Author Topic: Green hypocrisy in Germany  (Read 5723 times)

caballero

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Green hypocrisy in Germany
« on: February 10, 2022, 08:34:27 PM »
Last week, the regional government of Kassel approved the installation of 18 wind turbines in the Reinhardswald, a forest in central Germany whose beauty makes it popularly considered the setting for the Grimm brothers' tales. The Greens approve. [ironic] :greenclp:[/ironic]

https://twitter.com/luis_i_gomez/status/1140866493766361088

https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 10:44:57 PM by caballero »
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HSE

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2022, 03:01:22 AM »
The bigger problem with forest is not wind turbine itself, but the wires. You have to destroy the forest to mantain a clean area for wires.

The irony is that wind turbines are operative for 20 years, but old forest will take 80 years to cover the area in previous way. Not so problematic in forest under clearcut management in plain landscapes.

From landscape view is also a disaster. You can mount turbines without much problem, but you can't dismount easily because structural corrosion make that very dangerous. Then turbines after finish operative life remains useless, perhaps expecting they broke and fall.

Perhaps there is better way to make things, but is not so evident now.

Sure JJ can explain a little  :biggrin:
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caballero

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2022, 04:08:40 AM »
> Sure JJ can explain a little
 :greensml: No doubt

There is a simple way to fix the problem: look the other way, "que yo ya me lo he llevao"
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jj2007

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2022, 06:36:34 AM »
The bigger problem with forest is not wind turbine itself, but the wires. You have to destroy the forest to mantain a clean area for wires.
...
Sure JJ can explain a little  :biggrin:

Any reference to that? I've never heard about it, of course you may be right.

A little quiz: How many trees are there per inhabitant in Germany?
A  5
B  25
C  100
D 500
E 1000


caballero

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2022, 06:54:48 AM »
The meaning of this little quiz is that since there are many trees per inhabitant in Germany, it is not a drama cutting down a few hundred or thousands of them in the name of... ecology?
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jj2007

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2022, 07:33:48 AM »
The meaning of this little quiz is that since there are many trees per inhabitant in Germany, it is not a drama cutting down a few hundred or thousands of them in the name of... ecology?

You have a tendency to distort facts, caballero.

Despite how small windmills look far away, the truth is that they are very tall and have long blades, which are a trap barrier for birds and insects, including those birds in danger of extinction, that if you killed one of them, you would go to prison for it , but if you kill them through a windmill, that's a good thing.
Re birds, that's utter nonsense. Ordinary cats kill more than 10,000 times as many birds as windmills.

HSE

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2022, 07:46:00 AM »
Any reference to that? I've never heard about it, of course you may be right.

If I found again I will post. Happen that some areas are protected just because they can't be exploted in traditional ways. Now with the "Climate Change drama" nobody pay attention to what is destroyed. Who can opose to "green energy". I pressume is not Germany case but still is of concern everywhere.
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caballero

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2022, 07:47:29 AM »
Cats killing birds is a natural process, while windmills killing birds is not. Are we talking here about ecology?

I would like to see how a cat is able to kill a bird like this, a windmill can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPDVLdj6sLY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed8rG86VAL8
(The falcon has caught a cat)


nature destruction
The Reinhardswald is home to a large variety of species. Protected birds, bats and millions of insects are shredded by the spinning windmill blades. Hectares of forest are cleared and compacted, the groundwater is endangered - an intact ecosystem is permanently destroyed.
14
kilometers of road construction
...are at least necessary in order to only be able to build the first 18 systems. These roads are up to 17.50 m wide, must be compacted to withstand heavy loads and must be kept free of vegetation over the entire period of operation.
241
meters height
... measures a single large wind turbine and is therefore 84 meters higher than Cologne Cathedral and 41 meters higher than the Main Tower. Even the gondola is at a height of 166 meters.
150
meters in diameter
...has the rotor of a wind turbine. It covers an area of ??17,660 m² - gigantic and has never been used before. (Type Vestas V150 5.6 MW).
13000
truck rides
...are just for the first 20 foundations, cranes and plant parts
necessary (= there and back). Clearing, access roads, alternative and storage areas require many thousands more trips in the forest.
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TimoVJL

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2022, 09:00:38 AM »
So big glass fences are not safe too.
May the source be with you

LiaoMi

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2022, 10:17:35 AM »
Last week, the regional government of Kassel approved the installation of 18 wind turbines in the Reinhardswald, a forest in central Germany whose beauty makes it popularly considered the setting for the Grimm brothers' tales. The Greens approve. [ironic] :greenclp:[/ironic]

https://twitter.com/luis_i_gomez/status/1140866493766361088

https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/

Hi caballero,

my electricity bills are huge  :undecided:

Germany shuts down two more nuclear power plants - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/31/germany-shuts-down-half-of-its-remaining-nuclear-plants

The growth rate in alternative energy is slow, many Germans don't do laundry, don't use the dishwasher, don't even take a shower to save on electricity. All hope is in thermonuclear energy:

U.K. JET Fusion Reactor Produces More Five-Second Reactions After 25 Years -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMuOaTqdp4c
http://news.newenergytimes.net/2022/02/09/u-k-jet-fusion-reactor-after-25-years-produces-more-five-second-reactions/

People have practically killed the entire planet, but no one wants to see it. Just look at the difference between pictures from Google - https://www.ecowatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/1702257359-origin.jpg
Microplastics in the oceans, ecosystems are suffocated by exhaust gases. Take the pandemic for example ... The month of the global lockdown cleared the air so quickly. Animals returned to their habitats. And even noticing such a difference, people stepped over and went their own way. I have biochemist friends who are working on new food sources, they have a probabilistic forecast that specifies that without genetic modification, people will have global hunger.


hutch--

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2022, 06:06:09 PM »
RE : Clearling large areas of forest for power poles and wires, I forget the location here in OZ  but a local council allowed a power company to absolutely massacre an old growth forest to route poles and wire through, in this case about 200 metres wide. Later some folks sued the power company that then went broke and the old growth forest was ruined for at least some hundreds of years.

I have nothing against renewable energy when its done right but this was a phukup that should never have been done. Find other locations that are high enough and have enough wind. Try northern Tasmania, its the only place I have ever seen where it rains sideways, the winds are so strong. Must be many megawatts being wasted there.
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jj2007

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2022, 07:40:50 PM »
absolutely massacre an old growth forest to route poles and wire through, in this case about 200 metres wide

For wind or conventional energy?

caballero

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2022, 08:09:37 PM »
When I was a kid, they wanted to build a nuclear power plant at a certain point in Spain. People from the area came out en masse to protest against it. They carried a candle and their motto was that they preferred it before nuclear energy. Was it really so? Absolutely not, what they really meant was that they wanted to continue consuming electricity at cheap prices, but to move the nuclear power station to another site. But the people in that other place would also behave the same way. Where do we get it then?

If we citizens, do not behave like adults, politicians will treat us like stupid.

After the recent problem at a nuclear power plant in Japan, the effect was to create a general mood against nuclear power. Consequently, we shut down all nuclear power plants and create "green energy", without taking into account the possible adverse effects of this so-called "green energy". If you acted in a reasonable way, and allowed neutral experts to work, it is possible that the most reasonable thing would be to have a mix between nuclear and wind / solar energy, etc.

When we notably increase the population, when it was decreasing, it will be necessary to understand that if we all consume energy, it is most likely that we will need more of it. Where do we get it? More power plants will have to be built which will probably destroy the environment. If we are willing to face this notable increase in population, not showering daily may not be an excessive tribute to pay.

If we make extensive use of the electric car, where will we get the necessary excess electricity? What will happen to the batteries once they reach the end of their cycle?

Transgenic food? No thanks, although I'm afraid that won't be up to me.
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TimoVJL

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2022, 08:33:12 PM »
If world wants electric vehicles, every country needs more cheap electric power.
It's time to build atomic power again to some countries, so they don't depend any bully countries from energy and have independent power sources.
Germany is a small example of green nuts, who tried to make world greenier, but not thinking further of solutions

May the source be with you

jj2007

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Re: Green hypocrisy in Germany
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2022, 09:50:55 PM »
Atomic energy is far too expensive to be a solution. It survives in UK and France due to massive subsidies paid with taxpayers's money. Plus, there is no final storage, nowhere, and there is the risk of proliferation.

Wind energy is by far the cheapest now, followed by photovoltaics. And it gets cheaper every year - there is no way back.