The solution to gun violence in schools.

[hutch--]

Utah teachers trained to use guns

http://media.smh.com.au/

Good to see someone in the US is willing to protect the kids in schools.

[MichaelW]

Yes, it is good.

I had a short discussion of this with my sister, formerly a teacher with a concealed carry license. I don’t recall her exact wording, but she expressed the opinion that only selected teachers should be allowed to carry guns, and mentioned ex-military as a qualification.

[jj2007]

...and mentioned ex-military as a qualification.

That sounds convincing. Vietnam vets teaching your kids history is a brilliant idea. And I am sure the reps will accept a minor tax increase to finance that :t

Minor problem: There are about half a Million elementary schools in the U.S.; will you find enough vets?

[MichaelW]

...and mentioned ex-military as a qualification.

That sounds convincing. Vietnam vets teaching your kids history is a brilliant idea. And I am sure the reps will accept a minor tax increase to finance that :t

Minor problem: There are about half a Million elementary schools in the U.S.; will you find enough vets?

We have 20+ million vets here. And what is wrong with having a vet for a teacher? Virtually everyone I knew had a vet for a father, and vets for uncles. And almost all of the male teachers of that era were vets. And I seriously doubt that my sister would have suggested this if she did not know vets who were teachers.

I think your response here explains some things. You apparently know very little about us as a people. This could explain why you blindly expect our statistics to be in line with those of other countries. And why you seem unable to recognize Bill’s distortions as what they are.

[Bill Cravener]

And why you seem unable to recognize Bill’s distortions as what they are.

Distortions? I deal only in facts. Prove it otherwise. You are a funny fellow Michael!

Every time I hear of another mass shooting in our schools, our malls, our movie theaters or at our political rallies and elsewhere I ask when will this growing madness end? Armed guards in schools, perhaps it may stop another school massacre, perhaps not, but what does it say about American society and its fetish for guns. Is this the kind of society we want to live in? I sure as hell do not!!

A handgun wearing guard in a school doesn’t stand much of a chance against a nut with rapid fire assault rifle wearing a bullet proof vest does he? Are we going to have to have guards carrying assault rifles as well in our schools? I do not believe more guns are the answer to stopping the growing slaughter in America. Trying to prevent shootings in schools without talking about guns is like trying to prevent lung cancer without talking about cigarettes. There are over 100,000 public elementary and secondary schools in the U.S., thousands more if private schools, med schools, law schools and other post graduate schools are counted, with over 55,000,000 students.

We have become a crazed gun-obsessed country and I fear for us deeply. Having our kids killed as well as other innocence is outrageous. Think about it, our Founding Fathers would have been horrified at what we have done with their Second Amendment.

[hutch--]

Bill,

Apart from your views on a gun culture which I might add are not without merit, in the immediate term getting the teachers to protect the kids would have to be a priority rather than leaving them as easy targets for loonies and an ongoing justification for the gun grabbers. Make that task of murdering young children a risky business and you will see it drop off. It will not be perfect and it may happen again but making it a risky business has got to be a good first step.

If there is merit in removing a range of guns from US society then it will need to be argued on its merits, not over the dead bodies of innocent children. I personally agree that a range of weapons should not be available, anything rapid fire, Uzzis, various machine pistols and if handguns are to be allowed, then they should be openly displayed for general ownership. It does make sense for at least some people to conceal them, some law enforcement folks, teachers and so on but anyone else that carries a gun should be easily identified as carrying a gun.

A recent move in California collected guns that many people did not want and they got something for it, this removed a pile of unwanted weapons from society so they could not be passed along to people who will misuse them.

Michael is right in that different countries have different histories in relation to firearms, the Swiss for example have a high ratio of assault weapon ownership yet you don't hear of mass shooting in Switzerland all that often if ever. We have a gun history here in OZ but its almost exclusively for feral animal control. The US has a long history of private gun ownership thanks to the second amendment and this is not going to change quickly.

What can change over time is how this is implemented, get rid of any rapid fire weapons, restrict handguns and force them to be seen while defending the vulnerable in society and you will see the changes over time. The only losers are the gun grabbers who don't care what the cost is as long as they succeed in disarming entire societies.

[MichaelW]

A handgun wearing guard in a school doesn’t stand much of a chance against a nut with rapid fire assault rifle wearing a bullet proof vest does he? Are we going to have to have guards carrying assault rifles as well in our schools? I do not believe more guns are the answer to stopping the growing slaughter in America. Trying to prevent shootings in schools without talking about guns is like trying to prevent lung cancer without talking about cigarettes.

Ah, another of your distortions, how considerate of you.

This thread is about armed teachers, but since you used the word “guard” twice, I’m assuming that you mean guard.

What kind of picture did you have in mind when you typed that, a town marshal and a gunslinger facing off in the street at high noon? Do you recall my statement about the guard being part of an intelligently designed security and access control system? Who other than a total moron would design a system that would allow an armed intruder to enter the building and then shoot the guard? The idea is that the guard, and indirectly the kids, has all of the advantages and the intruder has none.

And we are talking about guns. You’re talking about taking them away from law-abiding people, and I’m talking about these people using them to protect themselves and others.

[nidud]

deleted

[dedndave]

i think it's great that they are training teachers
in fact, there are many things that should be covered - not just the use of guns
whether or not they can hit the side of a barn, they should at least know how to handle one safely

[Bill Cravener]

And we are talking about guns. You’re talking about taking them away from law-abiding people, and I’m talking about these people using them to protect themselves and others.

I am confused how the suggestion that America needs stricter gun control is distorted by you and other gun proponents to mean all guns would be removed from all citizens (gun grabbers). That is absurd and would never happen. Hell if that were the case I’d no longer be able to hunt as I have for some 50 years, something I greatly enjoy. The simple fact is guns of most any kind are just too easy to get hold of here in America by anyone with no questions asked. Not all gun owners are gun worshippers but there are way too many that are acquiring guns without background checks of any kind who are. That fact needs to change and the only way is by stricter gun control.

As to teachers carrying guns, that will be a tough one to sale. My niece is an English teacher at a fairly large public school and the idea of teachers being trained to carry and operate a handgun has been discussed with near total disapproval. No, your average school teacher wants nothing to do with guns and most teachers will never go for lock and loading everyday before they enter the classroom. The only other possible solution against school students being slaughtered would be armed guards patrolling the corridors.

Even so like Sandy Hook a nut isn’t going to enter thru the front door he will shoot out a window and enter or even more frightening just open fire thru classroom windows at the panicking students within. I guess we will have to replace all school windows with bullet proof glass or eliminate windows in classrooms all together to stop that from ever happening.

[nidud]

deleted

[Magnum]

If an armed teacher had been there, a head shot would have ended it pretty quickly if they had body armor
or have full metal jacket rounds.

I am a little uncomfortable with a gun around a school, maybe limit a school to no more than one licensed person.

Andy

[dedndave]

it's kind of subjective to "pick a teacher with good judgement"
of all the teachers i remember in public school, that would be about half   :lol:
but, they could certainly have some level of training on how to handle abnormal emergency situations

[hutch--]

Bill,

I am confused how the suggestion that America needs stricter gun control is distorted by you and other gun proponents to mean all guns would be removed from all citizens (gun grabbers). That is absurd and would never happen. Hell if that were the case I’d no longer be able to hunt as I have for some 50 years, something I greatly enjoy.

You have not seen it in action, go down the gun grabber road and you will get all the uglies, "registration - confiscation", ever more complex conditions, having to obtain a firearm safe for storage, subject to random inspections of licencing and storage and immediate confiscation if some trivial detail is out of order, massive fines for owning an old gun from your grandfathers era, immediate confiscation and being charged with firearm offences for carrying a hunting weapon in a car etc etc etc ....

We have this now in OZ, the left over of the Tasmanian scam where a guy who was a simpleton was supposed to have killed a large number of people at Port Arthur yet the details were hushed up and no open trial was conducted. For disarming society we now have rampant gun violence in NSW with drive by shootings and an ever more sophisticated range of handguns imported for criminal gangs who also have turf wars and shootouts.

The last mass shooting here in Sydney was at a western suburbs shopping centre about 20 years ago by a guy called Wade Frankum (do a spoonerism on his name to get the problem) and he killed his first victim in the coffee shop in the shopping centre with a bowie knife.

The end result of the gun grabbers here in OZ is that ethnic gangs have plenty of handguns, bikie gangs have sophisticated weapons to conduct turf wars and criminals performing armed robberies can easily get Glock and similar large magazine handguns while the law abiding folks who used to own a rifle for hunting are prevented from owning a rifle.

In OZ its easier to buy a hot Uzzi or Glock than it is to buy a 444 Marlin or high velocity varmint rifle. If you are into terrorism you can get large calibre machine guns, RPGs, any assault rifle you like, slick large magazine hand guns and so on but if you are an old age pensioner who owns an old 22 rifle you will be treated like a violent criminal, it will be confiscated, you will get dragged through some sordid court case and possibly jailed.

Go down the gun grabber route and you will get to see what we do, an emerging police state where the police and criminals are armed and society is a big free target for both.

[jj2007]

The end result of the gun grabbers here in OZ is that ethnic gangs have plenty of handguns, bikie gangs have sophisticated weapons to conduct turf wars and criminals performing armed robberies...

Wow! That's almost as bad as in the UK (gun-free) or Canada (almost gun-free, compared to U.S. standards)!!

What is strange, though, is that OZ is right in the middle of a bunch of typical EU countries, next to New Zealand and Canada. The correlation between homicides and gun ownership is pretty good, thanks to the U.S. :P