The solution to gun violence in schools.

[MichaelW]

And we are talking about guns. You’re talking about taking them away from law-abiding people, and I’m talking about these people using them to protect themselves and others.

I am confused how the suggestion that America needs stricter gun control is distorted by you and other gun proponents to mean all guns would be removed from all citizens (gun grabbers).

Confused, or just engaging in more distortion? My statement did not specify “all” guns. And as I have repeatedly stated, you cannot use changes in the laws to remove guns from "all citizens”, you can only remove them from the law-abiding “citizens”.

The only other possible solution against school students being slaughtered would be armed guards patrolling the corridors.

This is another distortion. You are representing the choices as being limited to ones that are unlikely to be effective and/or that you are prepared to attack, and ignoring a very wide range of possibilities.

As to teachers carrying guns, that will be a tough one to sale.

Considering the direction that the concealed/open-carry laws have been going, and the tragedies that have occurred in gun-free zones, I think not.

Even so like Sandy Hook a nut isn’t going to enter thru the front door he will shoot out a window and enter or even more frightening just open fire thru classroom windows at the panicking students within. I guess we will have to replace all school windows with bullet proof glass or eliminate windows in classrooms all together to stop that from ever happening.

This should be a no-brainer Bill. We will need to go far beyond bulletproof windows.

[Bill Cravener]

Bill,

Apart from your views on a gun culture which I might add are not without merit, in the immediate term getting the teachers to protect the kids would have to be a priority rather than leaving them as easy targets for loonies and an ongoing justification for the gun grabbers. Make that task of murdering young children a risky business and you will see it drop off. It will not be perfect and it may happen again but making it a risky business has got to be a good first step.

Perhaps so Steve but as I've stated before I really doubt that teachers especially the female ones will be willing to carry.

You and I have been around for quite awhile and I ask myself near daily what has happened to America. We have become a population of paranoid schizophrenics frightened by our own shadows, where slaughter by a gun has become a commonplace event and yet the only way we see to control that fear or to stop the slaughter is for everyone to carry a gun.

It has gotten to the point that we need armed guards and citizens carrying guns in every public place where people gather so that we may feel safe. It has gotten to the point that we see the need to have school teachers carrying guns in the belief that it will keep our kids from being gunned down by a madman. I mean seriously think about it, what does that say about us as a civilized nation. We are the second most violent country on this planet just below that of Africa.

I remember growing up in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s when you could leave your doors unlocked at night, hell many left their doors unlocked when they would go out during daylight hours. I remember those years as a time when folks felt safe and free from any fear of personal harm at least the majority of the populous did. We did not have this fetish for gun ownership back then as we do now. What the hell happened to us?

Why would anyone from overseas wish to live here in America? We have gone fucking insane, believing we are the police of the entire world looking for any cause we deem fit to go to war with another nation. No doubt about it America has gone mad, truly mad, and now it is beginning to come back and bite us. All al-Qaeda or any other terrorist group that wants to see the destruction of America needs to do is to sit back and wait. If this growing obsessive craving for guns isn’t stopped we will soon destroy ourselves.

[Bill Cravener]

The last mass shooting here in Sydney was at a western suburbs shopping centre about 20 years ago by a guy called Wade Frankum (do a spoonerism on his name to get the problem) and he killed his first victim in the coffee shop in the shopping centre with a bowie knife.

I’d rather face a nut holding a knife over a gun any day. I read that the last gun related mass murder in Australia was at Monash University October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang a student shot his classmates and teacher killing two and injuring five. Thats at least 10 years ago. Australia’s stricter gun controls appear to be working quite efficiently. What I’ve managed to find out about your gun restriction is that they are not as stringent as you make them out to be and that there are nearly 1 million gun owners. And by the way what would be important to me is Australians are allowed to own and use firearms for hunting just not with handguns.

I personally would have no problem with Australia’s gun laws. Firearms in Australia are grouped into Categories with different levels of control.

Category A: Rimfire rifles (not semi-automatic), shotguns (not pump-action or semi-automatic), air rifles, and paintball markers. A "Genuine Reason" must be provided for a Category A firearm.

Category B: Centrefire rifles (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901. Apart from a "Genuine Reason", a "Genuine Need" must be demonstrated, including why a Category A firearm would not be suitable.

Category C: Semi-automatic rimfire rifles holding 10 or fewer rounds and pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding 5 or fewer rounds. Category C firearms are strongly restricted: only primary producers, occupational shooters, collectors and some clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.

Category D: Semi-automatic centrefire rifles, pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding more than 5 rounds. Functional Category D firearms are restricted to government agencies and a few occupational shooters. Collectors may own deactivated Category D firearms.

Category H: Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of six months using club handguns, and a minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun.

Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45", currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 handguns that meet the IPSC rules, but larger calibers are not approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests. Category H barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols: magazines are restricted to 10 rounds. Handguns held as part of a collection were exempted from these limits.

Category R/E: Restricted weapons: machine guns, rocket launchers, assault rifles, flame-throwers, anti-tank guns, Howitzers, artillery, etc. can be owned by collectors in some states provided that these weapons have been rendered permanently inoperable. They are subject to the same storage and licensing requirements as fully functioning firearms. Certain Antique firearms can in some states be legally held without licences. In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.

[Bill Cravener]

Wow! That's almost as bad as in the UK (gun-free) or Canada (almost gun-free, compared to U.S. standards)!!

What is strange, though, is that OZ is right in the middle of a bunch of typical EU countries, next to New Zealand and Canada. The correlation between homicides and gun ownership is pretty good, thanks to the U.S. :P

You are so right Jochen but we Americans can not allow facts and logic to get in the way when it comes to guns.

[hutch--]

Bill,

 The "Genuine Reason" and "Genuine Need" criteria as they are applied are sufficient for the vast number of people to be excluded. Once long ago city folks could help friends in the country get rid of feral animals, now its so much hassle no-one bothers. We still have drive by shooting with illegal weapons and turf wars between bikie gangs but then they don't even try to own guns legally. Typically its the police and criminals that have guns in OZ, ordinary people are pissed around so badly they don't bother any longer.

The murder rate has not changed since the old gun laws of long ago, the only difference is the gun grabbers have won and we are all at much higher risk because of it.

With your casual hunting gun usage, they would be confiscated here in OZ.

[dedndave]

take away the guns now
next year, they'll be ordering us to burn books

dictators like the masses to be unarmed and uninformed

[Magnum]

That correlation is probably subject to some conditions.

Let's just look at gun deaths that weren't suicide or accidental.

You have to look at all factors.

I agree that America has way too many guns in general.

Let's look at guns kept by homeowners for home defense or those who like to target shoot on the weekends
or shoot some feral hogs.

I used to do home repair/remodeling and was disturbed at the lack of sense of those who keep loaded guns in plain site.

All guns should be locked up at all times.

Don't read past here Bill. :-)

Then you have some that carry a pistol in their glovebox.

I don't know about anyone else, but dealing with other drivers sometimes can someone to get pretty hot.

In the category for those who should know better.

These happen about 1 % of the time based on my experience.

I was plinking away with my .22 at an indoor range made from an old movie theatre with sand etc.

There was plywood separating the different shooting areas.

I heard a loud boom and looked over to my right to see a piece of plaster falling from the ceiling.

I packed up my stuff and left immediately.

Then there once was a guy who fired off a fully automatic rifle at the pistol range side of the range.

There were signs prohibiting fully automatic weapons.

He was told to leave and banned from coming back.

I lost my focus here and got a little sidetracked.

Outta here,

                    Andy

[MichaelW]

We have become a population of paranoid schizophrenics frightened by our own shadows, where slaughter by a gun has become a commonplace event and yet the only way we see to control that fear or to stop the slaughter is for everyone to carry a gun.

This is a distortion. Schizophrenia is a serious mental disorder and you are implying that a majority of people here suffers from it, when the statistics show a rate of occurrence far, far below this.

It has gotten to the point that we need armed guards and citizens carrying guns in every public place where people gather so that we may feel safe.

Your often repeated “feel safe” is a distortion. People are attempting to be safe, not just feel safe, and this includes you with your shotgun in the corner of your bedroom.

It has gotten to the point that we see the need to have school teachers carrying guns in the belief that it will keep our kids from being gunned down by a madman. I mean seriously think about it, what does that say about us as a civilized nation. We are the second most violent country on this planet just below that of Africa.

What does it matter what it says about us as a civilized nation? You couldn’t find logical arguments to support your position so you decided to play the national shame card? We have the constitution, history, and current reality that we have, and how we rank relative to other countries that do not have a similar constitution, history, and current reality is irrelevant.

I remember growing up in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s when you could leave your doors unlocked at night, hell many left their doors unlocked when they would go out during daylight hours. I remember those years as a time when folks felt safe and free from any fear of personal harm at least the majority of the populous did. We did not have this fetish for gun ownership back then as we do now. What the hell happened to us?

In that era we had a lot of guns, and a lot veterans, including combat veterans, and the criminals knew that trying to victimize one of these veterans could be fatal. The veterans got old and the criminals became bold. People eventually got their fill of being victimized, and recognizing that the police could not be depended on for protection demanded the ability to protect themselves, in high-enough numbers for the law-abiding people to eventually get what they demanded.

[Bill Cravener]

I am not against guns, how many times must I say it? But they are way too easy for anyone, I say anyone, to get hold of here in the states. In Pennsylvania you as a private gun owner can get a permit to sale your guns at a gun show to anyone with no check of the buyer’s background. What type of guns you offer up for sale doesn’t matter. I’ve been to gun shows here in PA and know this as the truth.

Will it take another much larger killing event to bring about change in our gun laws? If someone murdered a hundred school children in a single day with guns would a majority of Americans then agree to stricter gun control? If the numbers are on a truly epic scale perhaps then we will finally say enough. One has to wonder what our national threshold for shame is. I fear that day will come sooner then later where we will find out just what that level must be. It is truly barbaric for a country to come to such a point in order for it to find out the answer to that question.

More guns is not the answer, I mean for christ sakes, we have 300 million of them now. Just how many more will it take before we see that “more guns” is not the answer? God bless America my ass. If there really is a God he must be pissed off at us Americans for letting slaughters such as the Sandy Hook event to happen and to then do nothing to stop it from happening again.

[Bill Cravener]

Some of you are not convinced that America is nuts when it comes to guns?

It should surprise no one that the NRA has recently thrown its weight behind an industry campaign to deregulate and promote the use of silencers. Under the trade banner of the American Silencer Association, manufacturers have come together with the support of the NRA to rebrand the silencer as a “safety device” belonging in every all-American gun closet.

Silencers: The NRA’s latest big lie

[Bill Cravener]

By the way if you don’t believe what is said in that Salon left leaning article link above, here’s a link to the ASA site itself where they make it quite clear this is what they and the NRA’s intentions are.

If these crazies get their way the commonplace slaughter here in the U.S. will be done silently. Bang, bang, bang, bang. . .oops no what I mean is, thup, thup, thup, thup!!

America is sick, very sick!! :icon13:

http://americansilencerassociation.com/

[hutch--]

Bill,

The solution in the US is not "more guns" but a rationalisation of what already exists. Protect the vulnerable, pick up any strays that are no longer used so they don't end up in the wrong hands by amnesties, buy backs and so on. What you cannot afford to lose is your constitutional rights with the second amendment, let the gun grabbers take over and they will confiscate all of your guns, no matter how sensible your usage is.

[K_F]

take away the guns now
next year, they'll be ordering us to burn books

dictators like the masses to be unarmed and uninformed

Dave, that's not true... unless you VOTE for lunatics  ;)

[dedndave]

we get assholes and lunatics no matter how you vote
it takes a certain "power hungry" type personality to even get into politics
and - they control the media well enough that they don't need to burn books
they already have a huge affect on people - just look at Bill   

the way our (or any, for that matter) government works is,
they start with handguns, then step it up over and over
before long, you won't be able to own a pea-shooter

the ability for the masses to own a variety of guns is the only system of checks and balances against tyrany

[K_F]

Ok... Let's look at the extremes

a) Everyone has a gun, obviously not all trained that well - The would be killer probably would come up with a bomb, and maybe attach himself to it. There's little counter measures against this.

b) Nobody can carry a gun. This doesn't stop people from carrying other concealed weapons, but it goes a long way in reducing personal 'mass-murder' via guns.

In either case there is probably very little way to stop the bomber, but I'm sure less guns would give the authorities more time to concentrate on the bomber side of things.
An example would be to go back to the 50's or 60's when society was not that normally aggressive.
 :icon_cool: