Author Topic: Some background on Ukraine/Russia  (Read 471 times)

NoCforMe

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Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« on: October 02, 2022, 07:24:45 AM »
If you're interested in the genesis of the war in Ukraine, please take a look at these two videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEIFwLKlq1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4zReg7Bhu8

The first one is an introductory piece, the second more in-depth. The person here is former Swiss intelligence officer, senior United Nations official, and NATO advisor Jacques Baud, who was in Ukraine in 2014. This guy obviously knows where the bodies are buried, so to speak.

If anyone still believes that the Russian invasion was "unprovoked", this guy totally demolishes that idea. And he's not an ideologue with an axe to grind, but actually the most impartial observer possible, plus someone with extensive on-the-ground military experience in Ukraine. This should be essential viewing for anyone having anything to do with policy-making on this situation.

Key statement by Baud, in the 2nd video about the 20 minute mark:

Quote
The West as a whole made every possible effort to prevent a political solution to the conflict.

TimoVJL

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NoCforMe

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2022, 08:03:57 AM »
Hey, thank you for that!

José Roca

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2022, 08:19:11 AM »
According to journalist Antoine Hasday, published by Conspiracy Watch, an interview Jacques Baud gave to RT France "ticks all the boxes of geopolitical conspiracism. Baud, who is sometimes invited by the traditional media, has also appeared on the extreme right-wing web television channel TV Libertés, as well as previously on RT France. Interviewed on the latter channel by Frédéric Taddeï in September 2020, he minimized the human toll of the war in Darfur, which he reduced to 2,500 deaths (compared to 300,000 according to the UN), and denied the responsibility of the Syrian army in the massacres in Homs in 2011 and in the chemical attacks in Ghouta, Khan Cheikhoun and Douma between 2013 and 2018. Taking up the official argument of the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad, he also asserts that the photographs taken by the military photographer "César" are not those of political opponents who died under torture, but of soldiers of the Syrian army. Jacques Baud also clears Russia by saying that the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal was caused by "food poisoning" and that the poisoning of Alexei Navalny is probably "the work of the mafia".

Original in French: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Baud

José Roca

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2022, 08:22:55 AM »
Sur RT France, Jacques Baud coche toutes les cases du conspirationnisme géopolitique

https://www.conspiracywatch.info/sur-rt-france-jacques-baud-coche-toutes-les-cases-du-conspirationnisme-geopolitique.html

NoCforMe

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2022, 08:29:53 AM »
You know, José, you are pretty despicable; not a troll, any more than I am, but one who just regurgitates the Washington consensus American Empire united front against Russia/China propaganda. I'm not going to get down in the mud with you regarding your "shoot the messenger" attempt at poisoning the well here, except to say that regarding Syria, I can see the fingerprints of the Western propaganda machine all over your posting. What happened in Homs that is now an article of faith with the West, that Assad "gassed his own people", has been pretty conclusively proven to have been an chemical-weapons attack by the Western-backed "rebels" against the Syrian government, not the other way around.

So you can keep peddling this bullshit, and you're certainly in good company here, as any of us who fucking dare to question the mainstream narrative here are likely to be suppressed, written off as Russian bots and Kremlin puppets, but we're going to keep trying to break through the smokescreen of propaganda.

NoCforMe

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2022, 08:42:45 AM »
So do I know for sure about any of the allegations of atrocities committed in the Ukraine war, by either side? No, how could I possibly know that?

Do I believe what I read in the media about such atrocities? No.

Jacques Baud is actually the voice of reason here when it comes to evaluating such reports. From the transcript of the video I posted a link to:

Quote
What disturbs me in the whole thing is not so much that we don’t know, because in war there’s always such situations, there are always situations where you don’t know exactly who is really responsible.  What disturbs me is that Western leaders started to make decisions without knowing what’s going on and what happened.

And that’s something that disturbs me quite deeply, that before having any result of any kind of inquiry, of investigation, and I mean international, impartial investigation, without having that we start already to take sanctions, to make decisions, and I think that illustrates how the whole decision-making process in the West was perverted.  Since February or even before, in fact, because we had a similar thing after the hijacking—or not hijacking, by the way, it was not a hijacking—but the incident in Belarus with this Ryanair flight.  You may remember last May, last year, that people started to react just minutes after the incident was reported in the press, even they didn’t know what was going on!  So, that’s this way of doing from the political leadership in Europe, I mean the European Union, but also in European countries.  That disturbs me as an intelligence officer.  How can you make a decision with such impact on populations or on whole countries that disturbs even our own economies?  So, it tends to backfire on us.  But we take decisions without even knowing what’s going on, and that, I think, indicates an extremely immature leadership that we have in the West in general.  That’s certainly the case in the US, but I think in this example of the Ukraine crisis shows that the European leadership is not better than what you have in the US.  It’s probably even worse, I think, sometimes.  So, that’s what should worry us, that you have people deciding based on nothing, and that’s extremely dangerous.

In other words, the leadership of the West, including the Pentagon, is quite willing to jump to conclusions in the immediate aftermath of reports of atrocities--which do occur in war all the time, let's not forget--and set policy based on those conclusions based on no information, or limited or inconclusive information. Which is batshit insane. These people are functionally insane, and I'm talking about the official leaders of my country and your country. Fucking insane.

Baud is the reasonable one here when he insists on waiting until actual impartial inquiries and investigations have been allowed to complete. Like in the case of Syria, where the original report of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which assigned blame to the "rebels" and not to the Assad regime, was later rewritten to reverse its findings, over the strenuous objections of the original authors.

You could read about it yourself, if you're not afraid to stray from "official sources" for your research.

José Roca

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2022, 09:16:23 AM »
I will not return your insults. I don't want to sink as low as you.

You say that "the original report of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which assigned blame to the "rebels" and not to the Assad regime, was later rewritten to reverse its findings, over the strenuous objections of the original authors." Prove it providing a link to that report.

On June 13, the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) published a new report investigating the use of chemical weapons. It confirms with a high degree of certainty that sarin was used in Latamneh, Syria, on March 24, 2017, and that chlorine was used in another attack on the same town on March 25.

The fight against the proliferation of chemical weapons is a priority. France is strongly committed to this issue, and on January 23 launched the International Partnership against Impunity for the Use of Chemical Weapons, supported by 34 nations. This OPCW report underscores the urgency of establishing, as swiftly as possible, a new mechanism to determine those responsible for these attacks, as Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs Jean-Yves Le Drian emphasized at the Partnership’s first meeting in Paris on May 18. There can be no impunity for those who develop or use such weapons.

This is the sixteenth OPCW report confirming the use of a chemical weapon or a toxic substance similar to a chemical weapon in the Syrian conflict. As a reminder, the UN and OPCW’s Joint Investigative Mechanism (JIM) had determined that the Syrian armed forces were responsible in at least four cases. Russia vetoed attempts to renew its mandate three times.

https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/security-disarmament-and-non-proliferation/news/2018/article/chemical-weapons-opcw-report-on-the-use-of-chemical-weapons-in-syria-13-06-18





NoCforMe

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2022, 09:25:18 AM »
Watch this video:

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/07/26/syrian-insurgents-guilty-of-red-line-2013-sarin-chemical-attack-study-finds/

then get back to me. It's long, I know (1:09) but well worth the time spent.

A forensic team did an exhaustive analysis of the attack site, the surrounding area, the location of the Syrian forces at the time, and showed conclusively that the attack could not possibly have come from them.

The French government, along with every other Western government, has its own reasons why it chooses to not only ignore the findings of this (and other) reports (including research by some of the original OPCW members), but to inoculate anyone against the disease of believing anything which contradicts the official "narrative".

And the primary purpose of that narrative? To punish, weaken and isolate Russia (and, soon, China), and to ensure the lasting supremacy of the "liberal", "democratic" and "human rights-respecting" West. At the point of a nuclear warhead if necessary. Yes, it really is that "conspiratorial" (and batshit insane). That's how things work here in the human sphere down here on planet Earth.

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hutch--

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2022, 12:11:46 PM »
Hi José,

Do you remember Saddam Hussein, and the weapons of mass destruction ? How that wicked Saddam was going to attack the world and how Colin Powell lied to the United nations and how if you did not believe this bullsh*t, you were a raghead terrorist putting the world at risk ?

This is the class of information you keep posting, western propaganda of the worst kind, the kind that justified civilian attacks in Syria (Sorry, it was collateral damage) and the kind that still sees killing civilians in East Ukraine as acceptable (they are only Russians, they are sub human, etc ....)

I do not believe for a moment that the vast majority of people living in western countries support the atricities being committed in their name. There is in fact a far simpler explanation for why western govenments attack places like Syria and Russia, its the ownership of the resources.

Syria has oil that is being stolen by the US and Russia has massive resources that some western companies would love to get their hands on. They almost succeeded when that old piss pot Yeltsin allowed them to get their hooks into resources in Russia but that wicked ex KGB ex communist, Komrade Putin R_SOULED them out the door and took back control of Russia's resources so that the income went into Russia, not some American or English corporation.

This is what the current attack on Russia is about, trying to control Russian resources. Now the response you risk is seeing a blinding flash on the horizon, followed shortly by a shock wave travelling at the speed of sound that torches forests, blow out buildings and depopulates the area. Anything that survives willl be exposed to massive radiation and will die an unhappy death. You could start digging a bunker and stack it with a life time's amount of food.  :tongue:
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TimoVJL

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2022, 05:59:57 PM »
Nuclear weapons don't solve that small area's problem and don't change history connected to that war and how it will be written afterwards.
Hope we see good explanations, what led that war.

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Gunther

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2022, 07:36:42 PM »
Watch this video:

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/07/26/syrian-insurgents-guilty-of-red-line-2013-sarin-chemical-attack-study-finds/

then get back to me. It's long, I know (1:09) but well worth the time spent.

You're absolutely right in your argumentation. I stand by your side. But it is useless to discuss with these keyboard sluts. These miserable leftovers of the gang of four here
in the forum are very deeply entangled in the web of lies. Fear is already breathing down their necks. You just have to read their lousy posts carefully and you'll realize that.

But as the saying goes: Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Isaiah 5:20 KJV)
You have to know the facts before you can distort them.

caballero

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2022, 08:17:49 PM »
I am afraid that José is irretrievable, he is some kind of fanatic with whom one cannot have a constructive conversation, starting from the assumption that one may be wrong. If he doesn't like something, try to discredit it under the assumption of "super extreme far right +" and there is not the slightest bother in trying to reason it out. Unfortunately, this is a method that works for him where he lives, which is why he uses it so frequently.

In the West we assume that Russia has no reason to have invaded Ukraine, so it is a simple act of territorial piracy and Zelensky is fighting for all over Europe. And to maintain this story, the connection of any information coming from Russia is prevented and, surprisingly, no Western media is capable of sustaining any kind of critical argument, as has recently happened with covid. We are witnessing, therefore, an evident setback in freedoms in the West.

Whether we like it or not, Russia is, in some way, equivalent to the USA in terms of military power. So it would not be understandable to surround the USA with military bases and missile launchers capable of nuclear weapons by a rival foreign power, since the USA would respond in the same way that Russia has done, this cannot be done with Russia either, at least it is not The ideal.

On the other hand, it seems that anti-Russian sentiment is growing in the now independent former USSR republics. To the point that in eastern Ukraine there have been attempts to ethnically cleanse Russian-speakers.

In the economic field we have that, before the beginning of this war, the USA blocked the use of the Nord Stream 2 to Germany, already completely finished, by means of sanctions to the companies that tried to invest in the project. How is it possible that a third country, supposedly a friend, prevents another country, such as Germany and Russia, from doing advantageous business? Why should Russia manage the geopolitical pressure described above and also commercial?

The West has been robbed of information on the civil war in Donbass, as well as the possible intervention of the USA/Soros in Euromaidan. At least I haven't known about it until now because I investigated on my own, for ordinary people this is unknown, they only know about the Russian invasion.

Finally, the kind of sabotage of the Nord Stream pipes, whose most likely responsible would be the USA. Which puts added pressure on Russia and also Europe.

Europe has taken a decisive position on electrification, giving up exploiting all kinds of its own natural resources, which is why it needs Natural gas. For this it would be very beneficial to receive cheap gas from Russia. Cutting off this supply is a crushing blow, especially for Europe. By the way, electrification, the obligatory nature of the electric car, is going to be a devastating blow for the automotive sector in Europe. This is called shooting yourself in the foot.
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TimoVJL

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2022, 08:42:43 PM »
And all started just after 2008 ...

EDIT: 2005, keyword Schröder and North Stream ...
https://en.topwar.ru/125525-shreder-ni-odin-iz-posledovateley-putina-krym-ne-otdast.html

« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 03:22:41 AM by TimoVJL »
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Gunther

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Re: Some background on Ukraine/Russia
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2022, 10:02:31 PM »
This is called shooting yourself in the foot.

That's right. Or in other words: They are sawing off the branch they are sitting on - to speak mildly.

And all started just after 2008 ...

What are you trying to tell us with this convoluted stuff?
You have to know the facts before you can distort them.