Author Topic: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.  (Read 24747 times)

hutch--

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Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« on: September 02, 2012, 10:55:04 PM »
This Guardian article should raise a few eyebrows in the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/sep/02/tony-blair-iraq-war-desmond-tutu

May even offend some of the conservatives in the US.
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anunitu

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 11:24:50 PM »
War for some is ALWAYS a money making opportunity. If ever you heard the song by Bob Dylan "Masters of war" it is the most straight forward  condemnation of what wars are really about.

Lyrics below.

"Masters Of War"

Come you masters of war
You that build the big guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks.

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly.

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain.

You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion'
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud.

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins.

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do.

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul.

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soonI will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.

 

anunitu

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2012, 01:17:11 AM »
I read all the comments to the story,and one thing I did not see. There were the arguments that war is needed to keep the peace,that there will always be war. But no real condemnation of WAR itself..War is never an answer,it is a last resort for people and nations that have no solutions,so a war will take peoples minds off their absolute inability to govern and find solutions that move us forward into a Bright future.

K_F

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2012, 02:44:46 AM »
Tutu should clean up his own backyard first before having a go at others... Him and Nelson Mandela have very little to say about the ongoing disaster in SA ??
I'm afraid they are both big disappointments and as supposed leaders.. they do nothing !!!  :eusa_clap:
Don't worry about zuma, he's nothing more than a un-prosecuted criminal.

The funny thing is that 'juju', ex-ANC youth (IE: Hitler Jugen, but of a darker shade) league leader (cum lunatic) Julius Malema, is now squawking that the black man had it better under apartheid, than today under the ANC....  :biggrin:
'Sire, Sire!... the peasants are Revolting !!!'
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mywan

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2012, 11:44:35 AM »
As far as the belief that Iraq had WMD, it was a near universal belief long before Bush took office. To say that Bush or Blair lied and fabricated this is simply false. Saddam actually wanted the world to believe they had WMD. It his mistaken estimation it actually made Iraq safer from invasion from the outside world. Here are Clinton administration quotes on snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

Bottom line is that to characterize the belief Iraq had WMD as a "lie" by Bush or Blair to sell a war is simply false. Those dissenting voices over invading Iraq were based on arguments totally unrelated to the belief that Saddam had WMD. Of course the accusation of "lying" became an effective political tool after the fact, just as WMD was Bush's, honestly believed by everyone long before Bush took office, card to justify invading. The aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorist by Saddam was basically completely limited to allowing them to check into the Baghdad hospital for treatment.

Given this context of belief in the years prior to Bush the notion of putting Bush and/or Blair on trial is pretty much off the table. However, Bush and/or many officials in the Bush administration also almost certainly had ulterior motives for invading, which had nothing to do with oil. The war for oil argument doesn't hold water, much less oil. During the Clinton administration a right wing think tank wrote a thesis on how to stabilize the middle east. This involved building a functional and successful democracy right in the middle of the middle east. This involves many of the same people who became officials in the Bush administration.

The manner in which the invasion was executed is a fairly clear indication that the democratization of the middle east, as outlined by the right wing think tank, was the primary objective, rather than WMD itself. This of course did not change the fact that it was fully believed that finding WMD was the easy part. I'll not go into the details of the invasion strategy, but even playing a war game against a computer AI the AI is smarter than that. If WMD was the primary target the entire strategy would have looked entirely different. A more honestly damaging accusation of Bush and officials is the destructive tactics used against dissenters during his administration, and circumventing legal and privacy restrictions on the government.

The failure to find any WMD just became the expedient political attack tool after the fact, while both sides continue to be destructive towards the checks and balances that were supposed to keep our government more honest.

anunitu

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 12:21:21 PM »
There is the fact that Saddam worked for us for a time,against Iran. The US has a bad habit of doing in their once puppets. Look at Noriega,he was our guy until he ended up having us screwing him. The biggest problem
our country has is we keep trying to interfere in other governments,even when they don't want us doing that.
A lot of the things that have come to pass are because we ended up pissing off a LOT of radical crazy's for our interference,and down right stupidity in how we did these things.  If a country wants to become democratic,they will find a way to do it on their own,like we did in our beginning. We can not jam it down their throats simply because we demand they need it. 

hutch--

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 01:47:55 PM »
Belief and fact are very different matters, it was common knowledge around the rest of the world that Iraq was a 3rd world dictatorship with out of date Russian weaponry that was about 30 years old. That they had managed to scrape together a pile of old Scud missiles was hardly a reason to suggest that the west was in imminent danger of nuclear attack from Iraq. The Israelis bombed their partially built nuclear reactor back in the 1980s.

