Author Topic: Scientists in Italy, beware!  (Read 8944 times)


dedndave

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 03:16:07 PM »
i saw that
italy has reverted to the days of Galileo

even so, if misconduct is indeed proven, they should reprimand the city official
not the 6 scientists who were merely doing what they were told
and - none of them can accurately predict or control nature - DOH !

hutch--

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 04:13:58 PM »
I have read the report, sound like a farce.
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jj2007

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 04:42:05 PM »
Italian justice is indeed a shame, incredibly slow first of all. They won't go to jail, however. The next instance will revert the sentence.

K_F

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2012, 04:19:13 AM »
Being Italian his defense would be that it was an... 'act of God'...

Insurance companies and the Vatican would love him, and he'll be pardoned  :bgrin:
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jj2007

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2012, 05:02:17 AM »
Being Italian his defense would be that it was an... 'act of God'...

That is indeed what one blogger wrote here: That first of all those with good connections to God should be thrown into jail. If only a small percentage of what the Vatican says is true, then they must have known about the earthquake, and failed to warn the population :greensml:

dedndave

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2012, 06:15:09 AM »
they should have warned the people with, "if you build crappy buildings on fault-lines, god is gonna get angry"

on a follow-up, i read somewhere that 4 other scientists had quit their jobs
not city-level scientists, but Itialian state-level scientists

Gunther

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2012, 06:39:00 AM »
Hi Dave,

on a follow-up, i read somewhere that 4 other scientists had quit their jobs
not city-level scientists, but Itialian state-level scientists

is that a wonder?

Gunther
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Drakasm

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 10:07:20 PM »
They accused the scientists because they let the information to the public arrived by non-experts.  :shock:

Part of the responsibility is of the government that not included in the fees Significant risks someone who can
adequately communicate the danger.

Is easy to imagine the impact of this story on all those who are called to take responsibility in these areas considered to be the pillars of a modern Civil Protection.

Who is required to evaluate end to raise the alert level to the maximum whenever the forecast models provide diverse scenarios, generating an exponential growth of alarms that will cause absolute distrust of those who emits or panic among the population.  :eusa_boohoo:

xanatose

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 05:33:31 PM »
Two possibilities:

1. If the scientist did had the information and choose to lessen the impact  of the information (fraud)  or proceed to give false information without actually doing an investigation (negligence) they should be in jail. And since the crime (fraud or negligence) did cause death (of  people that would otherwise taken additional measures to stay alive) then the involuntary manslaughter verdict was indeed correct.  Irrelevant if the decision was popular or not.

2. But if the scientist actually did the investigation (thus no negligence) and their conclusion was done on good faith (they believed it was correct, thus no fraud) then the verdict was incorrect. (As stupidity is not yet illegal).

Since the whole information of the case is not present at the article, there is no way to know if its case #1 or case #2.

dedndave

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 02:30:23 AM »
i don't think you can hold anyone responsible for a natural disaster
it's a bit like shooting the messenger

xanatose

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2012, 11:38:36 AM »
i don't think you can hold anyone responsible for a natural disaster
it's a bit like shooting the messenger

What if the messenger lied to you (fraud) or instead of delivering the message right away went to get drunk for a day (negligence)?

In the case of the scientist.
- If they didn't do the investigation before coming with the findings, is negligence.
- If they did the investigation but choose to soften the message, then its fraud.
- If they did their work and made a mistake or had wrong findings then they are innocent.

But, unless you got the proof, there is no way of knowing which case is which.

dedndave

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 01:39:57 PM »
i would not call it fraud if they "soften" the message
especially if they were told to do so by someone else

from what i have seen of how government works, i envision a scenerio like this...

the scientists file a report that is alarming - scientists are often likely to be overly alarming - lol
the mayor (or someone) says, "you can't go public with that - we'll have panic on our hands"
so - the scientists or, more likely the govt official they report to, toned it down a bit
if it weren't for this type of mechanism, what possible motive would the scientists have ?

then - the disaster strikes, and they need a scape-goat
so - they blame the scientists
this is probably the same mayor or whoever that told them to tone it down in the first place

that's how government works

xanatose

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 04:06:03 PM »
If you soften the message, then yes you are committing fraud. Which is passing something that you know is untrue as if it where true.

If they where told to do so, it only means that there where other people acting badly.  The excuse is the equivalent of "We where just following orders."

Doing something wrong, because you where told to do so, does not legitimize your actions on any way. It only states that you where not the only one acting badly. Of course, it you where put in a position in which your life depended on your actions, thats a different story, as your decision where made during duress.

MichaelW

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Re: Scientists in Italy, beware!
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2012, 08:53:05 AM »
For many people losing their job is a serious problem, so decisions made under such a threat are also decisions made under duress.
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