Author Topic: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end  (Read 1149 times)

hutch--

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Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« on: October 17, 2022, 09:30:03 AM »
This is an interesting video from an influential American, Douglas Macgregor.

Tragic but inevitable end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABfZW9IeTYQ
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NoCforMe

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2022, 11:23:13 AM »
I agree with everything that was said there.

Unfortunately, it appears to be from a "fringe" source, Aaron Mate's Greyzone, which is a completely marginalized site. He's been quarantined by the Washington Consensus crowd to a place that's associated with right-wingers and others who deviate from the Official Narrative. So chances are very few people here (U.S.) are hearing this message.

hutch--

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2022, 12:19:01 PM »
I confess I don't understand the rational, get a massive number of Ukrainians killed and really p*ss off the Russians so they flatten the remains of Ukraine. The conclusion to this war is already known, why waste so many lives, especially as they are now dragging people off the streets and with no training, send them off to get killed.
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caballero

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jj2007

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2022, 07:21:49 AM »
Wot? The Orange Donald has joined the woke pacifist movement??

Quote
Trump: We must demand immediate negotiation of the war in Ukraine or we will end up in World War III. And there will be nothing left of our planet. They do not understand the power of nuclear energy.

caballero

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2022, 08:48:32 AM »
Quote
China announces that it will stop selling liquefied natural gas to foreign buyers, mainly Europe, ahead of the upcoming winter season, where a high demand for this raw material is expected.

In other words, the natural gas that Europe was still buying from Russia through China will no longer be available.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/mercados/2022-10-17/china-tension-invierno-bloque-venta-gas-natural-europa-putin-guerra-ucrania_3507539/#:~:text=Vlad%C3%ADmir%20Putin%20se%20est%C3%A1%20encontrando,Europa%2C%20para%20garantizar%20su%20suministro.
The logic of the error is hidden among the most unexpected lines of the program

hutch--

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2022, 09:42:43 AM »
> Wot? The Orange Donald has joined the woke pacifist movement??

You won't get peace from the loonie left, the rabid right knows how to make a buck$ and war is only profitable for the military/industrial complex. The price of the electoral scam that installed Biden and Harris is a potential nuclear war with Russia. Kewel Huh !
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NoCforMe

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2022, 12:22:08 PM »
To put things into better perspective, warmongering is not a left/right issue: some people think "left=peace, right=war", but that's not how it works at all.

Here in the arguably most war-prone country in the world, the U.S., belligerence, and our habit of stepping in militarily all over the world, is a strictly bipartisan affair. In fact, one could make a pretty good argument that the so-called "left" (i.e., the Democrats, and I'm choking a bit as I type that) are even more eager to be seen as capable of raining bombs on people, so as not to be mistaken for wimps, than their supposedly more bellicose Republican counterparts. Plus notice how the parties have done pretty much a 180° on Russia since the late part of the last century. The Dems, who used to used to defend civil liberties against the Repub's Commie witch-hunts, now hate Vlad much more than them and seem willing to all but risk nuclear war to try to bring him down.

But the main influence, which you don't read about at all in the MSM, has nothing at all to do with right/left politics: it's the unholy alliance between government and the arms industry. That alone is enough to keep this misbegotten, totally unnecessary war going for a very long time.

They are all, as my departed hero Alexander Cockburn called them, "laptop bombardiers".

Regarding Donald Trump, as horrible a president as he was (and a person as well), you could say he was right sometimes in a "stopped clock" way. Two important things: his impulse, not carried through but earnest, to get us out of the nightmare of Afghanistan, and his (ineffective, stupid, chaotic) feelers of peace towards North Korea. I believe in giving credit where credit is due. No, he was no peacenik, but in rare moments he could see the writing on the wall. If only Biden & co. could do the same.


NoCforMe

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2022, 01:14:21 PM »
A comment from an article on Antiwar.com (https://news.antiwar.com/2022/10/16/attacks-on-russias-belgorod-region-intensify/). Couldn't have said it better myself:

Quote
If the US-NATO hadn't relentlessly poked, crowded and threatened the Russian bear since 1998, it's extremely unlikely that there would be a war.

If the US hadn't fostered a Nazi-fronted coup in 2014, it's extremely unlikely that there would be a war.

If the extremist-dominated post-coup regime in Kiev hadn't waged an eight-year assault on the Donbass (despite being convincingly-defeated there, twice), it's extremely unlikely that there would be a war.

If the Kiev regime and the Western guarantors had fulfilled their obligations under the Minsk Accords, it's extremely unlikely that there would be a war.

If the Biden administration hadn't upped the ante with its enhanced bear-poking behavior in 2021, it's unlikely that there would be a war.

If the Biden administration hadn't arrogantly scorned Russia's perfectly-reasonable proposals for mutual security arrangements in December of last year, it's extremely unlikely there would be a war.

If the USUK-NATO hadn't torpedoed peace talks in March of this year, it's reasonable to believe that the war would have ended then.

If the US-NATO hadn't propped up the Kiev regime, providing a massive flow of weapons, training, intelligence, and "advisory assistance" to Ukrainian forces, the war would almost certainly be over by now.

It is perfectly-obvious to any well-informed and honest observer that "US-NATO and the Ukrainian puppets from hell really don't want this war to end."

Russia believes, not unreasonably, that it is reacting to an existential threat. It is not going to withdraw from the regions that it now considers parts of Russia. Ukraine can't make that happen by force and USUKEU-NATO can't do it without provoking what might quickly escalate to full-scale war in Europe and perhaps WWII.

TimoVJL

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caballero

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2022, 05:51:09 PM »
The logic of the error is hidden among the most unexpected lines of the program

NoCforMe

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2022, 06:18:15 PM »
Oh, give me a fucking break. What horseshit. Trump was the pussy-grabber supreme. Biden may have his faults but they're nothing but virtues compared to the Orange fucker.

jj2007

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2022, 07:43:07 PM »
More to read:
https://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2022/10/17/where-us-and-ukrainian-war-aims-collide/

Indeed:

Quote
For Russia, the worse the war situation is, the sooner comes the day when Putin must either play his ace of spades to avoid defeat, or accept defeat, humiliation and his potential overthrow in Moscow.

As Russia’s use of nuclear weapons...

Trump was the pussy-grabber supreme. Biden may have his faults but they're nothing but virtues compared to the Orange fucker.

Trump was and is disgusting, but Biden is definitely senile and creepy - watch the video! Not to mention Clinton: I have no problem with his cigar being caressed by Monica, but I will never forgive him that he launched a war ("Key achievements during the second term included ... NATO enlargement, the 1998 bombing of Iraq") to distract from that little incident.

hutch--

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2022, 07:57:24 PM »
 :biggrin:

Quote
For Russia, the worse the war situation is, the sooner comes the day when Putin must either play his ace of spades to avoid defeat, or accept defeat, humiliation and his potential overthrow in Moscow.

As Russia’s use of nuclear weapons...
That sounds like a load of horse sh*t. There is a tendency in Western MSM to believe their own bullsh*t and caricaturing Putin when its his generals that decide military tacctics. Putin is the president of Russia, not the minister of defence. Its part of the MSM propaganda to personalise the war effort as Putin did this, Putin did that. Would the MSM run a set of editorials about Zelensky did this, Zelensky did that ?

I expect war propaganda from both sides but the near endless war footage coming out of their ministry of defence is not Hollywood, its the ugly reality of Ukrainian men being massacred by the Russian meat grinder.

No-one is going to use nuclear weapons as they would not be game. Both the US and Russia have massive nuclear arsenals as well as the Chinese and if it started, the bugs would inherit the earth.
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NoCforMe

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Re: Ukraine, Tragic but inevitable end
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2022, 08:11:04 PM »
No-one is going to use nuclear weapons as they would not be game. Both the US and Russia have massive nuclear arsenals as well as the Chinese and if it started, the bugs would inherit the earth.

Let's just hope you're right about that.