The only real loss was the credibility of Colin Powell what had had an impeccable military career until he stood up in the UN and bullsh*tted about the evidence of Saddam's pending nuclear attack. I always liked Colin Powell and was very disappointed that he was dragged into this trash when it was blatantly obvious that the rest of the world (Except the UK and OZ) knew better.

The culprits at the time were Blair, Bush and our own home groan "Little Johnny Howard", all of whom I see as war criminals responsible for the deaths of many thousands of Iraqis. I guess they were truly liberated as they were sent to meet Allah, women and children included.

Tutu is right that the world is a less safe place following the invasion and occupation of Iraq and this much we DO know for sure, Howard, Bush and Blair lied about the WMDs to justify a war that came close to genocide. That all three of them have passed into political history is a good thing but dragging them before a Hague war crimes tribunal would be an even better result. It would tell that massive number of pissed off people in the middle east that no-one should ever be allowed to massacre people for political ends.
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anunitu

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 09:53:04 PM »
One thing that has always bothered me is we can't seem to get out of the "Door to door convert the unbelievers style of being democratic" It is kind of like those groups that come to your door,and will not even listen when you tell them your not interested. Our America seems to have turned "Freedom and Democracy" into a religious mania type thing. It might not work for everyone. Voodoo came from the combining of old world Christian beliefs with Native beliefs. So we end up with "Kinda" democracy mixed with their original culture.

hutch--

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 11:02:52 PM »
I basically agree with that view, I am a Free Western Democracy man myself tinged with a broad streak of lasseiz faire capitalism but as normal, it translates badly to other cultures and countries. Modern Russians don't want western democracy, they want to know where their next feed is coming from, this appears to be why Putin is doing OK at the moment. China was never a democracy, it is an ancient culture that has a flavour of communism overlayed onto it and after it flopped at the end of Mao's cultural revolution, they have a mix of capitalism for economic matters and and old style of 20th century communism for political matters.

Trying to inflict Coca Cola style democracy on the middle east is about as sensible as implementing Sharia law in New York. Feudal Europe enshrined the model of powerful leaders who protected their people and while people of European descent have long ago left that model behind, it is a model that works in other parts of the world. Pseudo "shock horror" about how some tinpot dictator runs his country is little better than comparing two incompatible political systems.

Take the Kingdom of Bhutan, the locals WANT their king and the criterion is not how much money you can make in that society but how happy the population is in that society. Can you imagine the banking sector of the UK being happy with that economic model ?  :P
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satpro

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 04:40:35 AM »
As far as the belief that Iraq had WMD, it was a near universal belief long before Bush took office. To say that Bush or Blair lied and fabricated this is simply false. Saddam actually wanted the world to believe they had WMD.

Bottom line is that to characterize the belief Iraq had WMD as a "lie" by Bush or Blair to sell a war is simply false.

However, Bush and/or many officials in the Bush administration also almost certainly had ulterior motives for invading, which had nothing to do with oil. The war for oil argument doesn't hold water, much less oil.

Oh, it was about oil allright (not so much Iraq's oil but a future pipeline through Iraq) and a solution to getting it.  Iraq only had old Russian crap, our old mustard, and a rag-tag army--and we knew it.  The US (which couldn't actually convince the world anyway) had journalists comfortably and conveniently in place for all of it.  We know now there were plans in place to invade Iraq while Clinton was in office.  We just needed a good reason to "wag the dog," so along comes 911 and the 17 hijackers' pictures that were posted before lunch that morning.  It would be hard (if not impossible) to convince many of us that 911 was in fact the real deal.  There's simply too much evidence to the contrary.

So, should there be trials?  Of course.  Will there be trials?  Of course not.

Gunther

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2012, 06:40:01 AM »
Hi satpro,

So, should there be trials?  Of course.  Will there be trials?  Of course not.

Right. But the question is: Why won't we see any trials?

Gunther
You have to know the facts before you can distort them.

satpro

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2012, 08:24:27 AM »
Hi Gunther,


Aw, you know, everything in this country (world) is driven by money and the old "You have something on me, but I have something on you" mentality.  It's how these guys hold on to power.  I've begun to notice that, for example, and this is off the topic, most large corporations do business the exact same way.  Is Coke really that much different than Pepsi?  Are they competitors?  Well, when you consider (I read the names a few years ago) that at least 20 people sat on the boards of both companies you begin to think not.  One thing's for sure--neither would accept "Gunther Cola" in the marketplace and would work together (not that we would ever know it) to trash your good name and product.  Nothing would be out of bounds.  Why is everything made in China?  Because it's cheaper?  Think about this...


