15, 2022, 09:03:47 PM
> Don't worry
Let me be worried, if you don't mind

> There are thousands of qualified economists and engineers working on it
All of them being payed by the same person, so their conclusion will be where the money goes.

> working on it
So, we substitute all the working power plants by other that don't supply the same energy and the previous work to know if this is factible is being implemented now... thousands of qualifed economists and engineers...
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 15, 2022, 09:59:24 PM
I am not sure of the virtues of how energy is being managed in the EU and the UK. With energy prices going through the roof, the choices for an ever increasing number of people is, do I eat, do I keep warm, can I afford to go somewhere to work ?

The loss of nuclear power via ideology, the hassles blocking the Russian gas supply, the inadequacy of unreliable renewable energy is leaving an every increasing number of people in the EU and UK in dire straights. It hits the poor first and the worst and eventually goes up the economic scale.

No-one gives a phuk about who is doing it tough, grubby power games and clapped out ideology are killing people by means of starvation and the cold. Tell a dead body about the virtues of clean air, happy green forests and you will not get a response.

The only viable solution is a graduated shift from fossile fuels to renewables over time and the rapid phasing out of the forrmer will kill the latter.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: nidud on February 16, 2022, 01:08:21 AM
deleted
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 16, 2022, 02:11:40 AM
Nidud is right.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 17, 2022, 12:30:39 AM
> The loss of nuclear power via ideology

It's all about money, ideology is used to keep people's mouth shut. There is a plague of unproductive locusts consuming public resources.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 17, 2022, 01:02:26 AM
> The loss of nuclear power via ideology

It's all about money

I agree. Nuclear power is now the most expensive energy source, but it gets subsidised. Why? Because you can't make much money with thousands of photovoltaic or wind energy installations - there is competition. But one big fat nuclear plant that costs 1 Billion in the planning phase but 10 Billion when it approaches the end: there you can milk the taxpayer like nowhere else :badgrin: :badgrin:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/3-Learning-curves-for-electricity-prices.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/3-Learning-curves-for-electricity-prices.png)

Please post links, not massive images that flood the topic.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 17, 2022, 08:51:37 AM
The real problem with nuclear energy is how it is crippled and restricted at an ideological level with scaremongering bullsh*t about how it will damage the planet etc etc etc .....

Yes its expensive to set up and yes the greenies, old hippies and anti-nuke brigade have done everything to force the price up and lengthen delays but would the same bunch accept blackouts, freezing cold winters, no electric light, forget cooking and the collapsing infrastructure that follows not enough power ? Yo ho ho, doubt it, that result is only for the plebs who don't matter. Who gives a phuk if they go hungry when they need to stay warm ?

When you flick a switch to turn on the lights in winter, dirty old coal and nuclear are your friend. Its called base load power.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 17, 2022, 01:54:04 PM
I agree. Nuclear power is now the most expensive energy source, but it gets subsidised. Why? Because you can't make much money with thousands of photovoltaic or wind energy installations - there is competition. But one big fat nuclear plant that costs 1 Billion in the planning phase but 10 Billion when it approaches the end: there you can milk the taxpayer like nowhere else :badgrin: :badgrin:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/3-Learning-curves-for-electricity-prices.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/3-Learning-curves-for-electricity-prices.png)

Please post links, not massive images that flood the topic.

I'm so sorry that you didn't like the image, Hutch :tongue:
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 17, 2022, 06:50:09 PM
Blasting of thermal power plant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYwV5xHUsl8


Coal plant blast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozpy-JA_ORs



But it is now when thousands of experts are seeing if it is feasible to change everything to renewable energy.


Nuclear power plants have a life cycle where their investment is amortized, once this milestone is reached the resulting energy is cheap.

Quote from: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/sociedad/20210603/sector-nuclear-critica-recorte-gobierno-11791923
The nuclear sector has assured that the plants "are not amortized", with annual investments of close to 300 million euros, and has underlined that the cut that the Government intends to make to their remuneration, together with the current rates, taxes and duties , "increase the financial suffocation of the nuclear park and lead it to cease activity".
Quote from: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/sociedad/20210603/sector-nuclear-critica-recorte-gobierno-11791923
In a statement, the Nuclear Forum, the employers' association of this industry, which expresses its perplexity at the statements that the plants are amortized and that they enjoy 'profits from heaven', points out that these plants are currently losing money as a result of "a disproportionate, discriminatory and confiscatory taxation".
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 17, 2022, 09:42:54 PM
Tell me more about their "remuneration", I thought you were a capitalist country? Does the nuclear sector need subsidies in Spain?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 18, 2022, 12:40:39 AM
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france.aspx (https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france.aspx)

France derives about 70% of its electricity from nuclear energy, due to a long-standing policy based on energy security. Government policy is to reduce this to 50% by 2035.
France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of generation, and gains over €3 billion per year from this.
The country has been very active in developing nuclear technology. Reactors and especially fuel products and services have been a significant export.
About 17% of France's electricity is from recycled nuclear fuel.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Siekmanski on February 18, 2022, 12:48:18 AM
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france.aspx (https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france.aspx)

France derives about 70% of its electricity from nuclear energy, due to a long-standing policy based on energy security. Government policy is to reduce this to 50% by 2035.
France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of generation, and gains over €3 billion per year from this.
The country has been very active in developing nuclear technology. Reactors and especially fuel products and services have been a significant export.
About 17% of France's electricity is from recycled nuclear fuel.


Facts vs ideology  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 18, 2022, 06:26:39 AM
The point about nuclear energy is this: What do we do with the radioactive waste that will continue to radiate for tens of thousands of years? The legislation is very different in the countries.
In Germany, a final repository for nuclear waste must be able to exist for 1 million years without outside human help.

Can anyone show me an artificial man-made building that is older than 5000 years? That's just a question that's going through my mind.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 18, 2022, 08:03:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Greenhorn on February 18, 2022, 08:04:23 AM
> The point about nuclear energy is this: What do we do with the radioactive waste that will continue to radiate for tens of thousands of years? The legislation is very different in the countries.

[sarcasm]
The USA found a solution in Iraq and Syria ...
[/sarcasm]
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 18, 2022, 08:41:14 AM
Caballero,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w

Be careful that you don't fall for the climate swindle. Even Climate Greta, one of the favorites of our GDI, now suddenly favors nuclear energy. That should make you think.

Just a hint from me, no offense.

> The point about nuclear energy is this: What do we do with the radioactive waste that will continue to radiate for tens of thousands of years? The legislation is very different in the countries.

Greenhorn,

[sarcasm]
The USA found a solution in Iraq and Syria ...
[/sarcasm]

this is really no fun. The so-called atomic semiotics has produced outstanding stylistic bloomers. They tried to answer questions such as: How can we guarantee that future generations will not carry out archaeological
excavations in final nuclear repositories? In what language should we warn future generations of the dangers?

Human languages change fundamentally every 800 to 1000 years. Today I am no longer able to read Martin Luther in the original, although that was just 500 years ago. With nuclear waste we are talking about
hundreds of thousands to millions of years. This is not an exaggeration: Plutonium has a half-life of approximately 24 000 years.

So what were the solutions proposed by a commission appointed by Reagan? Here are just two examples:

Honestly, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I first read such nonsense many years ago.

Whoever favors nuclear energy for solving whatever problems should first have answers to these questions and serious answers at that (no priests, nuclear cats etc.)
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: nidud on February 18, 2022, 09:01:04 AM
deleted
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: caballero on February 18, 2022, 09:51:59 AM
I'm ready to change my mind in almost every field in this life, just need good reasons.

I'm not a fan of Mrs Greta Thunberg at all, which doesn't mean that none of what she likes is not a good thing for me. Let see it first.

If we need destroy a wonderful forest to install wind turbines, I think that we are doing something wrong.

It is true, I would not like to have a nuclear power plant next to my house, but that does not mean that they are not necessary. Renewable energies have their great shortcomings and they need to burn natural gas to solve them, including coal, I think it is being burned in Germany. All to avoid nuclear power plants.

Perhaps, even if nuclear energy is not predominant, we may still need it. I have heard of fourth generation nuclear power plants that use even recycled nuclear material as fuel.

I am not an expert on this, but I would say that considering something religiously good is not a good idea. Let's see where the deficiencies are and how we can correct them in the best possible way.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 18, 2022, 11:04:22 AM
Caballero,

once again, do not fall into this trap.

If we need destroy a wonderful forest to install wind turbines, I think that we are doing something wrong.

That is absolutely right and I am with you on that.

It is true, I would not like to have a nuclear power plant next to my house, but that does not mean that they are not necessary.

Really? Please do not forget that there is always a military component behind the nuclear energy. The high proportion in France is mainly for maintaining the force de frappe. To be honest, reactors such as Cattenom are not exactly brilliant.
Fortunately, the crap reactor Fessenheim went off the grid in 2020. This may have saved us a lot of trouble.

Renewable energies have their great shortcomings ...

Yes, but only in the brain damaged form in which they are now applied. You can't get out of nuclear power - like Germany - and shut down conventional thermal power plants at the same time.
Wind energy is not baseload capable. But it's good to use for peak load. Right now, operators of existing wind turbines cannot feed into the grid when they could offer energy. The wheels then
rotate freely. Solar panel operators face similar problems. Electrical energy is difficult to store.

But how about this? Suppose you have an old abandoned mine. There is a height difference of several hundred meters (or yards, if you prefer that). If the wind is blowing properly or the sun is
shining and it is not possible to feed into the grid, you can pump water from the bottom to the top with this energy (at zero cost). You can then allow to flow off that water, if it is urgently required
and use it to operate a water turbine. This is how a pumped storage plant works. Completely without emissions and radioactive waste. But this requires political will and a well thought-out concept.

I calculated the generator for the Markersbach pumped storage plant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markersbach_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant) at that time. It has been working reliably since 1979.
How many closed mines do you think there are in Germany? Sometimes it's good to think a little.

I hope that my arguments have made you think. Unlike others, I am not ideologically blinded and can already see the problems realistically.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 18, 2022, 11:50:47 AM
I have seen a couple of variants on that, very big flywheels is one, and a very heavy weight down a deep hole that you wind up in the day time and let its mass slowly descend driving a generator at night.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 18, 2022, 12:35:28 PM
Steve,

I have seen a couple of variants on that, very big flywheels is one, and a very heavy weight down a deep hole that you wind up in the day time and let its mass slowly descend driving a generator at night.

that is correct. One can think of various technical solutions to the problem. The particularities of the individual countries and regions must be taken into account.
In Germany alone, there are hundreds - if not more - abandoned mines: Silver mines, hard coal mines, uranium mines etc. The situation is similar in France and Poland.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: HSE on February 19, 2022, 01:04:21 AM
I calculated the generator for the Markersbach pumped storage plant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markersbach_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant) at that time. It has been working reliably since 1979.
That look interesting. Which are conversion efficiencies?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 19, 2022, 05:09:03 AM
That look interesting. Which are conversion efficiencies?

This is a question you should ask the operator of the power plant (Vattenfall).

When the power plant was started in 1979, water was pumped from the lower basin to the upper basin using cheap night electricity. This is the classic operation of a pumped storage plant.
If you read carefully, you will notice that in my post from here (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=9843.msg108108#msg108108) I started from different premises. The Francis turbine or the Ossberger turbine does not care how the water gets from
the lower basin to the upper basin. It'll drive the generator in any case. Even if the water is pumped up from below with wind or solar energy at zero cost. That is precisely the trick: the intermediate
storage of electrical energy in mechanical energy.

By assigning this task to existing wind turbines, which often idle and cannot feed directly into the grid, the efficiency balance (in an economic sense) would be quite positive.

Was that the meaning of your question? But don't worry, there are quite other concepts related to electrolysis, photosynthesis (very important for our life!). Unfortunately, I am not allowed to write further about this at the moment.
That's the topic of a project funded by the EU. I have pretty deep insight there and don't talk from my gut.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 19, 2022, 05:26:51 AM
Nidud,

The Finns solved this by storing it in a safe location 300m under ground. If you expand and make room for the power plant as well I think you have a workable solution.

If anything goes wrong you just dump some cement down the shaft and seal it off.

Oh yes, the Finns. I know the documentary about the world's first "end repository" for radioactive waste.

The situation in Finland is fundamentally different. There the radioactive garbage must lie only 100 000 years (1 000 000 years in Germany!). But check the half-life of uranium or thorium. In this context are 100 000 years simply ridiculous.

But the fundamental question is: An end repository must function without human intervention. Should your beton (cement is a powder and must be mixed with water and sand to make beton) automatically run in when something happens? Even if you could somehow solve this technically (very difficult): Will your beton also last for tens of thousands of years?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Greenhorn on February 19, 2022, 05:30:56 AM
> ..., photosynthesis (very important for our life!).

Years ago I read an article about that topic. It said that photosynthesis still isn't fully understood, but if it could be unraveled, one can develope the most efficient solar panels because photosynthesis is the most efficient way of solar energy production.
Nature/Life has always the most efficient solutions for all occuring problems.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 19, 2022, 05:38:43 AM
Greenhorn,

Years ago I read an article about that topic. It said that photosynthesis still isn't fully understood, but if it could be unraveled, one can develope the most efficient solar panels because photosynthesis is the most efficient way of solar energy production.
Nature/Life has always the most efficient solutions for all occuring problems.

That is correct. Reasonable biologists say that photosynthesis is a very important basis of life. In the process, plants convert CO2 (my God, this climate killer!) into oxygen, which, as we know, we urgently need for breathing.
But let's wait and see what our GDI has to say about it. 
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 19, 2022, 06:47:52 AM
In the process, plants convert CO2 (my God, this climate killer!) into oxygen, which, as we know, we urgently need for breathing.

Wow, the CERN scientist speaking. If all atmospheric CO2 was split into C and O2 (provoking a new ice age), the concentration of O2 would jump from 20.95% to almost 20.98%. Brilliant idea :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 19, 2022, 07:53:31 AM
Wow, the CERN scientist speaking. If all atmospheric CO2 was split into C and O2 (provoking a new ice age), the concentration of O2 would jump from 20.95% to almost 20.98%. Brilliant idea :thumbsup:

With this you really show everyone here what a chatterbox you are.

Here is the gross formula of photosynthesis: 12 H2O + 6 CO2 + 48 light quanta → C6H12O6 + 6 O2 + 6 H2O
The reaction is endothermic, ΔG0 = -2 880 kJ / mol glucose. That's a little bit of biophysics.

And now: Go to the bottom of the class! Optionally, you can also ask to delete this thread. It wouldn't be the first time, would it?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 19, 2022, 09:36:10 AM
Something that does not seem to have been properly exploited is energy derived from the orbit of the moon, IE => tidal energy in the form of water movement. Splits into 2 forms, wave energy and tidal movements. There are areas around the world that have higher than 10 metres tidal difference and it the right context, there is massive power available that would convert directly into electricity.

Solar has its uses if there will ever be a decent technique for power storage and wind energy has a similar advantage if you can put it in the right place but both are intermittent where anything that works off the rotation of the planet and the orbit of the moon is far closer to being consistent without the time and atmospheric drop outs.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: HSE on February 19, 2022, 11:11:03 AM
This is a question you shouhld ask the operator of the power plant (Vattenfall).
Ok. For the electric system that solve the "excedente problem". Even it can pay a little for that.

For wind mills already installed that solve unexpected unproductive time. Any increase in use improve economic numbers.

But for future developments, efficiency impact in costs.

You have a good point, first go to take adventage of what is already deployed  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 19, 2022, 01:56:42 PM
Steve,

Something that does not seem to have been properly exploited is energy derived from the orbit of the moon, IE => tidal energy in the form of water movement. Splits into 2 forms, wave energy and tidal movements. There are areas around the world that have higher than 10 metres tidal difference and it the right context, there is massive power available that would convert directly into electricity.

for classical power plants with tidal range there are about 100 - 150 suitable bays worldwide. The Kaplan turbine is mostly used for this purpose. But due to the salt water, there is severe corrosion on the turbine.
But that's only one problem. Another is the different amplitudes and phases between spring tide, middle tide and neap tide. It'll be difficult to achieve continuous operation with tidal power plants.
 
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 19, 2022, 02:08:47 PM
You have a good point, first go to take adventage of what is already deployed  :thumbsup:

Yes, that's the trick. If you want to convince someone, you have to discuss the matter. Ideology doesn't help here.

By the way, intermediate storage of electrical energy in mechanical energy is not the only variant. Intermediate storage as chemical energy is also already practiced. And don't worry: This will not provoke a new ice age (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=9843.msg108135#msg108135).
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 19, 2022, 02:25:18 PM
Kaplan turbine, an interesting technology for fixed hydro electric applications but probably not for coastal tidal energy sources. The location I had in mind was near Broome in west OZ.

https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/0b/39/aa/83.jpg (https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/0b/39/aa/83.jpg)

This double inlet has massive volumes of water and a fixed hydro style application would not work there. Something that floated so it rose and fell with the tide would make more sense.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 19, 2022, 10:12:26 PM
Germans have an other own secrets too :undecided:
https://www.rt.com/news/549921-nato-expansion-russia-document/

Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: jj2007 on February 19, 2022, 10:27:49 PM
Germans have an other own secrets too :undecided:
https://www.rt.com/news/549921-nato-expansion-russia-document/

Yesterday evening the Heute Show (https://www.zdf.de/comedy/heute-show) showed a video with Foreign Minister Genscher saying exactly: no NATO enlargement. I fully understand that the Russians feel cheated.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 20, 2022, 01:05:50 AM
@Gunther
Finns knows , who are unreliable partners.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: hutch-- on February 20, 2022, 02:01:48 AM
There is something obvious that not all that many are aware of, the invasion of Russia and the population losses were traumatic to the whole country so the modern Russia rather than the old Soviet are deadly serious about not being invaded again.

It may suit American business interests to block Russia and make Europe more dependent on high priced US energy supplies but it would be a huge disposition to much of Europe in terms of energy prices and reliable energy supply. Manufacturing countries like Germany and France would be slugged very badly by much higher energy prices which in turn would effect their pricing and competitiveness in their manufacturing field.

The current fiasco in Ukraine is effectively trying to drive a wedge between Europe and Russia to assist American corporations to sell uncompetitive high priced energy to Europe. Last I heard in the news was that the Ukrainian army are shelling Donbas to try and force the Russians to retaliate.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: HSE on February 20, 2022, 02:25:07 AM
Intermediate storage as chemical energy is also already practiced. And don't worry: This will not provoke a new ice age (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=9843.msg108135#msg108135).
  :biggrin: Naturally, idea is to store energy some hours, not to kill life on earth.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 20, 2022, 04:27:22 AM
HSE,

  :biggrin: Naturally, idea is to store energy some hours, not to kill life on earth.

Well, you can store mechanical or chemical energy much longer than just a few hours. This is what practice shows.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 20, 2022, 04:38:59 AM
@Gunther
Finns knows , who are unreliable partners.

I don't understand what you mean.

I have not said in a single syllable that Finns can't be relied upon. I've only articulated my concerns in this post (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=9843.msg108100#msg108100) and this (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=9843.msg108130#msg108130) one. You should please read that again.

Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 20, 2022, 05:40:37 AM
@Gunther
Finns knows , who are unreliable partners.

I don't understand what you mean.

I have not said in a single syllable that Finns can't be relied upon. I've only articulated my concerns in this post (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=9843.msg108100#msg108100) and this (http://masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=9843.msg108130#msg108130) one. You should please read that again.
You propably know what i mean, but you don't accept my opinions.
Now others know a your weak points.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 20, 2022, 06:04:34 AM
Steve,

your picture shows a great bay. I've never seen that before.

Kaplan turbine, an interesting technology for fixed hydro electric applications but probably not for coastal tidal energy sources.

My turbine knowledge doesn't go very deep. I have always worked on the side of the electrical generator.

This double inlet has massive volumes of water and a fixed hydro style application would not work there. Something that floated so it rose and fell with the tide would make more sense.

I would always ask a turbine specialist about such specific questions as you ask. My former section manager was a specialist in water and steam turbines - two very different worlds. If he
is still alive, he should be around 90 years old. I'm going to ask around. However, it will take a while - we have a pandemic here.  :eusa_boohoo:

I'll get back to you via PM when I know more.
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: Gunther on February 20, 2022, 06:26:22 AM
You propably know what i mean, but you don't accept my opinions.

Probably.

Now others know a your weak points.

Do you personally believe what you write?
Title: Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
Post by: TimoVJL on February 20, 2022, 07:11:04 AM
Do you personally believe what you write?
You should just think what other users believe, my part is just too tiny.
If you are academic person and i was just a system specialist, so a your words weight more than mine and if you teach, you are more responsible what you say to others.