Some $200 (factory cost) electronic device is mass-produced.  Let's say 50 people work 10 hours a day using sophisticated machines to produce 1000 devices. Hardly mass-production.  At $10 an hour you've spent $5,000 raw, or $5 per unit in labor.  Let's throw in another 20% for some benefits/taxes here in the US.  $12/hr., right?  $6000 is $6.00 per unit.  At $1/hr in China (ouch! but who knows what it really is?) your raw labor is $500 ($.50 per) and we won't throw in the 20%.  So by saving $11.00 an hour in a third-world factory you reduce the raw labor cost of a $200 item a mere $5.50, or 2.75%.  More importantly, you've removed $5000-$6000 from the local economy each day, and that money would later filter both up and downstream in all directions, enriching the life of everyone who touched that money in the process.


Now, play with the numbers and you'll begin to see how truly greedy and secretive these people are.  What if 50 workers could produce 1500, 2000, or even 10000 of this item each day?  That could make the difference PENNIES, not dollars!  What if we paid them the $8.00 minimum wage?


I don't know, and I doubt it, but what if they could only produce 500 a day with the sophisticated production machinery?  Even at half-production it's only an $11.00 difference on $200.  5.5% is hardly a reason to close the factory, pack up the manufacturing equipment, and ship it lock, stock, & barrel overseas.  50 people keep their jobs and spend it all.  The point is, and I learned this from a "socialist" Econ professor (he was brilliant, by the way) back in '82--it's all a big lie.  And everyone has adopted it.  Do you think they pass the savings on to us?  It's sort of a rhetorical question.  The answer is NO!  They get to keep the difference.


I've been in business most of my life, and different ones at that, and although I have never experienced factory economics--numbers can be very deceiving to the uninformed.  They simply don't want us to know.  If we learn the truth the upper hand is gone.


Same with politics...


Bert


P.S. This is a simple view of a complex idea, but the numbers are crazy on a large scale.  I believe the point is valid.  One last thing:  People confuse our National Debt with the trade imbalance.  They are separate things.  The trillion+ we owe China is not for all the crap we buy from them in stores.  That's all paid as it's purchased.  It (the debt) is because our govt doesn't take in enough money in taxes to pay its bills--so they borrow.  So, why did Gunther Electronics close its doors and move to China, robbing the govt of badly-needed revenue?  Three words--Richard Nixon, 1971.  It's a 40-year-old poorly thought plan Reagan later called "trickle-down economics."  And no president will touch it with a 10-foot pole.  Why not?  Because "they (China) now have something on us (USA)."  And many of us have watched it unfold before our very eyes.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 10:25:13 AM by satpro »

K_F

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2012, 03:30:33 PM »
The only real loss was the credibility of Colin Powell what had had an impeccable military career until he stood up in the UN and bullsh*tted about the evidence of Saddam's pending nuclear attack. I always liked Colin Powell and was very disappointed that he was dragged into this trash when it was blatantly obvious that the rest of the world (Except the UK and OZ) knew better.
Ja, I was disappointed with his contribution here as well, but to his credit he resigned, which was a big slap in the face for Bush and his cronies. It looked like his only avenue to get out, and 'tell the truth', which worked pretty well as I can see. Although it probably messed up his career. You could see that he wasn't  happy when regurgitating the bush bullsh1t. Condoleezza was more than happy to lie to the world.. ??

Another thing to consider with this whole story is Tutu's role... This is a Nobel Peace winner and religious leader advocating a type of retribution under the guise of moral conscious. I think he's clearly 'stepped out of the cloth' here. Maybe he should go a little further back and bring many others to trial - what's good for the goose is good for the gander. He's now no better than the polititians of the day.
'Sire, Sire!... the peasants are Revolting !!!'
'Yes, they are.. aren't they....'

K_F

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2012, 03:47:29 PM »
Right. But the question is: Why won't we see any trials?
Plausible Deniability - The polititians back door.
Only generals and lower ranks go on trial for executing their 'superiors' orders.

It's be great to see this happen as it will open up a nice can-o-worms, and we can haul any living politit criminal into dock.
I'd love it, I'll take my box of rotten eggs and tomatoes to court  :icon_mrgreen:
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satpro

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Re: Tony Blair should face trial over Iraq war, says Desmond Tutu.
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 07:28:52 PM »
Right. But the question is: Why won't we see any trials?
Plausible Deniability - The polititians back door.
Only generals and lower ranks go on trial for executing their 'superiors' orders.

This is very true.  All of these guys (Bush, Blair, Howard) have a built-in way out.  We will never see them pay.  In his (Bush) defense--he was "only" our President.  Imagine a puppet and then picture his VP.  It is a small window into the larger corporate picture to which all modern US Presidents are indebted to.  Generals are literally the "french fry associates" who take the blame when the floor near the register is greasy--and someone slips.  It's very hard to accept or believe when you program in assembly and live by logic.  Or... you're just a regular person and you don't watch FOX News.  :biggrin: